Date   

Wiki Updated #Wiki

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

The Wiki now has a link to a page that member's can click to view a listing of the ECIR subgroups.  The list is sorted into subgroups a member has joined and groups the member can join.  This page can also be accessed via the Subgroups button in the navigation bar.   

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- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link doesn't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)
Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

ECIR Archivist March,2004

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats


ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance - Timeline Photos #FACTS

main@ECIR.groups.io Integration <main@...>
 

Timeline Photos

By ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

To learn more about the hoof, download the proceedings for NO Laminitis! 2013 and NO Laminitis! 2015 for free at ecirhorse.org


Re: Updated Tena and Felix files uploaded for feedback

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

Hi Tena,

I took a quick peek at your folder and did a little cleaning up.  You had made several subfolders so I moved Felix's case history to the right folder and put in the subfolders for blood work and hay analysis (should you ever need them). 

Unfortunately, this means the link to your case history has changed:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tena%20and%20Felix .

You will need to change your link in your signature for it to work properly again.  


--

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link doesn't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)
Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

ECIR Archivist March,2004

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats


Re: Signature test

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

Yay Beth!  

It works just fine.  Your case history is loaded now all you need to do is upload your photos.  It gets a little tricky but you have the link so you know where to put them.  We just need them named a certain way so they are presented in order and aren't a random bunch of hoof pictures. Directions on exactly how to name them are in the page that is linked to above.  If you haven't taken pictures yet use the directions of how to take good photos (on that same page).  

--

- ​LeeAnne, Newmarket, Ontario - Email me (If link doesn't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)
Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

ECIR Archivist March,2004

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage Database?

View the Database Stats


Re: Updated Tena and Felix files uploaded for feedback

Maggie
 

Hi Tena,

What a great job you've done with Felix!  You've had a heck of a ride with him in the short period of time that you've owned him!  Good for you for hanging in there, Felix is lucky to have found you!

Let's see if I can answer your questions.

Vet seems to think Felix might have EMS, is that related to IR? Would I need to run more tests? Is EMS a disease or metabolism? 

Equine Metabolic Syndrome (EMS) is another term for IR.  No, you don't need to run more tests to diagnose it, but in future labs I would definitely add a glucose.  It will give you better results from the IR calculator and it's also helpful in evaluating if the blood was handled correctly.  More reading about IR on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/insulin-resistance 

So you have a diagnosis of IR.  EMS (IR) is a metabolic condition that will require careful dietary management for the rest of Felix's life, and adding exercise when he is recovered from the laminitis will go a long way in keeping the IR in check as well.  

Also, to keep in mind going forward is that there is some indication that the oxidative stress in horses with long term IR can contribute to the development of PPID (Cushing's).  PPID is a benign growth in the a part of the pituitary gland called the pars intermedia.  It's controlled by the use of a drug called pergolide.  Fall is a time of year in which all horses have a elevated rise in their ACTH, but PPID horses have an exaggerated and polonged rise in their ACTH which puts them at risk for fall laminitis.  Read more about the seasonal rise here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease/seasonal-rise 

Felix's ACTH in August of 2016 was 53.2 (normal 9-35).  Though 53 is "normal" during the seasonal rise, August is the early part of the rise and this result raises my antennae to be on the watch for early PPID.  His ACTH came down very nicely in his January lab work, which is to be expected since we are approaching the seasonal low time of year when the ACTH is at it's lowest.  The development of PPID is something to keep in your mind as you move forward with Felix.  Some horses, in the early part of the disease, only need pergolide during the seasonal rise.  

You will want to be a keen observer for the subtle symptoms of PPID and also check Felix's ACTH in the early part of the rise every year henceforth.  Read more about PPID and it's symptoms on our website here:  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/cushing-s-disease 

Since the Insulin numbers looked good, I'm hoping the unsoaked Bermuda has acceptable sugar/starch content.

The only way to know is to test the hay.  Not only is it important to know the sugar and starch content, but IR and PPID horses need tight mineral balancing, and only way to do that is to know what's in you hay.  The Copper Complete is a great supplement, but it may or may not completely balance your hay according to the ratios recommend by Dr Kellon.

Look in this file for ideas on how to find and store low sugar/starch hay:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together  Scroll down to "Hay--finding and storing pdf"  It's the 12th file down.

I've been supplementing with the Ontario Dehy Timothy Cubes as much as I can afford. Also in my quests to find low sugar/starch foods, the lowest consistent sugars have been in the Mountain Sunrise Alfalfa Pellets, which are steam bound. The Timothy pellets are usually higher, should I switch to the alfalfa pellets as a carrier for Copper Complete?

Are you using the Ontaro Dehy Timothy Balance (ODTB) cubes?  They are guaranteed to be under 10% sugar + starch and are balanced by Dr Kellon.  OD also makes a Timothy cube that is not guaranteed to be under 10% sugar + starch and the minerals are not balanced by Dr Kellon.  The ODTB's are packaged by Triple Crown in the US and are called Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes.  The label stitched into the bottom of the bag is lavender and the bag looks like this:  https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/timothy-balance-cubes/ 

Many of us use the ODTB's (moistened) as a carrier for our supplements.  I have fouond that about 1.25 cups of very warm water added to about 2 cups of ODTB's causes them to "dissolve" into a nice sift fluffy mass of finely chopped hay making a perfect supplement carrier.  Some horses like them wetter, some like them drier.  You may need to experiment a bit with the water to cube ratio to see what Felix likes.  If you use the ODTB's for your carrier you don't need the MS alfalfa pellets or timothy pellets.  Since the sugar/starch varies from batch to batch, the only way to know if those are safe is to buy a large amount ant test a batch from several bags with the same lot #.  In the long run, much less time and trouble to use the ODTB's.

I also have a friend with a pasture sound recovered founder horse who swears by Lakin Lites, says her horse didn't begin to recover and be healthy until she switched. I don't like the molasses as a binder, and also have read that alfalfa should be fed in low percentages. But is it harmful to feed small amounts of alfalfa? Is the main concern the iron overload? How do small amounts of Alfalfa negatively affect a horse? All I have read is that some horses have adverse reactions with not much explanation.

I would avoid the Lakin Lite, both for the alfalfa and the molasses. Yes, some horses, especially IR horse do not do well with alfalfa.  Unfortunately, we just do not know why yet.  Here's an article by Dr Kellon for you to read:  https://uckeleequine.wordpress.com/2016/01/24/alfalfa-and-the-ir-horse/ 

Lots of IR horses are iron overloaded.  That's part of the reason why really tight mineral balancing is important for them.  More reading about iron overload can be found in our Iron Overload files here:  

My farrier has suggested beet pulp, but the numbers I have found state that beet pulp is higher in ESC/starch than the plain alfalfa pellets.

Beet pulp, when properly prepared. is a great low glycemic food to use as a supplement carrier.  It needs to be rinsed, soaked and rinsed again to remove surface contaminants (dirt/iron) and any remaining sugar.  There are a couple of BP analyses in our files here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds   Again, though, the ODTB's make a great carrier.  Low sugar starch (under 10% combined) hay should be the mainstay of Felix's diet.  He doesn't need any other feed except a low sugar starch carrier for his supplements (minerals, flax and vitamin E).  

Should I do a hay analysis on a single or a couple different bales, thinking that they are all similar in this region? 

Since the sugar and starch can be so variable, this is not going to be much help to you.  It can help with a "best guess" for mineral balancing, but does not guarantee that the next batch of hay you get will be low in sugar and starch.  The only way to make untested hay safer is to soak it for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  

OK, I think that answers all of your questions.  You can always ask more!  I saw a couple of things in your CH that I want to address as well.

1)  It looks like you have started to turn Felix out on 1/4 acre pasture, but I don't see in your CH if he is in a closed muzzle for that turnout.  The sugar/starch content of grass can be quite high and quite variable.  He should only be turned out, if grass is available, in a closed muzzle.  Anything else is playing Russian roulette!  

2)  I don't see in your CH that Felix is getting any Vitamin E.  Is that correct?  To replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass cured into hay, any horse on a hay only diet should be getting 2-4 oz ground flax seed (you've got that covered!) and 1000IU's/500 lbs BW per day of Vitamin E.  Lots of us use the human grade gel caps for this.  Just make sure that oil (usually soy) is listed in the ingredients on the bottle.  Vitamin E needs to be in contact with oil for proper absorption.

3)  I got a chuckle over your comments about treats.  NONE, NEVER, NO, NO, NO.  Horses don't need treats, but we humans feel better giving them, LOL!  We do have some safe treat ideas and recipes in our files if you ever feel the urge or need ideas for training treats.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Treats%20for%20Horses 

You are doing a great job with Felix Tena!  Even if you don't write it up (though that would be great!) your story with Felix is already a success story!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response


Re: Hank cushings

Jade
 

Hi Jaini, 

hanks ACTH levels were 86 pg/ml. 

we didn't include an insulin test for Hank, should I have that done now we know he has cushings? What diet should I be starting him on? He's at pasture, would a diet similar to my laminatic horse cookie be ok whilst I make arrangements for a proper nutrition annalysis? My other horse is stabled, on soaked hay, Carol leytons laminitis mix, salt, magnesium, Apple cider vinegar, vitamin e, equine chai, gastro coat, and 1 cup of hygain zero. Is this suitable to get Hank started on some supplements or should I wait until I have something tailored to him? 

Thank you. 

--
Jade

December 2016, Adelaide Hills, SA, Australia

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jade%20and%20Cookie

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2211

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2217

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2218








Re: compounding pharmacy

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Gail,

I have been using Pet Health since 2014 for Pergolide capsules. They have been wonderful to work with and the shipping is always quick.

Hope that helps.
Stephanie
--
Stephanie & King
October 2014
Oregon
Case History 


Re: Updated Tena and Felix files uploaded for feedback

 

Thank you all for the kind feedback. I am very grateful to this site, Dr. Kellon, Lavinia, and my own farrier, as they are the sole reasons Felix isn't fertilizing cactus. He is finally very comfortable and I am excited and anxious to see how far back he can come! 


Lavinia, yes the radiographs were taken this time in boots with some kind of straps that caused the odd shadows, rather than the wooden blocks from last time. He tends to have a slight pulse on both fores, never on hinds, and some days it is a little easier to find than others. It makes sense to me that it could still be damage from the sinking. Vet noted slight heat in one fore as well, though that wasn't as apparent to me. I look forward to receiving your mark-ups, and please note that the newest hoof pics were taken after latest trim, which was done after radiographs.


Blood work is in and Case History is updated, thanks Paula for the tips! I used IR calculator as well. Vet seems to think Felix might have EMS, is that related to IR? Would I need to run more tests? Is EMS a disease or metabolism? Since the Insulin numbers looked good, I'm hoping the unsoaked Bermuda has acceptable sugar/starch content. I don't have room to store a squeeze, so am continuously hunting for sellers who test hay, but no such luck in Arizona. Anyone have any tips out here? I've been supplementing with the Ontario Dehy Timothy Cubes as much as I can afford. Also in my quests to find low sugar/starch foods, the lowest consistent sugars have been in the Mountain Sunrise Alfalfa Pellets, which are steam bound. The Timothy pellets are usually higher, should I switch to the alfalfa pellets as a carrier for Copper Complete? I also have a friend with a pasture sound recovered founder horse who swears by Lakin Lites, says her horse didn't begin to recover and be healthy until she switched. I don't like the molasses as a binder, and also have read that alfalfa should be fed in low percentages. But is it harmful to feed small amounts of alfalfa? Is the main concern the iron overload? How do small amounts of Alfalfa negatively affect a horse? All I have read is that some horses have adverse reactions with not much explanation. My farrier has suggested beet pulp, but the numbers I have found state that beet pulp is higher in ESC/starch than the plain alfalfa pellets. Should I do a hay analysis on a single or a couple different bales, thinking that they are all similar in this region? Thanks for enduring all these questions.


Jaini, thank you for the feedback about diet and exercise! It's slowly getting less overwhelming. Druid has been a huge inspiration through everything, knowing that he recovered and seeing the painstaking year he endured has helped me press on when Felix was at his worse. With the help of my farrier (we both have so many photos, notes, and memories), I'm sure we could come up with a timeline in the future. I'm hoping Felix will be able to return to work, but we shall see! We are only half way there, but the hardest part is behind us. Thank you for the encouragement.


Tena Federico

Fox, Felix, and Fievel

Apache Junction, AZ

August 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tena%20and%20Felix/Felix%20Case%20History/Felix%20Case%20History

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1623&p=Created,,,20,2,0,0




Re: treating laminitis correctly,

Shannon
 

On Wed, Jan 25, 2017 at 02:56 pm, LJ Friedman wrote:
never ice a laminitic horse with endocirne problems

I did not know this, but it makes sense in conjunction with cold weather worsening laminitis.   
--
Shannon and Majik (IR) and Rafiq (PPID/IR, over the rainbow bridge)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

Majik's Photo Album

Rafiq's Photo Album


Re: treating laminitis correctly,

Lorna Cane
 

Find the last post of Dr. Kellon. Look at the bottom of the message,click on More, click on All Posts by this Member.

Then look for the Subject lines on the topic, and you will find various links, plus her own words wrt icing.


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Re: treating laminitis correctly,

LJ Friedman
 

I didnt find the studies.  I only showed her one of dr kellon's quotes.   are there studies on line?
--
LJ Friedman San Diego Npv 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 


Re: compounding pharmacy

LJ Friedman
 

Ive used pet health since nov 2014,  very pleased    I just paid  $3.22 each for 12mg comp perg.--
LJ Friedman San Diego Npv 2014

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse

 


Signature test

bethc@...
 

Hey, just checking to see if signature is working. 
--
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3665

Beth and Nosey

Moorefield, WV
Jan 2017
.


Re: compounding pharmacy

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Erin,

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/ECIR-Links

That's the direct link. It's in the Wiki.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: compounding pharmacy

Erin R. <caprinesociety@...>
 

Casey,

Is Pet Health's pricing similar?  I've been trying to read back posts and it looked liked they were about 15% higher.  I need 9 mg's of perg., and can't afford much over that.


In one of the threads, I heard mention of a list of pharmacies but haven't seen one.  I need to order perg. asap!  I can't believe Thriving Pets did not send out an email to all their pergolide customers.  If they did, I didn't see it but haven't been on the list for a long time.  Has anyone priced Rood & Riddle in Lexington, KY?

Erin and Nick, Ohio, 2008



Pergolide and cyproheptadine?

 

I have spent a some time reviewing the earlier info on the combo of pergolide and cyproheptadine  A friend, not on this list, was given the combo for a newly 
diagnosed PPID horse.  She called me asking if this combo could possibly cause IR or worsen IR.  I could not find if this was true or not.
I have asked that she join and suggested to use just plain pergolide or Prascend.  Many thanks in advance for your time.
Nancy Reed
San Diego County
Jazzi 2013 (IR, now 8 week post op and doing very well.)


Re: compounding pharmacy

macivor macivor <macivor19@...>
 

I have used Pet Health for 2 months and like them.
casey oregon



compounding pharmacy

gschiel1
 

I had been getting my horses’s pergolide from Thriving Pets but they recently moved and are no longer fulling prescriptions.  They recommended Pet Health in Arizona.  I wondered if anyone in the group has experience with this pharmacy or is you have any other suggestions for reputable compounding pharmacies.

 

Thanks in advance,

Gail Schiel


Re: Floss's Xrays

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks, Tori.

Will have those for you soon.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Nutritional powder exposed to moisture

Karin & Inky <ksherbin@...>
 

From Patty: Could you have the TC30 and Nutritional Powder together in one container or Baggie, and the beet pulp and oil soaked and mixed together in a bucket?  And then at feeding time just have him thoroughly mix the dry and wet together?  That's what I do, but I'm not at a busy barn. I have a big mixing spoon in the barn. 

__________________________

 

I can try. Previously when I have left colanders for r/s/r of beet pulp, or big spoons and big containers for mixing, they have not been used. That is why I try to make things as simple as possible.

 

Based on the group’s feedback I went out and got a small fridge for the feed room so I could prepare beet pulp in advance that is r/s/r. Usually I can’t get to the barn except on weekends. Someone had said a few days worth of BP could be stored in the fridge, as well as frozen BP that would thaw by the time the merely cold portions are used up.

 

Currently I have stored 14 meals for the week, the TC 30 and nutritional powder in containers together. I suspect the farmhand is pouring the CocoSoya into the container after the feeding shift is done, i.e., 8 to 12 hours before the next feeding. So after the evening feed, the farmhand prepares the meal for the morning feed. Same routine after the morning feed, prepares for evening feed.

 

I will see if the farmhand is willing to mix the two components right before feeding as you suggest if no one can say that the nutritional supplement will retain its value if mixed with oil or water products for any length of time.

 

 

Karin & Inky

Forest, VA

IR/Cushing's

July 27, 2015

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Inky

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1979

 

 

 

 

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