Date   

Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

 

I believe the purpose of steaming is to dampen the hay placed into the steamer so that dusts and fine mold particle/spors are not inhaled by the horse eating the hay. Rinsing achieves removing suface dust/particles and evidently surface iron and dampens the hay. Lot cheaper for me to do then $1000 for a steamer. If I lived in a colder climate I might think differently. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/horse/nutrition/the-effect-of-hay-steaming-on-forage-nutritive-values/index.html
--
- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

Charles County, Maryland

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

Sharon Manning
 

Do you think the same happens in steamed hay? I am steaming hay but did not change my copper or zinc, so I may be giving too much.
Thanks sharon
2005
E TN

Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors


Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

 

I have to borrow a hay probe to core hay for testing. Lavinia told me she always saves some cored hay when she is testing her hays in case she wants to have an additional test done at a later time. Good Idea! I sent my hay test off  and didn't say a sample. So for the 2nd test of "rinsed" hay I decided to  send a sample of hay rinsed exactly as I actually rinse my hays. I took a hay sample from multiple bales, not cored, packed it into one of my "Mini" hay nets and rinsed. I use cold water from our well. I have a nice deep tub that allows he to imerse hay nets fully. (The tub is scrubbed 1-2xday) I use a manual clothes plunger/wand on each hay net and REALLY vigorusly work each net of hay up and down. www.easygoproducts.com/easygo-washing-wand.html. Here is a link to the manual washer I use. They work really well to wash and rinse anything including hay! It also works for washing horse bandages and saddle pads. I used an old metal version of this kind of plunger back when I groomed race horses at the tracks. Much easier and more efficient for hay rinsing than other method I tried early on and it aloows you to keep you hands out of the water.

I dried the hay over a few days then reduced it in size for shipping to the lab. We'll see what the new iron test shows. 

I have found that rinsing my horse's hay for dust and mold spores works fine. He is heavey and reacts to inhaling dust and spores. Just rinsing has been working REALLY WELL. If I have a hay that isn't tested low ECS/starch I soak it for an hour in cold water then give it a quick plunging before draining.


 


--
- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

Charles County, Maryland

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Case History Update Doofus

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

Could some kind soul please give me dummy step by step instructions on how to upload all my blood results to my Case History?

Hi Tori,

Your blood work results should be added to the Blood Work Table in Floss' case history document. Only CBCs should be uploaded into her case history folder.  

Add all the information into her case history document then, save it to your computer.  Next go to your case history folder, and delete the old version so that the new version can be uploaded.  You must delete the old version first because computers will not allow two documents with the same name in the same folder and because only one version of a case history is allowed in the files.  

Step by step instructions: How to Make a Case History* 

Is this the help you were looking for?
--

LeeAnne,

Newmarket, Ontario. ECIR Archivist March, 2004

Email Me (If link doesn't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage DatabaseView the Database Stats

 

Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials


Re: Halflinger in Crisis

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Joy,

Welcome to the group!  So sorry to hear that your girl is suffering.  You have definitely come to the right place for help!  We've seen thousands of laminitic horses through to a full recovery.  To get the very best help from us we need some more details about your Halflinger.  To get those details we ask that all members fill out a case history on their horse.  In order to do that, you need to join the case history subgroup here:


https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory 

and then all of the information you'll need to fill out the CH is in the wiki here:  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/wiki 

If you have any trouble, just ask and help is available.  It can be a bit daunting at the start, but the better we understand your horse’s situation, the better advice we can provide.

Meanwhile, I will give you some details about our philosophy called DDT/E, short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. And I will try to answer your questions as best I can and I also have some questions for further clarification.  Once you get your CH filled out, we'll be able to be much more specific with answers to any questions you have.

 

DIAGNOSIS:  So you have a diagnosis of IR (insulin resistance).  Please share with us the results of any lab work that you have already done.  There is a place in the case history (CH) form for you to list all of your lab work with the dates it was done and the reference ranges.  Once we see those numbers, we can help you better.

The 4 tests that we recommend to diagnose PPID and/or IR are ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin.  The ACTH is for diagnosing PPID, the insulin, glucose are to diagnose IR  and the leptin helps to determine if the horse is IR at baseline or if an elevated ACTH is driving the insulin up.  Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating"  and many IR horses are also leptin resistant, which causes them to be forever hungry.  Read more about Leptin resistance here:


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/4%20Insulin%20Resistance  It's the 4th file up from the bottom in that folder.


PPID is treated with the medication pergolide and a mineral balanced diet.  IR is managed with a low sugar/starch (under 10%) mineral balanced diet and exercise. If a horse has both PPID and IR, he will need both medication and a mineral balanced low sugar starch diet and exercise. 

Metformin can be useful to help lower insulin levels but it doesn't work in every horse. When it does work, the effects do not last long term so we advise only using it in emergency situations to help get things under control while you are getting the diet organized.


DIET:  Diet is supremely important, in some ways more for what is not fed: no pasture, sweet feeds, oats/grain, carrots, apples, iron-containing supplements.  Diet consists of grass hay or haylage, with ESC (soluble sugars) and starch of less than 10%, plus minerals balanced to the forage, plus vitamin E, salt, and flaxseed or flaxseed oil.  One can use a carrier of beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, and rinsed) as a safe feed to get the supplements in. Other safe alternatives include any one of the following:  Nuzu Stabul 1 (available from Tractor Supply), soy hull pellets, Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, Triple Crown TC Lite (very small amounts), TC 30, LMF Low NSC Stage 1, LMF Low NSC Complete,http://lmffeeds.com/products/low-nsc-complete/


The Temporary Emergency Diet uses hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it; plus vitamin E, salt, and ground flaxseed in a safe carrier such as beet pulp (rinsed, soaked, rinsed). Given that she is currently footsore, starting the Temporary Emergency Diet seems prudent.

You may or may not need to soak your hay, depending on the ESC and starch values.  Soaking your hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water can remove about 30% of the sugar content but no starch.  Hay soaking can be a challenge in the winter, for sure!  And not too much fun either!  Lots of folks use a cooler to soak their hay--keeps it from freezing, and then wheel it to a safe place to drain the water.  Make sure you dump the water where it won't make a skating rink in the winter and in the summer where the horses can't get to it.

The ultimate goal is to find hay that is under 10% sugar + starch as the basis of your diet. 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here    


There is lots of other helpful information in the start here file so recommend that you read the entire file.

You can use either ground flax or chia to provide the omega 3's. Flax has the better omega 3 to 6 profile at 4:1 (which is similar to fresh grass), while chia's is about 3:1. Ground flax is also more economical.

Trim: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis.  Look on the following pages of our website for more information about a proper trim.

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim  

http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim

After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, the trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic horse comfortable.  Sometimes horses with subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as having arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the horse attempts to compensate for sore feet.

Boots and pads are an important part of getting the horse comfortable while they grow out new hooves.  Some good choices are Soft Rides and Easy Boot clouds.  There are others, but members here have had good luck with these.

https://www.softrideboots.com/

https://www.easycareinc.com/our_boots/easyboot_cloud/easyboot_cloud.aspx 

The Easycare Rx's are another good option.


Bute and other NSAIDS are not recommended after the first few days of laminitis as they interfere with healing. They also do not actually help with the pain from laminitis because they do not address the cause. For more info on this, please read Dr. Kellon's presentation from the 2013 NO! Laminitis Conference:

https://www.ecirhorse.com/proceedings-2013.php

The proceedings are free to download.


The trick to weaning them off and avoiding rebound pain is to increase the time between doses first.  Here's a good but looooong post about weaning NSAIDS.  Down towards the very bottom is an example schedule for weaning.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/163097


You are encouraged to post hoof pictures and any radiographs you have in the PHOTOS section of the case history group so we can help you determine if you have an optimal trim in place.   Go to this section of the wiki to read about how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed and how to get the best hoof shots:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help 


Exercise: The best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  A horse that has had lamintis needs 6-9 months after a correct realigning trim is in place before any serious exercise should begin.  No exercise should begin while the horse is on NSAIDS as they can mask the pain and allow the horse to do more than he should, damaging the fragile new laminae.  Allowing him to move around at liberty in a safe environment where there is no grass and he won't get chased by other horses is a safe place to start.  When he is more comfortable, hand walking in long straight lines with no tight turns can begin.  Never force a foot sore horse to move.


OK Joy, that gives you the basics of our DDT/E philosophy, and I think I've either answered your questions along the way, or asked for more information. There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website.  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php   Read here in the wiki for the best way to search the files and messages:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/How-to-Search-the-Archives 

We ask everyone to sign each time they post with their name (first if fine)  date of joining, and general location.  See my signature below for example.  Once you get your CH done, please add a link to that in your signature as well.  It really helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster.  You can set up your signature to attach automatically through the "subscription" tab on the groups.io site.


Hang in there Joy!  Don't hesitate to ask any further questions you have!


--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Case History Update Doofus

Pauline <takarri@...>
 

 Hi Tori,

Does this help?

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/How-to-Download

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki

Pauline

Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

 Harry, Jack and Spur's Case Histories   


Case History Update Doofus

Tori & Floss
 

Could some kind soul please give me dummy step by step instructions on how to upload all my blood results to my Case History?

I am having lots of challenges atm and spend ages entering data to have it all disappear :-( I do not know what I am doing wrong.

Thank you!!
--
Tori

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Floss 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347





Halflinger in Crisis

Joy Latzko
 

Once I joined, I wasn't sure where to message with a horse in crisis. I have a 21-year old halflinger mare that was diagnosed IR 3 years ago and is on Metformin. She is also navicular. She had a severe founder 1-1/2 years ago that we have been recovering from. In the last 2 months, she has been getting progressively worse. Today, she could barely move (with her Rx boots with pads) on. Also keep in mind the temperature hit 67 and she has a lot of hair. She was recently tested for Cushings. It was negative. I soak her hay. She gets no grain, only a supplement by BioStar and Chia seeds (I was told they were better than Flax seed). I have her on 1/2 gram of Bute twice a day. I'm ready to put her down unless someone has a suggestion. She's miserable.


Joy Latzko


Re: Top Foda Hay - "low sugar"

Maggie
 

Hi Dianne,

Sorry, I didn't say that quite right.  Our spring is your fall and seasonal rise.  Egads!  Sorry for the confusion!

Rest assured it's not just the vets in Australia that remain confused about PPID and IR.  Vets can get CEU's now for attending our No Laminitis Conference, so hopefully we are making some progress there.  Maybe your vet would be interested in the proceedings from the 2 previous No Laminitis conferences, available on our website free of charge.



Or attending the 2017 No Laminitis Conference:  https://ecirhorse.org/conference-press-releases.php 

Hang in there!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response


Re: Top Foda Hay - "low sugar"

Di Pascoe <dianne@...>
 

Hi Maggie,


Thanks for your post and info - I may have covered some of this in my reply to Lorna (kinda got on a roll there). Thank you for the link on seasonal rise - I'm pretty convinced this is what is going on now. Makes me angry. If the vets here knew more about this, Phoenix probably wouldnt be in the state he is now in.


You say Spring you me and Fall for you...why not Fall for us too here in the Southern Hemisphere?
--
Dianne Pascoe

December 2016, Woodend, Vic, Australia

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dianne%20and%20Phoenix

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2352&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Top Foda Hay - "low sugar"

Di Pascoe <dianne@...>
 

I think she is basing this on her own findings over the years. She also believes Cushings is triggered by chronic pain.

Incidently, this is not the same vet I was using in the beginning. I have only been using this one since about 5 weeks ago. She is a barefoot trimmer, vet/Chiro in my area that is very highly regarded and has apprently saved countless horses where others could not. I have known her/of her, for years and do believe she is all she says she is. I'm just getting very frustrated by all the differing opinions on EVERYTHING to do with diet, trim, excercise, pain relief, even down to the types of pads to put in the boots! 

One vet says, feed loads of zero pellets and loads of lucerne (he is very underweight) - another says feed him Copra meal and speedy beet and oaten chaff and lucerne chaff... Oaten chaff!!?? I told her I was not going to do that even though she says she never has seen any issues with tihs before.

I dont know if my horses is abscessing in both front feet currently or having an other laminitic attack. He does have bright red lamina in all 4 hooves so I guess there is my answer.

I've now upped his Prescend back up to 1 and half tabs. He was only prescribed 1 tab but that was based on his previous dose of 6ml compounded liquid pergolide.

I have also been told recently by a few people (2nd vet included) that horses should never have their ACTH tested in Autumn or when they are in pain from lamintiis...he was first tested in Autumn and during an acute attached of Laminiits : April 2016. And then re-tested a couple of months later (once on 5ml Pergolide) which showed normal readings.  So his first test was probably so high due to Autumn and pain?

I will have him tested for IR but not when he is in pain. I'm assuming he is IR so am feeding an IR diet (to the best of my knowledge). His body score would be rated thin currently.

Sorry I got a bit ranty Lorna :|
--
Dianne Pascoe

December 2016, Woodend, Vic, Australia

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dianne%20and%20Phoenix

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2352&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


trailer laminitic horse

jakehorse10
 

Hi, it has been 6 weeks since mild laminitic episode (IR/undiagnosed PPID/cold) and I now have to move my horse. I am very nervous about how to do this as safely as possible. He will have his Cloud boots, shipping boots, a regular trailer mat. Should I get an extra thick foam or gel mat, thick bedding?? Any help or tips would be appreciated on what I should or should not do to hopefully avoid a relapse.

btw - he's been on Prascend and looks much better, vet and farrier are impressed at how good he looks and how well he moves.  
--
Monti/Jake in Mich 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Monti%20and%20Jake


Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cass,

I have one result for a hay of mine which I had tested for iron and sodium before and after just rinsing. I know that a lot of the iron is from dirt on the surface.

I  cored samples of the hay and sent one sample just the way it was: iron 246 ppm, sodium .214%

From the same bucket of cored hay I rinsed a sample - just dumped a quart of it into a bucket of clean, cold water, swished it around then pulled back out using a strainer. Air dried well, then sent in: iron 177 ppm, sodium .146%.

I have tested well water, treated to keep pH neutral.

Didn't test anything else.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

 

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 04:53 am, Bonnie Snodgrass wrote:

I RINSE only, all hay fed to Mouse as he has respiratory problems and I want to lower the iron level. I am consistant on how I rinse the hay.

Bonnie, I would really like to read your results from rinsing only. Somewhere I got the impression that to reduce dust and molds for respiratory problems, a 30 minute soak is recommended. Please don't take it from me. Others here know much more about that than I.

I never saw a reduction in iron using my water, but then I always soaked for a short period of time.  I look forward to reading your results with how long you rinsed and how much water you used per volume of hay.

--
Cass for Satra and Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cass%20and%20Satra%20-%20Cayuse


Re: cloud boots and comfort

Lorna Cane
 

Yay, YAY, and YAY !!!



Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Re: Copper Blood work and pergolide adjustments - Dr. Kellon

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I think you can just make the switch -give the shot the day after his last dose. 3 days is reasonable.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


cloud boots and comfort

LJ Friedman
 

2 months post start of laminitic event and I think Jesse is more comfortable now then since I remember.

Case in point

  Until just very recently. to clean his rear hooves was such a challenge bec he might lift his hinds just a few inches off the ground and I never forced him to do more. I had to get real low on the ground to clean them. 

Lately, he;s been lifting the hinds completely up.. without any work on my effort.

things look good. thanks for all the help.



 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117 

.https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse


Re: Copper Blood work and pergolide adjustments - Dr. Kellon

Jodie Jensen
 

Dr. Kellon,

I dug through messages on cabergoline and read the links provided. I've shared all with my vet and we both think we should try this since what we are doing is not working. Do we stop the pergolide cold turkey and give the shot or wean him off? What's the timing of the shot if we wean him off? And how fast do we wean? I'm thinking about doing blood work before and again 3 days after the shot.Thoughts?

Has anyone else from the group tried this? Did Tina and Rio try?

Thank you so much!
--
Jodie, Copper, Emmy and Gang

WA 2007

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodie%20and%20Copper%20-%20Emmy/Copper



Re: Metformin - disregard

 

I was looking for posts from Dr. Kellon that talks about when glucose/insulin is not controlled with pergolide and diet, Metformin is a good idea.  Dance (shot in hoof) cannot exercise much and diet is tight but he is still struggling with IR symptoms.  I want to talk to the vet about this, but also want to be educated before I initiate any conversation.  
--
Debora, Montana 

Joined 2/7/12

CIR 0113/0615, NRC+1112,  NAT, MPG 0911


Re: Jesse. need labs direction

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 08:17 pm, LJ Friedman wrote:
mtn sunrise tim pellets balanced from uckele from Kathleen,, plus 2000 iu E in soy oil,  3 oz iodized salt, j herb( ., tc omega flax, 2 scops al- car in 2.5# rsr molasses free  bp. 

Sorry I had the 16.5 pounds of Timothy Mountain stuff under concentrates in Jesse's case history - I didn't know it was a hay "replacer". 

LJ, more date questions:  

1. When did you start the Al-car?  All I have for that is that he is on 10g per day.  Need the start date so we know how long he's been on it. Also need to know when you started the Omeprazole and when you stopped it (it says he is still on it?)

2. Is Jesse still on 1 gram of Aspirin powder?  If not when did it stop/change?

3. Same for Pentoxyfiline. Jesse's  case history says he is still on 3200 mg 2x a day.  Need to know date stopped/changed and or amount.

My apologies if I have you these questions already but i think that we are working off two different versions of Jesse's case history.  You need to use only this one.  

--

LeeAnne,

Newmarket, Ontario. ECIR Archivist March, 2004

Email Me (If link doesn't work use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com)

 

Are you in the Pergolide Dosage DatabaseView the Database Stats

 

Dawn's 10 Year Case History
Taken For Granite Art - Lightweight Cement Sculpture and Memorials

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