Re: Spirulina in Tablet Form


Hi Sally,

I have used both forms of Spirulina and prefer the powder. The tablets are large and I would have to break them up to about 4 pieces per tablet. This was very time consuming. I start the powder slowly with the chondroitin sulfate early spring. I mix it in with other vitamins and minerals to some soaked OBTC. My horse has always cleaned it up.
Lynn and Harley

Oct. 2010 

New Mexico

Re: Frequent abscessing and new coughing issue...

Lin Reuther

Hi Kristen,

Can I use Spirulina with prascend?  Also, any advice on where to purchase it? 

Thanks for the help!

Lin and Charlie, Vermont

April, 2016

Spirulina in Tablet Form


Hello...  Thinking ahead to bug season around the corner and want to get my hyper reactive mare started on Chondroitin Sulfate and Spirulina.   Wondering if any of you have used the Spirulina in Tablet form successfully with your horses?  

I don't mind the green everywhere powder effects, but might choose to supplement the tablets instead when out of town and a neighbor is feeding for me.  Thank you...
Sally 04/2013

Big Park, Arizona  

Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - October 27-29, Tucson AZ


Perfectly right Aimee!  What a generous offer!  I will have to let Nancy (or someone else who knows) answer your question about the CEU's, but here is the info from the 2015 conference if that helps at all:

And yes, your join date was 5/2014--good guess?

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - October 27-29, Tucson AZ


Long time lurker, first time poster; hope I have this right.
I have offered to pay my vet's expenses to go to this conference. Any idea when we might know about the credits/CEUs? He needs to know as he is looking ahead at scheduling, attending other continuing ed. seminars.
Thank you.
NJ 2014 (?)

Re: ACTH and Insulin Testing Help/Questions


Hi Stephanie,

I see that LeeAnne uploaded your CH before, which is probably why you can't delete it.  I will shoot her an email.  Thanks for the updated one. 

What a mess with getting King's labs drawn!  54" of snow--ugh!  

A few ideas/thoughts....

I wish I could comment on the confusion with the blood, but that's a real mess.  I can't imagine that Cornell would have actually run the ACTH on whole blood.  Again, the ACTH results would have been artificially low if the blood was not handled properly.  I agree that at this point you are just going to have to bite the bullet and pay to rerun the blood work. Maybe the old vet would consider reimbursing you if she didn't process the blood correctly.

How old is your pergolide?  Do you order only 30 days at a time and store it in the fridge, as recommended to ensure maximum potency?  Have you asked Pet Health to provide a potency test and an expiration date on the pergolide?  I see that the ACTH dated 2/15/2017 was done in the PM.  How long after the last dose of pergolide was that?  How does it compare to the one done in August (no time noted on that one)?

We do normally recommend that the pergolide be given in one dose, but have found over the years that some horses, can benefit from adding a second smaller dose later in the day (assuming you are giving the 20mg dose in the morning).  

As far as waiting to increase his dose, I would ask the vet that is coming today to sell you some of Prascend that you could use to increase his dose after she does the blood draw today.  Maybe you could buy just part of a box from her.  You already know King's ACTH is high, just not really how high.  That will give you some time to either order some smaller compounded capsules to use for increasing his dose, or settle on a new dose to order.  You could also use it to add a second smaller dose later in the day if you want to try that.  Sometimes you just have to do some experimenting to see what works best.  They are all so different and work hard to keep us on our toes!  I might give the vet a call early and make sure she has has some Prascend in her truck.

Are you keeping a journal on King?  It can be really helpful in determining if he needs an increase in pergolide in the absence of an ACTH test.  Read this post by Patti for some really great tips:   Weight loss and declining energy are classic signs of elevated ACTH.  Read more here:  Lots of folks use symptoms to make pergolide increases.  Of course, it doesn't replace testing, but can sure help.  If you get into the same conundrum again, of not being able to get the testing done in a timely manner, you can use the journal to track his symptoms and make pergolide increases until you can get him tested.

I see in your CH that you are using Haystack Low sugar/starch grain.  Is this the one?   That actually looks like a decent carrier for your supplements, low sugar and starch, and at one cup/day, should be just fine.  It does contain some alfalfa which some horses are sensitive to and rice bran which has an upside down Omega 3:6 ratio, but if feeding ground flax seed it should be OK.  I don't see that you are feeding King any flax seed.  Would definitely want to add 2-4 oz of that to his diet to replace the Omega 3's and 6's lost when grass is cured into hay.  I see your hay analysis, but I don't see any mineral supplementation in your CH. It's really important to get your minerals balanced to your hay.  Maybe you just forgot to add that?  If not would consider at least adding one of the the following until you can get your hay balanced.
California Trace: 
Best to get your minerals balanced to your hay, but one of these can hold you until you do that.  Would also make sure his trim is really tight.  With his ACTH and insulin so high he is at high risk for laminitis.  A really tight trim can't prevent that but can be really helpful if it does occur.

Hang in there Stephanie!  

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA 
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Re: minerals


Don't bother with Rush Creek minerals. Free choice minerals are always a bad idea: horses tend to be driven by a craving for salt, and may consume way too much, or not nearly enough, of a free choice mineral. Also, you have no idea how much your horse is ingesting.  Until you get your hay analyzed, and can get minerals balanced to your hay, use Uckele U-balance Foundation; or California Trace or California Trace Plus. Can't really advise any further without knowing where you live, or having a case history. What is your Carb Free Grain?  Lots of bagged feeds are totally unsuitable.   Here is a list of safe feeds:  rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp, soy hull pellets, Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes, Nuzu Stabul 1, Triple Crown TC Lite (very small amounts), TC 30, LMF Low NSC Stage 1, LMF Low NSC Complete,  These feeds are only used to get the minerals, vitamins and salt into the horse, not as balancers or actual supplements.

Regarding CoQ10:   Is the CoQ10 useful? I don't know, because there aren't enough data for horses. Proven anti-oxidants include MovEase from My Best Horse, and PhytoQuench from Uckele. Right now, keep it simple. Use the Temporary Emergency Diet just as it is presented; get a hay analysis; and most important, make sure you follow the Diagnosis, Diet, TRIM protocol. 

Hope this helps!


Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

Re: minerals

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Sue,

Glad to hear that Finn is holding his own at the moment. Good that you have been able to implement the emergency diet and have been able to stop the bute. Know how scary that can be but it really is much better for him.

It would be very helpful to see pictures of Finn's feet before your upcoming appointment if at all possible. They can be uploaded to the Photos section on the Case History sub-group. Do you have the previous set of xrays available? It would be good to see those too.

What is the Carb Free grain - which company makes it?

Why are you feeding chastetree berry? This might be an option for a PPID (Cushings) horse but is not for IR.

Good that you are adding the vit E. Also need to add ground flax and iodized salt.

As for the Rush Creek free choice minerals: NO, these are in no way suitable for an IR horse. Besides the added iron, which NO horse needs, they have added vitamin C, thiamine, niacin, soy bean oil, rice bran, oat groats, barley, licorice, yucca. Free choice minerals in general are not a good idea as horses do not "know what they need" -  they eat these mixes sporadically because of what is used as flavorings so there is no way to know exactly how much they are consuming. The best way is to analyze your hay, then supply minerals based on the deficiencies and surpluses in the hay so you KNOW the animal is consuming the proper amounts.

Licking the iron bar in his stall is something to pass the time - it has nothing to do with mineral needs.

MSM can interfere with copper and selenium uptake so unless there is a specific need to use it, not recommended.

For now, it would be best if you stick with the emergency diet until you can get your minerals balanced to the hay analysis. Throwing the proverbial kitchen sink supplement-wise at Finn is not going to be helpful and is a waste of your money.

We ask that you take an extra moment when you post to add your general location and year of joining to your signature (thanks for signing your name). It helps us provide better answers for you.

Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Re: prascend or pergolide for a mare?? AND chaste tree berry and prascend


Hi, Sandie - Prascend is pergolide. Prascend is the brand name for the drug pergolide mesylate. A recommendation not to use Prascend, but to instead use pergolide, makes no sense as they are the same thing. Your nutritionist is confused, or you mis-understood her.

There really isn't enough information on the interactions between pergolide/Prascend and chaste tree berry. CTB has a slightly different mechanism of action. It will not bring down the ACTH at all, but will sometimes help with clinical signs such as getting the horse to shed. Don't rely on it to help with laminitis or immune system issues. By all means add CTB as an adjunct to assist in shedding, but still keep the ACTH in low to middle range with pergolide/Prascend.


Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

prascend or pergolide for a mare?? AND chaste tree berry and prascend

sandie harries


1) I was recently advised by a nutritionist who found some information (that I can't access atm) on Bova Vet website.

She advised me that prascend is not recommended for mares but more pergolide.

It hasnt been evaluated enough and can affect reproductive hormones and make mares moody and unstable.

Is that correct?

If so, can I get pergolide in non liquid form?

2) Can i mix chaste tree berry with prascend? I was thinking of giving both during seasonal rise to assist. Is that ok?

Sandie G harries

Victoria, Australia

member since july 2015


Sue Haven Tester

Hello, I am 2 1/2  weeks in to doing the emergency diet and merging into a consistent  diet, I think we are in decent shape keeping things right around 10 % after hay testing, now soaking it,  adding Carb Free grain, & the Timothy cubes and beet pulp. And the basic minerals listed along with chaste berry,  & vitamin E . My 10 yr old Morgan, Finn, as I mentioned 2 weeks ago, when I first joined, is due for his 2nd set of x rays & trim this Wed. He is diagnosed with EMS, he has lost some weight, he is off bute, he is very sore.  But I think holding pretty steady... He goes out every day for awhile.  I was wondering about anyone's opinion on the The Rush Creek free choice minerals to use?? I see they have iron, and I believe I read iron is not to be used in IR horses.  He licks the iron bar in his stall a lot, does that mean anything? I have read that his EMS could have been brought on by possible deficiencies in his mineral intake...wondered about the free choice, seems appealing. Also, what about CoQ10 I read that is very good for Metabolic horses as an antioxidant and for cell repair. Thoughts on that? I will be adding MSM, as well. It is a little scary to be off bute but at the same time, too scary to stay on it. My vet is not happy that I have taken him off it...

Thanks for all your help. I have been reading all the materials, and have had help from a local member. I have not as yet downloaded ALL my info...


Re: trailer laminitic horse

Mary M.

HI Monti, 

Another option is wood shavings. I like the bigger ones rather than the ones that are more fine. They are easier to sweep out, do not get into small crevices so much, and do not blow around. Having them under back end is most useful as others noted to absorb manure and moisture. I use them all the time when i trailer for cushion and absolution. 

Mary and Katie

Chelsea, MI 2012

Re: Top Foda Hay - "low sugar"

Maxine McArthur

Hi Dianne

It's a huge learning curve to be sure! We are so lucky to have this group to turn to for solid advice. I was shocked when I found out that the autumn rise can cause sore feet/laminitis even when the horse is on an IR diet. This is not information I could have found out from my vet, or anywhere else for that matter. 

I will leave it to the mods to address the herbal question. 

In the case of my mare, it is our first autumn rise since being diagnosed. Because her symptoms were fairly subtle and it's all new to me, I do rely on testing to confirm I've got the dose right (hopefully as time goes on, I'll be able to tell from symptoms better). I tested ACTH late November 2016 (normal), then on 29 December I increased by 0.25mg (1/4 Prascend) due to symptoms. I tested ACTH, insulin and glucose on 9 February (a bit elevated), then increased again by 0.25mg for 6 days, then last night I raised it again by 0.25mg. This has us at 2.5mg, and I intend to hold here for 3-4 weeks and test ACTH again in late March/early April to make sure she has not shot up. However, if she shows worsening of symptoms, I may raise the dose again. As this is our first rise, I have no idea what to expect. But last year in July her ACTH was 117, so it is possible she has a long, late rise. 

In my case, I have not found the correct dose of pergolide dulls my horse at all--on the contrary, her main symptom when her ACTH is too *high* is dullness. When her ACTH tested as normal (around 20 pg/mL), she was bright and happy. 

With regard to increasing the pergolide, the advice here on the list is to taper up gradually. This is what I have done. There's lots of advice in the archives and in the files.The fastest I have increased was from 1.25mg to 1.5mg in two days last year.  But each horse will react differently to increases. Mine has never lost her appetite, although when I first started her on pergolide she was a bit 'spacey'. This morning, after I increased by 0.25mg last night, she ate all her breakfast and was the most forward under saddle she has been for a couple of weeks. 

I've found that searching the archives for posts on "seasonal rise", "increase dosage", and "tapering" brings up lots of useful results. 

We should treasure these "problem horses", I reckon--they teach us so much! (Including how to be frugal in the rest of our lives in order to pay for medication, tests etc....)

Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

Re: Does Rinsing hay lower any nutrients besides IRON?

Sharon Manning

Thanks dawn
I am steaming for a horse with heaves. It's helped a great deal but not 100%. Also on Dr k protocol. I just saw the iron question and it made me wonder if I should test my steamed hay and adjust minerals.

Sent from my iPhone
Please forgive any errors

Re: Frequent abscessing and new coughing issue...

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Don't worry about the older pix - they are available in your old album on the Yahoo site. If you have a lot of trouble getting the new pix to load here, send me a private note with them attached and I can get them up for you.
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Re: Now: Case History Review for Becky and April

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Becky,

Glad to hear April seems to be a bit better. Sometimes it's just baby steps - but they ARE positive steps.

That he trimmed the frogs even while acknowledging that they were already too "short" is frustrating. It is a common problem, as is scooping out more sole, all the while complaining that the sole is too thin.  Huh???

Definitely back the toes a bit, a little every few days is a great way to do it.

Yes, send me the pix of the others' feet. If they aren't IR/PPID then I need to do the uploading to the ECHoof sub-group.
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Re: Frequent abscessing and new coughing issue...

kellyj k

I have uploaded some pix of Buddy's feet and will add more as soon as my slow connection will allow.  I can also try to load some older pix for comparison.  I would say the abscessing has improved the past 18 months, but not as much as I had hoped it would.  He seems to get them more frequently during times when he is not consistently ridden.  The wet then frozen then wet winter has not helped.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:29 PM, kellyj k <kelly.jstgetnby12@...> wrote:
Thank you for your replies.  I will get some pix today and attempt to add them to a new album.  He was just trimmed yesterday and my farrier brought a second (barefoot) trimmer with him for a second opinion.  She suggested continuing with the weekly rasping tweaks and something about slippering his heels a little more to my farrier.  Our EasyBoot Trails size 1 no longer seem to fit his foot and they thought maybe some epics would work better for when he gets ouchy.  I normally do not ride with boots because we have a soft grass arena, but I have used them during abscess episodes and whenever he seems tender.  

I try to avoid any NSAIDS when he is abscessing and only have resorted to them when he is in great distress.  The last abscess (left front) had him laying down for 2 days and I gave him 1g bute per day for 2 days just to get him moving around a little, then I stopped it.  I do animalintex poultices along with ichthammol wraps, sometimes an epsom salt soak.  Every time the vet or farrier has gone hunting for an active abscess, they have never found it - so I have concluded it may be best not to "look".  He virtually never reacts to hoof testers even when quite lame, which makes things more difficult as well.

The hay is thankfully NOT stored overhead.  To be honest, I am not sure I can deal with yet another health issue with this horse.  He has a wonderful temperament and I have put almost 5 years of work into him, but I am getting pretty stressed about the situation.  My budget is tight, which does not help.

I'll get the new pix this afternoon.  Thanks for your help!

Kelly and Buddy
2014 Illinois

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 10:19 AM, Lavinia Fiscaletti <shilohmom@...> wrote:

Hi Kelly,

Regarding the abscessing, it would be really helpful to see current pictures of his feet. No, he shouldn't keep abscessing forever - that it has been occurring this frequently and regularly is a sign that something isn't quite right.

Could you please make a photo album for him here on the new Case History sub-group Photos section:

If you haven't joined since we switched over, you'll need to do that first.

All the instructions you need can be found in the Wiki here on the main group:

J-herb will help with mobilizing abscesses because it helps increase circulation. Are you using any NSAIDs when he abscesse? If so, that will slow down the process. Soaking and poulticing tend to help, as will light movement, so no need to confine him when these nasty things are brewing.

If the hay is being stored overhead it is a huge negative for respiratory issues as it creates constant dust hanging in the air. Know that you may not be able to do anything about that, just pointing out the connection. Need others with more experience with lung isuues to jump in here with suggestions.
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Re: Top Foda Hay - "low sugar"

Di Pascoe <dianne@...>

Thanks Maxine. Good to hear! I am now pretty convinced this is seasonal rise (now that I understand how this works and its not just about grass in Autumn). I was also about to ween him off Pergolide using a herbal method recommended by McDowells Herbs Its a 12 week program. A saddle fitter I know in WA was able to ween her horse of it with great success. I just hate how it dulls him down. But then he has not really been 100% pain free since this started back in April 2016. I was in denial for some time initially and have only completely taken him off the grass in December 2016. Not that I have much but I now realise this can be worse than being on a lush paddock. I wish I knew then, what I know now :|

How much are you increasing your dose of Pergolide by? I'm thinking of going up another half tab today...just not sure if that is too much too soon.

Thanks again Maxine, I greatly appreciate your input and concern :)
Dianne Pascoe

December 2016, Woodend, Vic, Australia

Case History:

Photo Album:,,,20,1,0,0

Re: ACTH and Insulin Testing Help/Questions

Stephanie Stout

Hi Lorna and Maggie,

I just uploaded a new version of King's CH. It wouldn't let me delete the old one, but the new one says 'updated' in the file name. I hope that helps. If you can delete the old CH, please do! 

Unfortunately, the vet that did the blood has now moved out of state so I'm not going to be able to get her to rerun the blood work. I do have an appointment with a different vet tomorrow to hopefully rerun the blood work. I know I will have to pay for it again, but I don't think there is much I can do about it at this point. 

There is confusion with Cornell. I called Cornell to ask if they had received the blood samples(vet was in the middle of moving, so I knew I couldn't get a hold of her) and Cornell said blood samples were not testable due to receiving whole blood and not plasma. So, I started figuring out who could redo the blood work, etc and then yesterday the original vet forwarded me the results...So I am not sure who to believe, or if the blood was accurate or inaccurate. 

I don't have any Pergolide capsules besides the 20mg. Should I wait until I get the next blood work(hopefully this week if the vet shows up tomorrow) to increase his dosage? Or should I break apart a 20mg capsule, divide it up the best I can to give him more? How much higher should I increase if I do that?

He was in good weight and doing well back in the end of August/September when I increased him from 16mg to 20mg. He started declining(weight and energy) around Thanksgiving, and I kept asking to run ACTH and Insulin. It took the vet forever(January) to get out here to run the blood. I guess something about 54 inches of snow and being snowed in for 3 months didn't help either!

Stephanie & King
October 2014
Case History 

Re: Now: Case History Review for Becky and April

Becky Ferry


Thank you all for your replies. 

Paige's info is good & I am trying to be positive for her as she picks up when I am not. 

April seems to be managing very well, she is moving a little unevenly but is moving & really picking her hind feet up & stepping under. Yes the frogs were a little overtrimmed - I think he wanted them to look tidy, as farriers do. However, I just let him explain everything he was doing & show me, & to his credit he said that the frogs were not in contact with the ground, so they were not doing their job. Not sure why he trimmed so much though. 

She is very bright in herself & lying down alot less now. I have put her back out with the others; we have had little rain recently so it is not slippy & I think is providing her support when the ground moulds into her feet each step. She doesn't care for racing around with them & mentally it has to be helping her recovery. Apparently she doesn't need her boots on to go out either - the dominant mare knows her own mind!!!

Given the response to her trim, would it be ok to start backing her toes a little, perhaps every couple of days, or should i just do it all in one go? 

I have photos of the others' feet, do you want them all emailed to you Lavinia? There are a few....

Many thanks again. 


2010 UK NRC 

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