Date   

Re: jesse' update

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi LJ,

Took a quick look. Some improvements - which is great. Toes still need to come back, esp the LF. Appears as if there is too much "cosmetic" work being done instead of actually backing the toes in a functional way. More for you tomorrow.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: gas lines growing out

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sharon,

Great to hear Elsa is doing well.

By all means open it up - once open, that's it. Would be good to see current pix of all the feet.
--
Lavinia, Dante and George Too

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


gas lines growing out

 

Hi Everyone - I'm happy to report that riding Elsa is going great.  Question - the right front gas lines are growing out. I'm filling the openings with antibiotic cream mixed with fungal cream and then packing with piece of diaper or panty liner which stay in nicely.  My farrier thought she might want to open them up next time.  Is that a good idea?

I'm doing another set of x-rays April 18th and will post more photos.  Do you want a photo of the bottom of the right front now can you give some advice just knowing the situation.  We certainly could see the gas lines on the x-rays before - so we knew they were coming....

thanks--
--
Sharon P, Elsa  April 2016

Courtenay, BC Canada

Elsa, Case History, Photo Album

 





Re: jesse' update

LJ Friedman
 

LeAnne posted trim pix done on 3/28.   can I get any input on the trim?  corrections  etc?   thanks
--

LJ Friedman  Nov 2014  San Diego, CA

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117 

.https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse


Re: Blood draw protocols

 

I just checked Cornell's site, and it said lavender-topped tubes was fine for insulin, glucose and leptin as well as ACTH, so it should be okay; however, on the Guelph U. site it states very clearly that a red-top or serum separator tube is required for insulin.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Miniature horse mare with laminitis

Paula Hancock
 

Hi Linda,

Sorry to hear your mini mare is having issues.  Yes, getting her off pasture is important, as well as making sure her diet follows the guidelines used by this group to rehab and maintain IR/PPID horses.  

Can someone put something on her feet to make her more comfortable while you find a good home for her? Or maybe put down some sand in a small area for her? Maybe some of our hoof rehab gurus could make suggestions on that.  The better she is doing, the better chance you have to rehome her.

If anyone is interested in rehabbing her, they can contact you privately.  Would you please post what your location is and a little more about the mare?

While she is under your/your son's care, anything you can do to improve her condition will help.  I am going to outline our approach that we have found very successful with laminitic horses.  Whatever can be done to help would be great!

To get more specific help for her, we need more information and we ask members to fill out a case history on their horse.  You need to join the case history subgroup here:

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory 

and then all of the information you'll need to fill out the CH is in the wiki here:  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/wiki 

If you have any trouble, just ask and help is available.  It can be a bit daunting at the start, but the better we understand your horse’s situation, the better advice we can provide.

Our philosophy is called DDT/E, short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise. Once you get your CH filled out, we'll be able to be much more specific with answers to any questions you have. 

DIAGNOSIS: The 4 tests that we recommend are ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin.  A horse can be both PPID and insulin resistant. Please include any lab results that you already have. There is a place in the CH form for you to list them.   If you don't have the actual results, ask your vet for a copy.  The ACTH is for diagnosing PPID; the insulin, glucose and leptin is to diagnose IR and if IR is controlled with the current diet. PPID (aka Cushings) is treated with the medication pergolide while IR is managed with a low sugar+starch diet. If a horse is both, medication and diet will be needed to effectively treat/avoid issues.

 

DIET:  The diet that we use is a low carb, (less than 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or less), mineral balanced diet.  We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.


If your horse is/may be IR or PPID, until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you use the emergency diet.  Details about the emergency diet can be found in the "start here" file:  


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/1%20Start%20Here   

 

There is lots of other helpful information in the start here file so recommend that you read the entire file.  The emergency diet involves soaking your hay (if not tested and known to be under 10% sugar+starch) for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water.  This removes about 30% of the sugar content, but no starch.  Make sure you dump the soaking water where the horse(s) can't get to it.  If is cold where you are, I would suggest getting your hay tested sooner rather than later to avoid having to soak.  Not a really fun job in the winter.

 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important, as what you do feed!  No pasture.  No grain.  No sugary treats, including apples and carrots.  No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron and sometimes molasses, and interfere with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only.  No products containing molasses.  No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, fat over about 4%.  So the list of safe carriers/feeds includes but is not limited to rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp, Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes (ODTB's) also now being sold by Triple Crown as Timothy Balance Cubes, Nuzu Stabul 1, and soy hull pellets. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID horses are usually too high in sugar and/or starch (usually starch), or fat.  It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID horses.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID horses as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, the starch is higher and does not soak out. Protein and calcium are also quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult. 

We like to use the #603 trainers package at EquiAnalytical for hay testing:

http://equi-analytical.com/ 

 

 You can also purchase a hay probe from them, but sometimes your local coop or extension service will have one that you can borrow.  Once you get your hay tested look here for help with getting it balanced:  

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/3.%20Getting%20Help%20With%20Mineral%20Balancing.pdf 

Trim: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis.  Look on the following pages of our website for more information about a proper trim.

  http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/ddt-overview/ddt-trim  

 

 http://ecirhorse.org/index.php/laminitis/realigning-trim 

After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, the trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic horse comfortable.  Sometimes horses with subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as having arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the horse attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have in the PHOTOS section of the case history group so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place.   Go to this section of the wiki to read about how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed and how to get the best hoof shots:


https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help

 

 Exercise: The best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic.  A horse that has had lamintis needs 6-9 months after a correct realigning trim is in place before any serious exercise can begin.  Once the horse is moving around comfortable at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic horse to move, they will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting their fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the horse wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can reach it easily without having to move any more than necessary. Also need to be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute is one) as that will mask pain and will encourage a the animal to do more than its fragile feet are actually able to withstand. We recommend limiting the use of NSAIDs as they will interfere with healing after the first week or so of use. 



OK, that gives you the basics of our DDT/E philosophy. There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website.  I find it helpful to  review this website to get a better understanding of the general approach and then ask specific questions via email.

 

 http://ecirhorse.org/  

 

We ask everyone to sign each time they post with their name, date of joining, and general location.  Once you get your CH done, please add a link to that in your signature as well.  It really helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster.  

Hope that helps!
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx




Seeking members in CO

nevabeta
 

Hi everyone,

 

I would like to ask the members, if anyone lives in, or has lived in CO, would you kindly contact me privately? I am planning a trip to look around the state, thinking of retiring there, & have questions about horsekeeping out there, as my mare is PPID & IR.

Email is nevabeta at aol dot com.

 

Many thanks!

 

Aimée




Re: Blood draw protocols

Barbara Rosensteel
 

I hope the veterinarian who collected the blood intended to draw it off and separate some into another tube before sending.  I asked the veterinarian if the one tube could be used for glucose and insulin as well, and she just answered "yes".  I didn't want to ask more  questions since it is not my horse, and I didn't want to step on the toes of the owner by asking questions of her veterinarian.  But, I seemed to remember that there were two tubes involved when I had it done for my horse years ago.  I will assume that the veterinarian separated it out once she got back to her clinic.

Thanks,
Barbara

--
Barbara Rosensteel

Sept 2007, Cookeville TN


Re: Copper Blood work and pergolide adjustments - Dr. Kellon

Jodie Jensen
 

Hi Stephanie,

I don't quite have an answer for you yet. I gave him his third shot on Sunday and he had blood drawn yesterday so I should have results on Monday. His crest is still quite large but his feet are less tender than they were 6 weeks ago. We have been hand walking 20-30 minutes a day for the last 2 weeks (5-6 days a week). I did notice that his crest is harder today after missing the walk Monday, having a shorter walk Tuesday and missing yesterday. We just did a solid 30 minutes today so I'll watch for changes tomorrow.

We also had some issues with him not eating after the second shot but he was fine after this last one. Maybe he had a little bit of a bug or something but it seems it will remain a mystery. He's eating fine now. If you saw the last test results, the ACTH went down significantly after the first shot but the insulin was up quite a bit. I'm hoping that was cold related as it was 34 and snowing for that blood draw and closer to 50 for the pre-cabergoline test. Yesterday was back to 50 degrees and I'm eager to get the results. Until then, we will keep on walking and hoping.
--
Jodie, Copper, Emmy and Gang

WA 2007

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodie%20and%20Copper%20-%20Emmy/Copper



Re: CH up, questions

Lorna Cane
 

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:41 am, Bonnie Eddy wrote:
I'm going to have to do her the best I can within my limits. 

 That's all any of us can do,Bonnie. Go for it.


If you contact one of the balancers on the list  you will get a good handle on how to proceed.

Way to go being so persistent !


--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Miniature horse mare with laminitis

whirlwind@...
 

I have a six year old miniature horse mare that has laminitis.   We can't keep her because we have pasture everywhere and we already have a 33 year old stallion that has to be muzzled and fed mush morning and night.  She would eat the food if we put her in with him and we don't have another place.  She was taken to my son's home because he doesn't have pasture but his area is decomposed granite and just too hard for her feet.  I want to give her to a good home and if anyone on this group could help with that or take her temporarily until her laminitis is better and then place her.  Thank you.  Linda Henwood


Re: Copper Blood work and pergolide adjustments - Dr. Kellon

Stephanie Stout
 

Hi Jodi,

I have been following along with Copper and the Cabergoline, and am wondering how he is doing on it? Have you noticed a difference? Is it more successful than the Pergolide?

King is on 25mg Pergolide, and I have an appointment to retest him next week. If his ACTH is too high still(which it might be) I might try the Cabergoline so curious as to how it went and what you think about it. 

Thanks!!
--
Stephanie & King
October 2014
Oregon
Case History 


Re: April - CH updated, bloods & recent trim

 

Hi, Becky - good work on the case history.  Keep posting on this list, because although the most recent blood tests show not IR, we still don't know for sure her PPID status, and previous history suggest she could be an IR type (bulges over eyes, cresty neck, etc).

Was the blood work done fasting, or did she have hay in front of her beforehand?

I noticed in your history that in the same time-frame as the laminitis, she had a fever, and went off her food. If she were mine, I would get her checked for Lyme. This laminitis event may be a one-off due to whatever she had going on at the time of the fever, but if it was Lyme it is important to know so you can be vigilant for relapses, and/or start treating for chronic Lyme.

That inch at the top near the coronary band is indeed the new hoof coming in at a better angle than the "old" hoof.  Taking the toe back will not cause the coffin bone to come through the sole; removing sole could do that, but not vertically rasping the toes. Also, there is no need to rasp the dorsal wall of the hoof to make it look like a normal hoof. Just let that "slipper" thing grow down, and continue to rasp the toes vertically back at the toes, not higher up the wall (if that makes sense) I will wait for Lavinia's comments, because I don't have a good eye for a foot, nor can I explain it very well.

According to the blood work (assuming it wasn't fasting blood work), a little grass should be okay, but watch her like a hawk; check for heat and pulses. If she were mine, I would muzzle her to put her out on the track.

Keep up the good work!

 
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: CH up, questions

Bonnie Eddy
 

Horray,  finally! Thank you Lorna

I have many questions. 

Dr Kellon already was able to tell me that my minerals aren't working and to get the U balance foundation. As to getting my hay balanced, I had the hay analyzed last December. Problem, we buy hay about every 6 weeks or even less.I can't analyze that frequently. I am limited on finances, energy and time due to life. Racham was supposed to be my easy horse. I've had her a year. I'm going to have to do her the best I can within my limits. 

So questions on suppliments. What do I do away with, what is necessary. She does have thin, shelly soles so needs something in that department. 

Hay question. I feed Orchard. I am not able to soak it. Would teft hay also be a consideration in addition? Timothy is outrageously expensive. 

Thank you, 

--
Bonnie with Racham from Southern California, Nov/2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bonnie%20and%20Racham


Re: Updated hoof pictures for markups

Jodie-hid@...
 

Hi LeeAnne,

No worries 😉  I have updated the naming of the body pictures.  I will rename the hoof pictures with corresponding angles as soon as possible.

--
Jodie Elwood 07-2016

Terrace, BC, Canada

Mojo - Case History, Photo Album


Re: Question re beetpulp and updated CH

 

Blitz is a good-looking boy! It is a little hard to tell from the angle of the shot, but his body weight looks good to me. However, you are the one there with him!

Good news on the Grunhafer and beet pulp working.  Loss of topline can be due to a number of things: insufficient protein in diet (I know she gets lysine, methionine and threonine, but if the meadow hay is very low in protein, it may not be enough); lack of formal exercise (which will be a part of it, since your bad weather and frozen ground have reduced her recent exercise); PPID (she is rather young for that to be a player); saddle fit. These horses are very lucky to have you as their mum, because you clearly keep digging til you get things figured out for them.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: Blood draw protocols

 

Hi, Barbara - although some labs will say that they can do insulin and glucose from plasma (lavendar-top tube), it is best to use a serum-separator tube to ask for the insulin, glucose, and leptin. I learned this the hard way by sending only lavender-top tubes to Guelph for one of the blood draws, and was told they could use it only for ACTH, not insulin and glucose.  It is still the same blood draw; the vet just switches tubes on the vacutainer holder. No need to stick the horse twice.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy




Re: CH up, questions

Lorna Cane
 

Bingo ! 



--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002




Re: CH up, questions

Bonnie Eddy
 

Uploaded the CH again as a doc. file, can someone please tell me if the link now works. 

Thanks, 
--
Bonnie with Racham from Southern California, Nov/2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bonnie%20and%20Racham


Re: IR horse got into grass

 

HI Kim,

I copied the info from the link for you hoping that you may be able to read.

Emergency Protocol for Horse That Got Out on Grass

(Thanks to EC Member Vicki Kline, SE PA 11/02 for compiling this)

“We've had many experiences with "break outs" on the list over the years, and the vast majority of horses don't have any serious consequences if they have been carefully managed and controlled before the grass episode happened.”

~ Eleanor M. Kellon, VMD June 18, 2010

Note: several of these suggestions require that you have certain products or wraps on hand ahead of time:

• Some members have administered UAA gel (activated charcoal) asap; biosponge is an alternative. These products work in hind gut overload issues, fungal or bacterial toxins or infections, not usually involved in grass binge situations. Another product mentioned is MMP Stop which is not appropriate. (See more below)

• Soak in cold water, preferably with ice, as much as possible for first 48 hours. The advice in one post was to stand the horse in ice water for at least 6 hours.

For horses that won't stand to soak, or if you can't do 6 hours straight, some alternatives are:

  • using ice boots (tractor tire inner tubes can be used if you don't have the actual ice boot product; wire tie one end of the inner tube closed and duct tapethe top; I actually use them to soak and use bungee cords from one boot, over the withers and down to the other boot; I put a towel under the cord at the withers).

  • place a thin towel around the lower leg and tape baggies (freezer bags work better since they are thicker) or disposable gloves filled with ice on the leg and/or coronary band; bags of frozen peas will work as well.

    cotton stall bandages can be soaked in alcohol and chilled in the freezer (minimum 60 minutes); apply to horse's lower leg/coronary band and cover with aluminum foil and an outer polo or cotton wrap; having more than one pair would allow you to freeze one while using one.

    • cold hose as frequently as possible.

    • Increase magnesium up to (not by) 10 grams per day.
    • Administer metformin (30 mg/kg) 2 times per day for a few days. • Exercise if the horse is able. 

--
Robyn & Toons 

North Bay, CA

April 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robyn%20and%20Toons




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