Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - fliers available!

Sarah Braithwaite

Hi Nancy

Thanks for this, just checking I haven't missed the sponsors email as of course I will sponsor the conference again.

Regards Sarah

Forageplus Ltd
Unit 10
Broncoed Business Park
Ffordd Nercwys

Tel: 01352 700841

On 6 May 2017, at 17:40, Nancy C <threecatfarm@...> wrote:

We’ve had several requests for fliers for our ECIR Group Inc 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference in Tucson, AZ, to distribute to vets, farriers, and fellow horse friends.

I’m happy to announce they are available! Many thanks to ECIR Group Inc. Director Fran for her hard work in designing them. 

Professionals are contacting us upon learning of CE credits (see below) through IVIS, our websites, FB, and word of mouth, so it is a good time to get this info to your contacts.

Please contact Fran or our Conference host, Leigh, at the emails below for more information.

Leigh — equinesrfun “at” yahoo “dot” com
Fran — jazzerfrn “at” aol “dot” com

Attendees of the 2011, 2013, and 2015 conferences welcomed the latest in research and specific protocols used to improve the welfare of equines in their care. The 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference will continue to build on that mission:

When:      The weekend of October 27 - 29, 2017
Where:     Tucson Hilton East, Tucson, AZ

If you are ready to register for the conference and book your room, you may do so online through the gorgeous and info-packed

Speakers:    Eleanor M. Kellon, VMD
                          Robert M. Bowker, VMD, PhD
                          Jaini Clougher, BSc, BVSc
                          Kathleen Gustafson, PhD
                          Lisa Lancaster, DVM, PhD
                          Lavinia Fiscaletti, BS - Trimmer, Moderator/Senior ECIR Group Member
                          Paige Poss, APF, Anatomy of the Equine, LLC        
                          Carol Layton, BSc, M.Ed, Balanced Equine Nutrition

Full schedule and lecture information at the conference website

Attendees:   Any professional or owner who has one or more horses in their care.

Continuing Education:

AAVSB RACE: This program 817-29300 is approved by the AAVSB RACE to offer a total of 13.00 CE Credits (13.00 max) being available to any one veterinarian, and/or 13.00 Veterinary Technician CE Credits (13.00 max). This RACE approval is for the subject matter categories of Category One: Scientific using the delivery method of Seminar/Lecture. This approval is valid in jurisdictions which recognize AAVSB RACE, however, participants are responsible for ascertaining each board's CE requirements. RACE does not "accredit" or "endorse" or "certify" any program or person, nor does RACE approval validate the content of the program.

This event has been approved for 21 American Association of Professional Farriers (AAPF) Continuing Education Credits. For more information visit their website:

Pacific Hoof Care Practitioners (PHCP) has approved 20 Elective or CE credits for members attending the 2017 NO Laminitis Conference.

This event has been approved by the International Association of Animal Behavior Consultants for 16 Lecture hour CEUs. For more info see

Ticket Pricing: $280 Full Lecture Admission
                                $250 Early-bird (Registration prior to 09.23.17)
                                $100 Guest (Social functions only - No lecture)
                                $175 Veterinary students      

        (No children under 16 at lectures)

Pricing includes Thursday Night Meet-and-Greet, dinner Friday night and lunch Friday and Saturday. Breakfast is included for attendees staying at the Hilton.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group

Re: Abdominal pitting edems

Karen Warne

That was my question regarding the bute... I'm waiting to hear back from her.  His chemistry was good and I was told liver, kidney, etc all looked good...  I don't think a CBC was done.  I will be asking about that.  I just couldn't think of any reason why  he would have this, except that he's new on thyroxine, etc., but even the...


Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California

Re: Abdominal pitting edems


Hi, Karen - There are a ton of reasons for ventral edema, some harmless, some not. Best to get a complete blood chemistry and CBC to rule out liver issues, etc. 

Why does your vet want Luke back on bute if he is not sore? That seems a little odd to me. 

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

Re: New Member- 18 year old gelding with severe laminitis


Hi, and welcome to the group. I am sorry you and your MFT are having all these issues.

First thing first: start him on the Temporary Emergency Diet. It consists of hay soaked for 1 hour in cold water, or 30 minutes in hot water, with the water drained where the horses can't get at it. To this, add 3 ounces of either freshly ground flax, or stabilized ground flax (eg, Omega Horseshine); 1 tablespoon of table salt; 2,000 IU vitamin E in capsules that have soy oil in them; and 1 tsp of magnesium oxide (you should be able to get that from the feed store). You can use a carrier of rinsed/soaked/rinsed unmolassed beet pulp pellets to get the salt etc into him. Alternatively, TC Naturals Timothy Balance cubes, which are distributed by Triple Crown, are a safe feed to use as a carrier.

Stop the Triple Crown feed (which one is he on? Many of them are not really suitable for IR or Cushing's horses). Don't feed anything but the Temporary Emergency Diet - no apples, carrots, treats of any kind, no pasture (I see you have already gotten him off pasture).

I wouldn't force him to stand up - just have his hay and water where he can get them from his down position.

The symptoms of Cushing's and insulin resistance can overlap, and both can include the cresty neck, puffiness in the eye hollows, and laminitis.  I don't blame you one bit for starting the Prascend before getting blood tests - I would have done the same in your circumstances. Normally, it is better to titrate the Prascend dose up slowly, by 0.25 mg every 4 days, until you reach the 1 mg given once daily. This helps to prevent the "Pergolide Veil", a transient condition of lethargy and lack of appetite.  If he is still lethargic and sleepy, it could be due to the Prascend, or to the laminitis.

You have a couple of options for figuring out what to do with regards to the Prascend.  If it were me, I would leave him on the current dose and order in some APF Pro  and start him on that. I wouldn't change the Prascend until he has been on the Emergency Diet for at least a week, and has been on the APF Pro for several days minimum.

Meanwhile, can you get one of the vets come out to pull blood? The list uses the mantra of Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise as a systematic approach to IR, PPID and laminitis. 

Diagnosis: Going by the symptoms, your horse is most likely at least insulin-resistant, and should be treated as such. Spring laminitis is more consistent with IR than Cushing's, but the horses don't always read the textbooks, so blood testing is in order. Blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse  in a quiet paddock or barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, and leptin and ACTH. The blood for the ACTH goes in the purple-topped blood tubes, the blood for insulin, glucose and leptin goes in red-topped tubes. Even if you could trailer right now, you shouldn't, as trailering horses can cause a falsely elevated ACTH.

More information at these locations:


Diet: This was discussed in the first part of the post, and I think is the most important thing to address right now, while you are organizing other things. Don't wait until you have the beet pulp, flax, magnesium, and vitamin E - start soaking the hay, and sprinkle salt on the hay. There are some hay soaking tips here (ignore the use of "NSC"., which is outmoded, and reference to the Safer Grass website)  

Trim: This is an important piece of the puzzle to aid the horse's comfort.  If you could please take photographs of your horse's hooves, and upload them to the photo section of the list:  Instructions for getting useful hoof photos are on the Wiki page; scroll down to Photos and Hoof Evaluation Help. 

Exercise: That won't be happening at all for a while. Let him move as he wants, but don't force him to move. He shouldn't be ridden for at least 8 months, and better 12 months, after the laminitis has subsided and proper healing has started. 

Short form: Soak the hay. Sprinkle salt on it. Organize the other items in the Temp Emergency Diet. \Order the APF Pro.Organize a vet, even a small animal vet, to come out and pull blood. Read the hoof photo instructions, and take hoof pictures (you can take pictures while he is lying down). 

Hang in there. Keep asking questions.  Once you have caught your breath a bit, and taken care of the above items, join the Case History group so that you can download and fill out a case history form. This information allows the volunteers to give you the most accurate information for your horse.

Again, hang in there, and keep breathing.


Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

Vitamin K and IR


Hello Members,

I searched messages and did not find adequate info on Vitamin K and IR. I came across the following article and am wondering if anyone commented it on it previously or could do so now. I don't remember seeing Vitamin K listed in any of the supplements that I used to give and do not believe it is in the custom mineral balanced to hay.

Thank you.

Robyn & Toons 

North Bay, CA

April 2016

Re: Abdominal pitting edems

Karen Warne

Abdominal pitting edems

Karen Warne

Trying to figure this out... I sent this picture to my vet, but, the last few days my horse, diagnosed 04-25-2017 with IR, has abdominal pitting edema.  He is afebrile, heartrate 36, eating, drinking, pooping, peeing fine.   He is eating good.  His feet shoe no obvious signs of lameness.  He is on stall with a paddock only, NO pasture for two weeks.  At all.   Initially, I thought his belly had fat pads, but yesterday I found that these pads are pitting and have the characteristics of edema vs fat.

He has been on the emergency diet for at least a week, maybe two, minus the magnesium as I am waiting it's delivery, and was started on L-thyroxine and Metaloeeze on 04-26-2017.  He is getting these Rx in a mash with 1 lb LMF Stage 1, 1/2 cup stabilized flax seed, 1-2 tbsp iodized salt, and 2 oz California trace.   He was getting but 1 gm Bute once q day for the last week, with yesterday being his last day to get that.  However, my vet has said to restart the bute at twice a day for three more days.  

Is there ANY reason he might be having abdomen edema with 2+ pitting?   


Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California

Re: Triamcinolone - PS - Follow up questions


Oh Dr. Kellon - You so clearly provided the information I needed regarding the difference between the two: Triamcinolone and Stanozolol. I am not sure my follow up question is appropriate here - please let me know if better placed in Housekeeping.

My questions:

Would you look at the X-rays to advise where the joint should be injected?

How often is the Stanozolol injected? 

Do you have success with clients or know of clients whose horses's bones (such as in the hock) fused and it made them more comfortable and able to move more effortlessly - and/or without pain.

If the hock is a hinge joint, wouldn't the fusion of bones inhibit the flexibility of the joint? 

Thanks so, so very much.

Robyn & Toons 

North Bay, CA

April 2016

Pepper's Blood Results

Sherry Hite

Pepper's spring blood work was done last week and I received the results yesterday.  They have been added to her case history.  ACTH, Glucose, Leptin, and Progesterone are all within normal range.  However, her insulin was the highest it has ever been... over 200!  I have been soaking her night hay since last fall to reduce the digestible energy via a reduction in ESC so she could have a little more to get her through the night.  Today I also started soaking her day hay.  I have a couple of questions.  When she is going to have her insulin tested I usually try to make sure she consistently has hay in front of her for 4-5 hours before the blood is drawn.  This time I made the extra effort to get up much earlier so that she had food for 7 hours before the testing.  She was fed unsoaked hay.  Is it possible that this extended period time of eating may have caused the drastic increase in her insulin?  I may be reaching for stars, but I am now wondering if the hay analysis given to me by my hay supplier may not have been accurate.  He is very trustworthy and I have used him for years without any issue but I wonder if somehow the hay he tested was not what ended up stored in his storage building.   I sent a sample into Equi Analytical this morning.  Another question.. this hay is a higher protein than she has had in the past (14.7% vs 9-10%)... could this be contributing to the uncontrolled insulin?  My understanding is that they just excrete any excess through urination. The ESC is also 6.7% which is higher than the previous 5% of last years hay.  Other than the suspicions around the hay, I am at a complete loss as to which rock to turn over next looking for an answer.  I would greatly appreciate any ideas this group can offer.  
Sherry & Pepper, August 2015, No. Calif

Case History:

Photo Album:  .

Re: Metformin Hydrochloride


Hi Sue,

Welcome back,  but sorry you need to be here.  As you know, to get the very best answers to your questions, we ask that all members fill out a case history on their horse.  To do that you need to join the case history subgroup here:  

And then all of the information you'll need to fill out the CH is in the wiki here: 

If you have any trouble, just ask and help is available.  It can be a bit daunting at the start, but the better we understand your horse’s situation, the better advice we can provide.

I did look for your old CH in the CH subgroup, but did not see it.  Here are the instructions for Migrated members:  If you don't have any better luck finding your CH than I did, then contact LeeAnne as per the instructions in the above link.

There is a ton of new information on metformin since 2002!  For the best way to search the archived messages look in the wiki here: 

To get you started, here's a list of messages containing the word "metformin" by Dr Kellon: 

and also a list from Jaini using "metformin": 

Not sure why you are wanting to use metformin, but long story short is that metformin can be useful short term to decrease insulin levels (not the ACTH) but loses effectiveness in horses after a few months. 

Since your horse is already diagnosed with Cushing's (PPID) some questions to consider would be:

When was your horse diagnosed with Cushing's (PPID)?  Is she on pergolide?  What dose?  When was the last time you checked an ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin?  Is the current dose of pergolide controlling the ACTH?

We recommend at least yearly checking of ACTH levels, preferably late summer/early fall (start of the seasonal rise) to make sure that the current dose of pergolide is controlling the ACTH.  More information about the seasonal rise here: 

If you have blood work already, please tell us the results so we can help you sort through things.  There's a place in the CH form to put all the lab work.  

A few details about out DDT/E (Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise) philosophy.....

Diagnosis:  As above.  If you haven't done blood work lately, suggest ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin level sent to Cornell.  More info here: 

Diet:  Is your mare on a mineral balanced diet?  If not, I would suggest starting the emergency diet.  Details here: 

The emergency diet is to be used temporarily until you can get your hay tested and balanced.  The ultimate goal is to feed him a low carb, (less than 10% sugar+starch) low fat (4% or less), mineral balanced diet.  We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% sugar + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E.  This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse.

Send a sample of your hay in for analysis.  Lots of us use  Ask for the #603, trainer's package for $54.  Call them and ask for some free forage kits.  They contain everything you need (except the hay probe) to send your analysis in.  Lots of coops and extension agencies have hay probes that you can borrow.  You can also look in out Regional Members Database to see if there's anyone near you that might be willing to lend one: 

Once you get you hay analysis back, contact one of the diet balancers for help with getting him a mineral balanced diet: 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important, as what you do feed!  No pasture, I already discussed.  No grain.  No sugary treats, including apples and carrots.  No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron and sometimes molasses, and interfere with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only.  No products containing molasses.  No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, fat over about 4%.  Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID horses are usually too high in sugar and/or starch (usually starch), or fat.  It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID horses.

Here's a list of safe carriers for your minerals:

rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp

soy hull pellets

Nuzu Stabul 1 (available at Tractor Supply)
ODTB cubes Also know as Timothy Balance cubes in the US: 
LMF Low NSC Stage 1
LMF Low NSC Complete  

(LMF Senior Low Carb: fat too high at 8%)
Haystack Low Carb/Low Fat Pellets 
Poulin E-Tec Carb Safe (but 6% fat)
Poulin Feed Comparison chart   

And a list of safe "stop gap" ration balancers, but never as good as testing and balancing your hay: 

Trim:  A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot.  Though important for all horses, it's essential for an IR and/or PPID horse to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis.  Look on the following pages of our website for more information about a proper trim. 

After any potential triggers are removed from the diet (and in PPID horses, the ACTH is under control), the trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic horse comfortable.  Sometimes horses with subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as having arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the horse attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

Boots and pads are an important part of getting the horse comfortable.   Some good choices are Soft Rides and Easy Boot clouds, and Easy Boot Rx's.  There are others, but members here have had good luck with these. 

Would encourage you to post hoof pictures and any radiographs you have in the PHOTOS section of the case history group so our hoof guru can help you to determine if you have an optimal trim in place.   Go to this section of the wiki to read about how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed and how to get the best hoof shots: 

Exercise: The best IR buster there is, but only if the horse is comfortable and non-laminitic,.  A horse that has had lamintis needs 6-9 months after a correct realigning trim is in place before any serious exercise should begin.  No exercise should begin while the horse is on NSAIDS as they can mask the pain and allow the horse to do more than he should, damaging the fragile new laminae.  In fact, NSAIDS are not recommended after the first few days of laminitis as they interfere with healing.

Allowing movement around at liberty in a safe environment where there is no grass and s/he won't get chased by other horses is a safe place to start.  When s/he is more comfortable, hand walking in long straight lines with no tight turns can begin.  Never force a foot sore horse to move.

That wraps up the basics of our DDT/E philosophy.  There's a TON more information on our website ( ), in our files and in the archived messages. 

Please sign each time you post with your name (first if fine--thanks for that!) date of joining, and general location.  Once you get your CH done, please add a link to that in your signature as well.  It really helps us to find it faster and answer your questions faster.  You can set up your signature to attach automatically through the "subscription" tab on the site.

Don't hesitate to ask any further questions you have!  Give us more details Sue and we can help you better!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Hay analysis

Vanessa Register

I have a new orchard hay's analysis.

the grower did it for me.

the WS sugar I said 15

ESC Is 6.6

Starch .2

i know I use the ESC and starch to get my number 6.8

but I have never seen WS sugars at 15.

should I be concerned?

Vanessa register

yucaipa ca

jan 2011

Re: Metformin Hydrochloride

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Sue,

Do you have the link to your old case history or do you remember which case history group it was in?

Metformin is a drug used to treat IR, not PPID.

What "symptoms" is your vet attempting to treat with the metformin?
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

New Member- 18 year old gelding with severe laminitis


I purchased a rescue 18 year old gelding a year and a half ago. In early March he started showing signs of being lame in his front feet.  He has put on weight since I've had him, but he was very thin when I first got him.  But now I realize he was showing signs of Cushings or IR in March as he was starting to go lame. I live in a very small rural community in Northwest Oklahoma and the vets in this area are mainly cattle and small animal oriented.  None of local vets I use had even heard of Prascend or of the type of test needed to be done to see if the levels were off.  I know I am going to be looked down on because I didn't have the test run before I put my horse on Prascend.  I finally had a vet that ordered it and I purchased it from them.  He has all the symptoms of Cushings - thick crested neck, long hair that doesn't want to shed, puffiness in the hollow above his eyes, and now this horrible case of laminitis.  I guess my main question is - am I prolonging the inevitable by trying to help him ?  I have to make him get up in the mornings.  Once he is up he does stay up all day until the evening but he has a horrible time moving around. I do not have him in a stall or shed - I fenced off an area in my pasture ( very small area, no grazing)  that is close to my house so I can get his feed and water to him.  I have been giving him 1.5 mg ( a pill and a half) of Prascend  as of yesterday. I started with just 1 mg - half in the morning and half in the evening 3 weeks ago. The medicine makes him lethargic and sleepy.  I have not been able to see any improvement as far as the medicine helping. I have him on grass hay (it's good Bermuda) and Triple Crown feed for horses with Metabolic Problems. He seems to be eating good. But there is a lot of waste because he insists on pawing his feed pan.  I have no way of having his feet x-rayed because there is no way I could trailer him.  I'm going to say he weighs at least a 1,000 or 1,100 pounds (but has lost probably 100 since this started) and is maybe a Missouri Fox Trotter. He has a wonderful gait.  I did order him a pair of the easy boots cloud shoes.  Can't really see that they are helping. I guess I am just beside myself as to what to do.  I'm 54 , had horses all my life and this is the first time I've dealt with something like this. Just don't want to put him through anymore if he's not going to have any quality of life.  My heart is breaking.  Any advice would be appreciated.    

Metformin Hydrochloride

Sue Hansen

My vet prescribed  13,500 mg. of Metformin Hydrochloride for my Cushings mare who is now 28.  He said there have been some horses who have responded well to it.  The only thing I could find on it for this group was back in 2002.  I did have my horses information when you were with Yahoo, but can't locate it now.  I would like to update it.

Sue Hansen & Dawn

Re: New Hoof Radiograph: DP xray added

Stephanie Stout

Hi Dr. Kellon, Lavinia, and everyone,

I just uploaded King's DP xray from last week. He got a bunch of hoof trimmed off yesterday, and I'm hoping to get some pictures of his hoof this evening to post.

Thank you very much.,,,20,1,0,0

Stephanie & King
October 2014
Case History 

Re: Roasted Soya Bean for extra protein?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Estrogen comes from the ovaries and also testicles (stallions have high estrogen).  It is GOOD for IR, increases sensitivity to insulin. Phytoestrogens block the effects of natural estrogens but this depends on dose. Another reason to avoid soy is that both whole beans and meal can be too high in sugar and starch. Beans have high omega-6 inflammatory fats.
Eleanor in PA 

EC Owner 2001

Re: Cushings and Laminitis in 12 year old 10hh mare

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Sandra,

Took a look at the xrays - they really aren't all that bad, esp. considering this is a small pony. Although there is significant sinking, the "rotation" is mostly capsular (trim-related) so can be fixed fairly quickly. There is no reason to believe she can't become sound and be able to do some kind of work in the not-too-distant future. Toes are all too long in the horizontal plane so need to be backed up. Heels a tad too high.

Biggest problem is that insulin, which needs to be controlled. Pergolide will only help to the extent that PPID is driving the problem. Extremely tight, mineral balanced diet and exercise (not possible right now) will be the most important parts of getting the insulin under control. Metformin is a valid stop-gap measure but isn't a long-term solution as its effects wear off over time.

Is the diet listed in the case history current? If so, need to immediately stop pasture, oaten chaff, Hygain Sporthorse, sea salt, activated charcoal. What are the pain herbs - many are not suitable for an IR horse. Soaking any hay you are feeding for 30 min in hot water or 60 min in cold will help lower sugars.

The blood work lists Cupcakes age as 20yo? That would make a lot of sense, given the high ACTH. It also wouldn't be the first time a pony turns out to be much older than the sellers had claimed.

Hang in there, this doesn't look as bad as the vet has proclaimed.
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team

Re: Roasted Soya Bean for extra protein?

Shelley Helmer

Hi Nancy. I was thinking about what you said about that more an issue with mares or would the concern also apply to a gelding? Is the issue because the estrogen "begins" in the pituitary gland and that is the gland we want to avoid triggering?

Thanks in advance,


Re: whey protein isolate?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

They can do the TRH at the same time. Blood will be drawn for the other tests and baseline ACTH then TRH given and another sample in 10 to 15 minutes.
Eleanor in PA 

EC Owner 2001

Re: Cushings and Laminitis in 12 year old 10hh mare

Lorna Cane

Sandra,I took a look for the links we need to help you.

Here they are:

Every time you post a message add your name,location,date of joining,and these 2 links so that we can find Cupcake's information easily,ok?

Got to Wiki to learn how to make an automatic signature,so that you won't have to type it out each time.

Keep breathing. Have I said that already?


Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

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