Date   

Re: New trim (done 2017-05-31) evaluation request. 2nd request.

Sandy Carr
 

Thank you VERY much Lavinia.  Andy's appointment has been change to tomorrow, Friday, so I passed on your recommendations and markups to the farrier via email.

He texted me this morning with this:  "Hello Sandy.  I got your email and the drawings don't seen as far off as his write up indicated.  I can be a little more aggressive but it's a process and I would rather keep him comfortable too."

I looked on the EDSS site and saw he is a CNBBT.  He should understand what you are saying right?  Is there anything you would say to him, knowing his training, that would help him?  LOL, other than "do what I say"?  At the trim expense of $50 and 4 hour round trip driving for each, yes, I would love to get it done and be on the way to a "healing" mode.  But I guess I can understand farriers being leery.  I just don't know enough to be a "participant" in any of the trimming (Pete Ramey's original book is on the way though!).

Would be cool if you were allowed to talk to our farriers on the phone...but that would probably be a never-ending thing.  

Thanks again for all your help!
--
Sandy

 

March 2017, Corona, New Mexico, USA

Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandy%20and%20Andy . 
                        https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6171 .


Re: Weight loss/Pergolide Veil

spateperry@...
 

Jaini Clougher, thank you for the quick and thorough advise and links. I think I have his case history uploaded correctly now which will answer some of your questions. You will see his ACTH results. Vet did not test insulin/glucose/leptin, so I will work on that. After arachnid injury and tracheotomy in Feb 2016, he lost significant weight and never gained back to original weight.  I knew he did not feel well and took me all summer and 3 veterinarians to finally diagnose PPID with the ACTH results. I consulted independent equine nutritionist in Dec. 2016 to advise me (see supplements, etc in case history).  I added the ProForce Fiber as it seems the only feed he will eat.  I will work on changing his diet.  I do not have local access to any of these feed products.  I can special order beet pulp w/out molasses and/or the Triple Crown products.  Both require about a week (welcome to my world in MS).  I am currently driving 6 hrs to TN for the Crypto-Aero. I do have Alfalfa cubes without molasses at barn I can try him on? He has access to slow feed nets of bermuda hay (will upload analysis) and StandLee Alfalfa Hay 24/7.
--
Sandra, Mississippi 06/10/2017, Blau Case History


Re: Prascend and Chaste Tree berries

Lorna Cane
 
Edited

Hi Kathy, 


Can you fill in missing details of Donna's case history for the volunteers?
Double check the dates, too...for example, I think some dates should read 2016, rather than 2017.

Donna appears to be IR, but I'd like other feedback on that.This can require management changes for her.

Can you review messages from May, especially from Lavinia, which provide the clickable link for Donna's case history. That link needs to be added to your signature instead of Donna Case History, which doesn't link to anything. The clickable link makes it possible for volunteers to go directly to the CH without having to search for it. Saves time.

Thanks.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

 

 


Re: Cool Stance?.....I tried both ways....now I can't reply using body of message.....ughhh

Lorna Cane
 

And if we type in "cool stance", using the  " ..."  , we get an even more refined set of messages.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

 

 


Re: Cool Stance?.....I tried both ways....now I can't reply using body of message.....ughhh

 

Click on the 'Messages' tab on the list along the left of the page.
Click on the 'Search' tab at the top of the list on messages that come up, it's next to a topics tab
Enter coolstance.....all one word, press enter.....I had 95 sets of messages pop up, and you can explore from there.......
--
Cami Kanner

 

Vero Beach, FL

0815


Re: Metformin paste causing rash/burn inside lips?

 

We've had a couple of reports of Metformin (when syringed into the mouth) appearing to cause mouth ulcers.

 

However, we don't hear of many horses taking Metformin now, as, other than Rendle et al 2013 which showed that giving 30 mg/kg bodyweight metformin 60 minutes before a rice bran feed containing 0.5 mg dextrose (glucose) per kg bodyweight led to reduced glucose and insulin levels compared to controls, and concluded that "the potential benefit of these effects in horses fed appropriate forage that is low in nonstructural carbohydrates versus more glycaemic diets, such as grass, forage with a high nonstructural carbohydrate concentration and cereals, may be questionable", we are not aware of any credible research showing a benefit of giving Metformin to horses.  Durham et al 2008 is often cited as suggesting efficacy of Metformin treatment, but without controls this research is not credible, and the purported benefits have not been repeated in later research.   

 

In an Equine Laminitis veterinary webinar last month by the Royal Veterinary College, Nicola Menzies-Gow suggested: "the drug that came out with a bang and everyone was feeding was Metformin - it has since gone out of fashion.  Metformin is used in human T2DM and shown to improve IS and decrease insulin concentrations in humans, but it was given to horses before it was worked out how much was absorbed by the horse, it was worked out retrospectively that only 7% was absorbed & 93% ended up on stable floor in droppings.  Studies have shown no effect on IR horses - it doesn’t improve IS.  The only beneficial effect it might have is it reduces gastrointestinal glucose absorption & therefore insulinaemic response (but for how long after administration?)" (from my notes, not direct quote).

 

Andrea

www.thelaminitissite.org

France/UK 2010


Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly, Thu, 6/15/17 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly

When:
Thursday, 15 June 2017

Description:

This is a high volume list that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the Message Posting Guidelines below:
 
1) READ the Start Here Documents.  Unless you are in an emergency situation, before posting in the messages, please read the documents you were sent upon joining.  They are designed to speed you through the set up process so we can help you help your equine in the most efficient way possible. 
2) Check the Wiki for "How To" Pages (and more).  The ECIR has lots of information and finding your way around can be tricky. The Wiki is the place to start. 
3) Sign your posts. This is a very large group.  Whenever posting a message, identify yourself and your equine by using your full ECIR Signature with your first name, location, the date you joined and the link to your Case History folder and Photo Album. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses and perhaps suggestions for local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. Go here for directions on how to make and save your ECIR Signature
 
4) Be clear in your posts. If you need to quote a line from a message: BEFORE you hit the Reply button highlight the text you want quoted, then hit Reply.  The highlighted portion will appear as quote in your message. 
 
5)  Try not to hijack threads.  Start a New Message to discuss issues not covered by the subject line.    
 
6) Don't immediately re-post.  Give “missing” posts a few hours before reposting. For unanswered messages, be patient, a lack of response is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed. With so many posts some do get missed and sometimes research is needed for a quality reply. Unless in an emergency situation, wait roughly 48 hours before re-posting and edit the subject line with "2nd Post". 
7) Off-topic but horse-related discussions: ECHorsekeeping provides a place to discuss issues involving non-PPID/IR horses, general horse keeping practices, other equine health issues, alternative therapies and other equine related philosophical debates.

 
Thank you for your cooperation.
 
- Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the Equine Cushings List


Re: New trim (done 2017-05-31) evaluation request. 2nd request.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sandy,

I've added  a couple of mark-ups to Andy's album:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6171&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0

Although all the feet need to have the heels brought back, that can't be done until there is sole depth to work with. It looks like there was a a bit of toe length removed the last round(good thing)  but that there was also overall vertical height lost and the heels brought back. Flaring does not appear to have been addressed in a meaningful way. There appears to have been too much emphasis put on leaving the feet looking "normal" rather than on getting the mechanics in place. During rehab, the hoof capsules may very well look odd as you need to establish the correct breakover, retain capsular height to compensate for the thin soles and sinking and bevel flared walls inward. If you continue to maintain the current ground level angles, you will never be able to get the hoof capsule realigned to the position of the bony column within.

The only time you can move heels back is going to be IF the collateral grooves at their deepest part are over 1" deep. Anything less than that means leave them alone. Need to make sure the medial and lateral collateral groove depth on each separate foot is equal for that foot so that the medial-lateral balance is correct. 

LF dorsal comparison: These are the photos from 5/23 and 6/6 side-by-side. As you can see, there was little to no reduction in the flaring. From the top, bring the flared wall in the bottom 1/3 of the hoof capsule inward to where it should be. Bevel under to remove the outer wall from ground contact.

LF lateral: Back the toe between 10 and 2, from the top, to remove horizontal length only. Then, finish by bringing in the rest of the adjacent wall inward proportionally so the result does not leave the foot with squared off "corners". Bevel under to finish - I "erased" what needs to be removed.

RF sole: I marked this to show how to determine what needs to be removed in the toe length. Find the center of the foot (yellow). Then measure from that point back to the correct heel position (purple line), which is even with the dimple in the frog and the widest part of the frog. Take that measurement (orange line) and use it to determine where the toe should end (pink line). Orange and pink line should be the same length, based on length of the orange line.
Here is a link to more info on how to determine these positions:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/album?id=1106

Read the ELPO Hoof Mapping Protocol.

Focus on getting the toes back and flares controlled on this round. Use the same parameters to bring the toes back on all the feet.

--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

EC Support Team


Re: Cayuse's ACTH, insulin steadily increasing over 5 years - 13 yo IR mare

 

I've wondered about this, Jaini, since this mare shows no signs of cycling, except for the single occasion she flopped on the ground groaning. We thought it was colic but there was no impaction. A big fat follicle was detected.

I've also seen no evidence of laminitis - - unless hock arthritis (confirmed by X-rays) is masking it. Today we took a mile long walk on a gravel road, and she showed no resistance or tenderness.

Does it make sense to run the hormone tests without laminitis? The treatment certainly seems benign enough.
--
Cass for Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

Cayuse Case History


Re: Prascend and Chaste Tree berries

Kathy Thomas
 

I had my vet out about 2 weeks ago to give  my mare shots, and pull blood.  (Her numbers were all within the normal range.)
He said that she could have Quiessence, Equine Super Diet Vitamins, and Podium, which she had been getting all along....1/4 lb. 2x a day.  She hates mushy food, and therein lies my problem.
For some reason, about a week ago, she started acting strange.  She refuses to go through the same old gate in the stable yard, and when enforced, she will lunge forward, and almost gallop over me.  Her coat has not 100 % shed out, esp. on her neck and chest.  I stopped the Quiessence and vitamins, but the behaviour  persists.  She has become very spooky, and not a treat to ride these days..  I contacted my vet, and he said to up her pergolide to 11/2 mg.  from just 1 mg.

She is a super picky eater, but I will persist with the CTB, as she needs to shed out more.  Overall, her coat looks shiny and her weight is good.  She also gets Timothy Balance Cubes.  Any advice would be appreciated.


--
Kathy 2017 and Donna

 

Harrowsmith, Ontario

Donna Case History


Re: Cayuse's ACTH, insulin steadily increasing over 5 years - 13 yo IR mare

 

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 05:03 pm, Paula Hancock wrote:
I would be alarmed and taking action.  Her insulin is high, her BCS is high and her ACTH is high normal.  To clarify her PPID status, a number of us have used the TRH stim test.  It is best to get that done soon as it is most reliable before or after the seasonal rise.  It would be a good time to review the DDTE protocol to see what improvements can be made.  She shouldn't be getting any grass.  If she is not PPID, what has changed that might be pushing her insulin levels up?

Thanks for your time, Paula.

Cayuse does not get any grass now and hasn't since late September. The only time she is has been allowed access to "pasture" is late summer, when grasses are completely dormant here in Northern California. The grasses are annual grasses with the a few scattered perennial grasses. They are not very palatable. The testing I've done on dormant grasses here shows they are low in ESC (in the 5% range) and have no starch. It's more of an opportunity for stimulation, to move around in a different fenced area, roll, buck and play and is done muzzled and supervised for a couple of hours at a time.

There have been no management changes to explain steady increases over the years except aging (hers and mine) and inadequate exercise. She has arthritic hocks, so round pen work is less than ideal. I am not able to ride much anymore due to my own aging.

Could her iron status promote worse IR? I will run another KSU iron panel to check the status of that. 

I'll also talk to my vet about a TRH stimulation test. Frankly, I'd rather spend the money trialing a low dose of pergolide to see if it helps, but if that isn't advisable, then a TRH test it will be.

--
Cass for Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

Cayuse Case History


Re: Cool Stance?.....I tried both ways....now I can't reply using body of message.....ughhh

Linda A <ojaildy@...>
 


Metformin paste causing rash/burn inside lips?

 

Hi, all - I had started the three horses on metformin last week, as we moved out to the summer pasture, and I wanted a little insurance on board in case anyone managed to shed their muzzles. Last time I used it on Maggie, I just put the ground-up tablets in her food, and she ate it no problem.  This time, the horses were reluctant to eat their bp and soy hulls with the metformin on the first dose, and totally refused to eat it on the second dose. I didn't have a syringe that would deal with the ground-up pills (as there were some chunkies in there), so I thought I would just make up a paste and slap it into their mouths (planning to re-grind the stuff when I got back to town and had power available). I made up one paste with yogurt, for the guy who doesn't care for applesauce, and an applesauce/metformin paste for the girls. It was messy, but I got most of it in.

That evening, when I went to repeat the exercise, I found that all three of them had angry red splotches and patches inside their lips, and on the sides and tops of their tongues. The areas looked like chemical burns. Agh!  I discontinued the metformin, needless to say, and now, three days later the insides of their mouths are back to normal.  I put some of the paste in my lower lip - it was bitter, but not painful. 

If anyone has any insight into this, I will be interested to hear (will be back in town in a few days)
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Percentage of Cushing's to get laminitis?

Maxine McArthur
 

This was true of my mare also. Her consistent symptom was dullness, depression, sadness, grouchiness. Blood test confirmed diagnosis. 
--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Percentage of Cushing's to get laminitis?

 

Regarding the malaise, my vet and I have correctly diagnosed two of my horses with Cushings just by noticing the unhappy look in their eyes.  Later confirmed with testing.  The sad thing is that they had probably been feeling lousy for years.  Looking back, the signs were there.

Gail Russell July 2009 Forestville CA.



Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone


Re: Cayuse's ACTH, insulin steadily increasing over 5 years - 13 yo IR mare

 

Hi, Cass - yes, this is worriesome. Check out Dr. Kellon's presentation on mares with high insulin that isn't controlled by diet, but also needs some ovarian hormonal issues addressed:  https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php  (second one down).
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Percentage of Cushing's to get laminitis?

 

Hi, Lauren - I don't have actual statistics for you (besides saying "Most of them will get laminitis"), but I can also tell you that along with laminitis comes a general feeling of malaise, poor immune function (some of these horses die from sinus infections, or rather from complications therefrom, such as not eating), and also they just waste away. The weight loss and muscle weakness can result in them slipping and falling in the winter, and being unable to get back up; or slipping and falling in mud etc. Using compounded pergolide is a very inexpensive way to give a Cushing's horse a good quality of life. I know I am preaching to the choir, but this is just a bit more information you can pass on to your friend. 
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Percentage of Cushing's to get laminitis?

Paula Hancock
 

Hi Lauren,
Maybe have your friend read about Cushings/PPID at the new and improved ECIR website:
https://www.ecirhorse.com/cushings-disease-ppid.php

It does mention that laminitis used to be the most common cause of death/euthanasia in PPID horses.  Now that we understand more, it doesn't have to be if the horse is managed.  Showing all the signs of Cushings suggests that his horse may be pretty advanced in the disease process and would benefit from appropriate care.

Good luck!
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

 

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx



Re: Help for Repeated Colics

Paula Hancock
 

Hi Jennifer,
What kind of colic is it? Has she presented in a similar way each time? When you wrote "spasm colic", is that the same as gas colic?  What helped her get through it?  One of my horses, Onyx, tends towards impaction colic if he doesn't drink enough.  It seems to be more likely in the change of the season as things start to cool down in the fall and then again in the spring on a cooler day after some warm weather.  If I notice that he seems headed that way, I increase his salt and that seems to take care of it.
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

 

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx



Re: Cayuse's ACTH, insulin steadily increasing over 5 years - 13 yo IR mare

Paula Hancock
 

On Wed, Jun 14, 2017 at 01:45 pm, Cass Bernstein wrote:
Should I continue with watchful waiting and retest in August-September or does more immediate action make better sense?

Hi Cass,
I would be alarmed and taking action.  Her insulin is high, her BCS is high and her ACTH is high normal.  To clarify her PPID status, a number of us have used the TRH stim test.  It is best to get that done soon as it is most reliable before or after the seasonal rise.  It would be a good time to review the DDTE protocol to see what improvements can be made.  She shouldn't be getting any grass.  If she is not PPID, what has changed that might be pushing her insulin levels up?
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

 

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx


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