Date   

Liquid Pergolide Dosage: ml to Mg

 

Hi there - my mini pony is on liquid pergolide.  How do I enter that on the database please? It appears to only accept 'mg'. Can I convert?
--

Sandra Weston

Joined 6/7/2016

Leeton, NSW, Australia

Case Histories:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Molly

  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sandra%20and%20Capri

Molly’s Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4424

Capri's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=4441

 

 

 


Re: Fasting prior to Bloodwork

redrockwood@...
 

Thank you very kindly Jaini!   this puts my mind at ease that the test wasn’t flubbed!   I have been treating him as an IR horse based on the calculator results.   

May I please ask what is the difference between “Uncompensated” and “Compensated” IR?
--
Heather Baskey (& Pip)

June 2017

Ontario, Canada

Case History Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Pip


Hay Analysis Results just came back

Bev
 

Hi! I just got my hay analysis back and would really love it if someone could have a look at the sugar/starch results. I've posted two pages in my Album. One for Bermuda Grass and the other for a Grass Mix.

I'm hoping to be able to feed this hay to Majestic without having to soak it.

Thank you!
--
- Bev and Majestic
May, 2017
Prescott, Arizona
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bev%20and%20Majesttic 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6597


Re: Hoof analysis for Eeyore 2nd notice

Kim Leitch
 

Lavinia,
Is there any chance that you will have Eeyore's mark ups complete by tomorrow?
He can barely walk, and I know the trim is the key. I want to help him.
--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC

Grits IR, Eeyore PPID, Dually ???

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually

Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314

Photo album Eeyore https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6586&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0




Re: New member with medication issues

Paula
 

Hi jaini,

Thank you for all your info seems like I've got some homework to do!

Thought I uploaded the case history, apperantly I didn't... But will have a look at it tonight and make sure all the info is there so it's all clear for all of you.

The vet is already coming in the next few days so I will also ask him to at least check his adinopectin, insuline and glucose. Never done this before to be honest since we never had reasons to assume he might have IR but knowing is better than guessing.

The hay I feed  is not from my own field I buy this from a supplier and they have different fields where they get their hay from, this makes testing more challenging. I will give him a call as well and maybe I can order a batch for the whole year so I'm sure it's all the same and I can have it tested myself. 

I'm aware that pasture grass is not the best food around for them, but I have to be honest with you. Astor retired 10 years ago after having a severe tendon injury. He's not able to work and all he can do is go into the field every day, that's what makes him happy and that's what he lives for. It would break my heart to keep him in the stable being very unhappy. 
Along with this he never had laminitus, cresty neck or anything else that would make me think twice. Don't get me wrong I'm aware laminitis can occure over night as I found out with my ( at that time not yet diagnosed) IR mare.

Back when he was first diagnosed we started with half a tablet and slowly increased the dose, I have all the data so once my case is uploaded you can see how we build him up at the time.

For now i will have a look all the links you just gave me and!

Thanks again!!
--
Paula & Astor (PPID)
July 2017, The Netherlands

Case file Astor: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Astor


Re: Lactation and a dull somewhat long coat

 

Hi, Rachelle - what a great job on the pictures and case history! Thank you so much for that.

To answer your immediate questions, you should be giving her 2,000 IU's vitamin E. The vitamin E is best absorbed when it is touching oil, so either use 400 IU capsules containing soy oil, or use Uckele's Liquid E or KER Elevate. Alternatively, one can use powdered E and mix with a snifter of oil (but that is a nuisance).  It is hard to tell how much the alfalfa is contributing to any ongoing foot pain; if she if fine and not at all sore, then you have no worries, but if she is a little off, it could be due to other factors.

One thing that leaps out at me is the size of her udder. Mares will lactate when they are IR only (one of mine did, and stopped the instant she was put on the appropriate diet); but PPID will have an even greater effect. I would be very suspicious of Maddie having PPID (Cushing's), given her age of 22 and the coat issues along with the lactation.  As you know, the list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Exercise and Trim:

Diagnosis is by blood tests, and Maddie should definitely get an ACTH done as soon as possible. Blood should be pulled from a non-fasting horse (or pony) in a quiet barn; blood spun, separated, and frozen or chilled asap, then sent to the lab at Cornell on ice. Ask for insulin, glucose, and leptin, and ACTH. The blood for the ACTH goes into purple-topped tubes; for the other analytes it goes into red-topped tubes.  

More information at these locations: 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/2%20DDT%20-%20%20The%20Diet%20Diagnosis%20and%20Trim%20Protocol/DDT%20Diagnosis.pdf

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/4%20Insulin%20Resistance/2%20Diagnosing%20Insulin%20Resistance%202012.pdf

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Blood%20Testing%20for%20IR%20and%20PPID

 

Diet: You are nearly there; once your hay is tested, you will be a bit farther along. The ideal thing for now is the Temporary Emergency Diet, with the California Trace added; however, I don't know your water situation, so not sure if soaking is actually an option.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/2%20DDT%20-%20%20The%20Diet%20Diagnosis%20and%20Trim%20Protocol/DDT%20Diet.pdf

 

Exercise:  Good that she is getting out and moving around, in a non-pasture situation. You are past the 9 month- 1 year mark from her previous laminitis, so as long as she is comfy, riding will be fine. It certainly doesn't look like there are recent laminitis or insult rings on the feet.

Trim: I will let the hoof experts comment on the trim. To me, it looks pretty darn good, with maybe a little tweaking needed. There is a bit of forward-foot syndrome, and some stretched-forward sole, especially on the hind feet, which can contribute to thin soles.

The biggest concern right now, in my opinion, is her PPID status, so the sooner you can get an ACTH done, the better.  You are doing a great job of looking after her - she is a lucky gal.


Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Please look at Tara's newest blood work on updated case history

Deborah Ide
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon. I'll post the analysis of the hay she has been eating since last July and will continue to eat for another week or two. I'll also get some photos.
Do you think the Insulin level would drop with more exercise?
Deborah
Middle Tennessee
2012
https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara/Tara%20Cash%20History%20July%202017.doc


--
Deborah
November 2012, Middle Tennessee
Case History: https:/ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara


Re: Fasting prior to Bloodwork

 

Hi, Heather - the test wasn't "flubbed", just that you have to have a slightly different interpretation knowing that it was fasted.  It is not really known how fasting affects the ACTH (in some studies it was higher, some lower); but fasting definitely results in lower insulin and glucose. When I plug Pip's numbers into the IR calculator:  https://www.ecirhorse.org/ir-calculator-leptin.php  he shows as Uncompensated IR.  Therefore, you know you have to treat him as IR.  Yes, it would have been a better indicator of insulin if he had been eating his hay, but the bottom line is that you will be treating him as IR anyway.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Spring Grass Safety - A review

Nancy C
 

In case you missed it - a great article, a review of what's important and what is not, written by ECIR Groups Research Director Kathleen Gustafson and Dr Kellon, on the Equine Info Exchange

http://www.equineinfoexchange.com/index.php/health-education/556-spring-grass-safety-a-review


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: New member with medication issues

 

Hi, Paula, and welcome to the list!

Unfortunately, your case history did not upload - there is nothing in the folder: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Astor 

There are a couple of things that spring to mind: Did you get insulin, adinopectin and glucose along with the ACTH?  It could be that insulin resistance is confounding his symptoms. As you know, the list philosophy is Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Excercise.  You have an initial diagnosis of PPID, but there may be IR happening there as well.

Diet: If Astor is also IR, then goopy eyes and some other signs could be due to this. The diet consists of forage (hay, haylage) that is less than 10% ESC plus starch; salt, omega 3's (which you have addressed), and minerals balanced to the hay.  A crappy coat can be due to lack of copper, zinc, and other trace minerals. In the Netherlands, your hay might be okay for iodine (most hays are not), but you won't know without testing your hay.  Also, if Astor is IR, grazing fresh pasture is an issue; the sugars in pasture are often very high compared to hay/haylage, and can lead to low grade and frank laminitis. Autumn will be a danger time for him, as the ACTH levels rise naturally at this time.

This link will take you to UK sources for hay testing, mineral balancing and minerals:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9d%20Country%20Specific%20Information/UK%20Information  I don't, unfortunately, have similar information for The Netherlands, so if there is anyone else out there that can chime in on this, please do!

It is true that there is a tiny percentage of equines that react poorly to the Prascend (very small percentage, fortunately). Before we rule out using the Prascend completely, did you start his dose off at 0.25 mg daily, and slowly increase, or did he start right out at 1 mg, and then increase as time went on?  It is best to start small and increase the dose by 0.25 mg every 4 days, especially for sensitive horses. If you go here, and scroll down to Pergolide 101, there is a lot of good information about that:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/3%20Cushings%20Disease%20-%20PPID/Cushings%20Disease%20Treatments/Pergolide  

In addition, using an adaptogen such as APF or APF Pro has been shown to help with, and often eliminate, the pergolide blahs. You can get it in the UK from Forage Plus:  http://forageplus.co.uk/product/apf/   

It is a little hard to parse out the blahs and appetite issues without the whole case history, but the fact that he did well on 1.5 mg for a while, then got the blahs again, is suggestive not of the pergolide veil but of something else. There are quite a few horses on this list that lose their appetite and get the blahs if their ACTH is too high, and the Prascend not high enough.  However, the fact that he again improved when you took him off of the Prascend 4 months ago does look suspicious. 

Here is what I would do at the moment:  1) Make sure you get insulin and glucose along with the ACTH (adinopectin is nice, but not crucial)  2) Get your hay tested.  3) Upload your case history - if you need help, just let us know.  4) Look into minerals and mineral balancing. 5) Consider using APF.

Sorry, more questions than answers at the moment, after you did all that hard work on your case history (because it seems to be missing in action)

Ask any and all questions, and again, welcome!
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


New member with medication issues

Paula
 

Hi everybody,

First of all, Exuse the long post
I'm from Holland and looking for some advice/help regarding the medication.
 
I have a 30 year old pony, diagnosed with PPID 3 years ago. Started him on the meds ( prascend) right after the first blood test. Ever since his levels kept going up and due to this we also increaed his dose of meds. I always used to check his ACTH levels 2 times a year. Last year he was at the point where the vet advised me (after concating boehringer Ingelheim) to up his dose again by half a tablet so I was supposed to give him 3,5 tablets a day at that time. 
But here's the thing, unfortunately my boy doesn't respond well on the meds. He's stops eating, goes very lethargic (as if he's on another planet) and becomes very wobbly and out of balance. Besides allt his, in all these 3 years of medicating he never lost his winter woolies, his eyes are allways teary and he never became the happy cheeky boy he used to be.
Since quality of life is more important to me than quantity at this age, we decided to reduce his meds to see if we could get him feeling a bit better. Around the same time I started treating him with bio resonance therapy, started him on chaste berry and lowered his meds to 1,5 tablet instead of upping to 3,5.
For a while he was doing great and even got his levels down to normal. Until he stopped eating again and short after this the "veil" came back.
I decided to take him completely of meds which he has been now for almost 4 months.

Although he's doing quite alright I'm still not happy with how he's doing. At this point he is exactly as he was 3 years ago and the reason I checked him for PPID. 
He never had laminitus but since spring is coming in not too long I'm a bit afraid of what this might do to him and I'm convinced he can do better than he's doing now.
Since you all know how to manage your babies so well I'm hoping you can give me some advice and try to help me out... In my opinion I've tried everything past the last 3 years to get him good and healthy and I really don't know what to do next.
The vet will be here tomorrow or the day after to check his bloodwork again so I will know what his ACTH levels will be. 

Just some extra info: He lives out in daytime ( 7 am till 9 pm) and in at night.
-At night he has a haynet, not soaked, 2nd cut,
- he has 2 feeds a day, half a scoop fibre pellets, omega 3-6-9 oil, chateberry (am) vitamine E, Selenium, Lysine (pm)

I probably failed to mention some crucial information, if anything required please ask me anything!

All advice is welcome! Thanks in advance!
 
--
Paula & Astor (PPID)
July 2017, The Netherlands

Case file Astor: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Astor


Lactation and a dull somewhat long coat

Rachelle Muller
 

Hi there,

I posted a case history and made a photo album for my mare that had her first case of laminitis in June of 2016.  She is doing OK right now, but I have some lingering issues I would like to take care of.  I tried to give as much detail as possible in the comments section of the case history.  She still has an enlarged udder with lactation and has for probably 7 years.  Also, her coat is a bit long for a summer coat and has more of the texture of a winter coat (her 2016-2017 winter coat was crazy and about 3" long)   I’m giving her 19 lbs of orchard grass/alfalfa (75:25) daily and I’m sending it out for testing this week.  I’ve recently added 3 oz HorseTech NutraFlax to her diet and ProBios Probiotic and plan to add Vit E , but not sure how many IU’s I should give her.  She’s been receiving California Trace for 2 months now and has free access to iodized loose salt and a block. She's been getting minimal exercise up until now, but my major projects are done so I will be riding her more and got her out on the trail 2 x this last week.

Does anyone have other suggestions right off the bat?  I’m wondering how critical the alfalfa in her hay is.  Yesterday morning I started turning her out in a 200x65’ sagebrush area for about 1 hr around 7 am.  The forage is minimal, it’s more to stretch her legs a little and let her pick at a few things and she seems to be doing fine although I'll be keeping a close eye on it.

Thank you for any help!  This information on this site has already been immensely helpful to me!


Photo Album Link
Case History Link
--
Rachelle
Kamas, UT
Date Joined 6/28/2017


Re: Vitamin E: “Elevate W.S.” by KPP

redrockwood@...
 

Thanks very much everyone!   very much appreciate that it is a suitable Vitamin E product and that it can be given at meal times (consumed straight away, not stored).

With sincerest appreciation,

--
Heather Baskey (& Pip)

June 2017

Ontario, Canada

Case History Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Pip


Re: Enlarged blood vessels on inside hind legs

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Heat can make those veins enlarged but it's a little concerning when paired with the ventral edema issue she has had. Not an emergency but next time your vet is there might see if he/she thinks it's worthwhile doing a rectal exam to see if there are any enlarged structures that might be impeding venous flow.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: Vitamin E: “Elevate W.S.” by KPP

 

I've been using Elevate for years without a problem. Presently I'm giving it to a horse and two ponies, using a small dosing syringe. None of them seems to mind. You can trim the cost a bit if your supplier will do automatic delivery.

Hoping my automatic signature will work as this is the first time I've tried it...


--
Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
Logo's Case History: 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Martha%20and%20Logo/ ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Martha%20and%20Logo/ ) .
July 2012


Re: Please look at Tara's newest blood work on updated case history

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

TRH response is very normal. Insulin higher than it should be for glucose level and diet but well below laminitis risk level. You're doing a good job. Could you post both hay analyses and a body picture?
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: Feed: Allen & Page Fast Fibre

Lesley Fraser
 

Hi Abigail

Allen & Page are a big feed company, and although their mill is in Norfolk they have stockists all over the UK. If you have a look at their web page and type your county or postcode into the Stockist section (via a tab under the Products page), you should come up with a company in your area - I know they supply numerous companies down in Devon.

Their feed is good quality and as long as you stick to ones like Fast Fibre or Cool & Collected (0.65% over the 10% sugar/starch ceiling, but useful if your horse gets a bit fed up with Fast Fibre) you should be OK. They’re very helpful if you give them a call.

Hope this helps a bit.

Lesley and over-the-bridge Omar,
UK, 2012

--
Lesley, 11-2012

Norfolk, UK

Omar - Case History


Re: Vitamin E: “Elevate W.S.” by KPP

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Elevate does not have to be syringed. It can be mixed into feed as long as it is fed right away and not stored.

Another option is to mix your powder into a little oil before feeding it.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Please look at Tara's newest blood work on updated case history

Deborah Ide
 

I would appreciate opinions on Tara's newest blood work that I put on her updated case history yesterday. She had the Insulin, Glucose and Leptin checked as well as the ACTH TRH Response test with pre and post levels listed. The local vet said the ACTH response tests shows that she is not PPID. She has been losing weight and took longer than normal to shed out this spring (although she is fully shed out now) so we thought it a good idea to do the TRH Response test. I think the weight loss was due to her hay. Although the hay was balanced and she got 25 to 30 pounds a day (with appropriate balancer and Lysine added as part of mix)  I don't think it was too great and will be glad to start feeding (in a week or so when I get the new balance mix) some new hay that is higher protein. I posted the analysis of the new hay also. Thoughts on all of this from the experts?

I tried to add my automatic signature yesterday also. Not sure if it should show up here for me to see or not but just in case I'll add it again at the risk of having it show up twice. Better twice than not at all!
Deborah
Middle Tennessee
2012
https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara/Tara%20Cash%20History%20July%202017.doc


Re: Vitamin E: “Elevate W.S.” by KPP

Lorna Cane
 

Her boy is very polite to spit them out "lovingly".

I use the E caps from Costco.They're the best price I have been able to find.I've fed them to 9 horses over the years, and no one has spat them back at me.:-)
I mix them right in with their dampened soy hull pellets,or soaked BP, and no one has seemed to notice.
It's the best way to do it, from all points of view (in my opinion) ,if you can manage it.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

 

 

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