Date   

Re: Dually is gaining weight

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It's not unusual for horses to gain weight when their activity is restricted but gains this large in a very short time have to be fluid, not fat.  Dually may have fermentation issues with hays and the higher fiber in end of season pastures.  Movement is also very important to maintaining good gut motility and mixing.  I would try to add daily exercise, even if just walking or lunging, to her regimen and add a high enzyme activity digestive product like Uckele's Absorb All to her diet.  What are the DE, ADF and NDF of her hay?
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: Early Cushing's??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I was hoping to see at least those photos first.

There are many causes of foot pain besides endocrinopathic laminitis and in a QH with lameness dating back to a young age they need to be kept on the list, if not put at the top. The ACTH isn't impressive for his age and the time of year.  Insulin is in a grey zone as well. Before believing that glucose number it might be good to try to borrow a glucometer if you have any diabetic friends and retest it. Radiographs would also be extremely beneficial, especially if he really does have an excellent balanced trim.

The low ESC/starch diet won't hurt him but I would hold off on selenium in your area without a blood level. (Any hair loss from mane or tail?) Even when the evidence is weak it's still reasonable to do a trial of pergolide when the horse is lame but this history isn't pointing to that being likely to solve the problem.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: Early Cushing's??

Maggie
 

Hi Lauren,


Sorry you're feeling so frustrated.  I looked but didn't see a CH folder for you, so I made one.  Here's a link to it:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LM%20and%20Shineys%20Little%20Pistol 


Once you open that link, click on "upload file" and look in your computer files for the CH that you filled out, and open it.  Once you see it in the "upload file" box, click on "add".  


If you are still unsuccessful, email me or LeeAnne and one of us will get your CH uploaded for you.


Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response


Re: Dually is gaining weight

Tori Cullins
 

Oh my gosh he is adorable. Love that 3rd photo, he looks like quite the character. Sorry couldnt resist commenting on it... I'm watching your post for answers, I have a easy keeper Quarab with similar ginormous belly (not IR - or not symptomatic anyhow) that seems to come on with lack of 'work'.
--
Tori and Orion

April 2015, Eagle Point, Oregon

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Orion

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=808

 


Re: Early Cushing's??

LM
 

I don't get frustrated too easily and I want to pull my hair out! I gave up on the yahoo group years ago because I had so much trouble using it. Now I am trying so hard again for a different horse. Maggie kindly sent Case History form to me via e-mail. Apache doesn't work on MacBook Air 2013 updated. I finally finished filling out form. I have read all the guidelines many times over and cannot get case history uploaded in it's more complete form. Can someone please help me. Time is ticking away for this gelding due to many factors beyond horse health. We either get him improving or he is euthanized.

Dr. Kellon is it possible you can reply with my response while someone else helps me figure out how to get history properly uploaded?

Thanks all for your help and dedication!
--
LM
March 2013
Ohio/Colorado


Re: is my horse IR?

Carolyn beckstrom
 

Thank you!  I understand.  I think I am still in denial.  I appreciate your feedback very much!
--
Carolyn 
8/2017
Berlin MA
Rio Case History    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Carolyn%20and%20Rio
Rio Photo album    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Carolyn%20and%20Rio


Re: Beyond frustrated

Paula Hancock
 

Wow, I am just catching up on posts tonight about dosing pergolide and I have to say you all are incredibly dedicated horse owners and amazing problem solvers!  Lots of different ways to get it done, but persistence, creativity and networking are essential!
Well done all!
--
Paula with Cory (IR) and Onyx (IR/PPID)

 

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx

 


Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - request from Conference Host Leigh

Nancy C
 

Sally, or anyone else who may be interested.....

We would like to do a group email  to help busy vets who may have an interest but need a reminder about the conference.

Send me privately the email you'd like us to contact and we will do a quick  list of the benefits of the conference.

In our experience vets are the last ones who register.  They want to come but need a  little help in remembering.

My email is threecatfarm "at" cyberpine "dot" net.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Dually is gaining weight

Kim Leitch
 

Dually was really blimping up, so I took him off all pasture on Aug. 1. His top line looks great, no fat pads or cresty neck, just a ginormous belly. After a couple of weeks up on balanced weighed hay in slow feed nets, I thought he looked fatter. I weighed him with a tape measure using the calculator last week. I carefully took several measurements of his girth, so I was confident in my numbers. He weighed 1046. I weighed him yesterday, one week later, and he weighs 1128, UP 82 lbs! He is on 1 lb of TC Naturals TB cubes as a carrier for all supplements and 16 lbs. of tested, low ESC + starch, Orchard grass hay in 1 inch nets, spread out throughout the day.
His CH is UTD, thanks to LeeAnne, and I put three pictures of his gut in his photo album.
I had noticed this when he was on stall rest for different injuries in the past, he seems to get fatter when up. He is on 0.5 mg of Prascend, and his last ACTH was 15. I will try to up his exercise this week.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC

Grits IR, Eeyore PPID, Dually ???

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually

Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314

Photo album Eeyore https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6586&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Dually https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9046&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0





Re: is my horse IR?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, 10 is about right although 12 or 13 might be a more realistic upper estimate. **Important** This is for a fed horse with a diet that doesn't contain anything with ESC + starch greater than a mixed pasture.  With those conditions, a normal horse will not test positive. Although this may seem like a rather strict set of criteria the reality is that it misses some IR horses.

It has been estimated it takes an insulin of 80+ to precipitate an acute laminitis picture **but** IR horses have ongoing occult damage to their laminae even if not  classically laminitic.

The whole purpose here isn't to hang a diagnosis on the horse (or not) but to get some insight into their metabolism so that you can feed and manage them accordingly and prevent problems.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


moderated Re: Metabarol

Nancy C
 

Dr Kellon

She is referring to me and post 201102 in which I used links to previous discussion to say we do not recommend the product and why.  

Cassie - I think you may be missing something in your assessment of what goes on here. In regard to your studies, many have been discussed as evidenced in the above link I posted last August. So again I will disagree with your assessment of the facts on credibility.

Also other posts on Equithrive and their studies in the archives.

I've often thought that when these miracle claims of products based on one or even more studies arise, it almost takes a kind of reverse engineering with the view of the equine physiology in view.  Nobody does that better than Dr Kellon.

In any event, re-reading all the posts in this thread, all the experiences with metabarol, equithrive and the philosophy of this group.  You'll find not only discussions of the studies but also member reactions.

Cheerfully yours.
 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: is my horse IR?

Carolyn beckstrom
 

Thank you very much. he does come back as IR even with the improved values.  it seems that insulin needs to be below 10 to not be considered compensated IR and to not be considered a high insulin responder?  even with normal glucose and normal leptin.  it's almost like you could just say any horse with insulin over 10 is IR?

do we know at what insulin level a horse will founder?  it just seems that a horse in the "normal ranges" of leptin, glucose and insulin should not founder.  I guess I am asking if horses that are not insulin resistant and unlikely to founder always have their insulin levels below 10?  thank you so much, I have a lot to learn about this syndrome!


--
Carolyn 
8/2017
Berlin MA
Rio Case History    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Carolyn%20and%20Rio
Rio Photo album    https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Carolyn%20and%20Rio


moderated Re: Metabarol

Cassie
 

I didn't see your post.  I was referring to the manner it was presented in a different post.

There is this equine thesis paper, which is not in favor of resveratrol for glucose/insulin control: https://search.proquest.com/openview/ba1501fab105ea17f7a057e8039d1617/1?pq-origsite=gscholar&cbl=18750&diss=y

I was really looking for things for inflammation control (any IR benefit is just a bonus at this point), since that is such an issue with Ellie (inflammation control suggested here, but needs more research: Effects of polyphenols including curcuminoids, resveratrol, quercetin, pterostilbene, and hydroxypterostilbene on lymphocyte pro-inflammatory cytokine production of senior horses in vitro http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0165242716300447)

There is also this, which is based on Equithrive (same producer of Metabarol): http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0737080615001148

This is aged, but still interesting: http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/jf071741n

I will keep an eye out for any more (positive, null, or negative) articles related to resveratrol and IR.  I have not found any documented detrimental effects yet in horses.  I did a search on "resveratrol horse equine" in Google Scholar in case anyone else is interested in poking around. 

I haven't had a chance yet to read the citations from Equithrive's website, but for convenience, they are here:

RESEARCH FROM PEER-REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC LITERATURE

There have been numerous peer-reviewed scientific studies published that demonstrate the metabolic effects of resveratrol administration. For a summary of this research, including literature citations, see below.

Resveratrol was the first compound identified to activate Sirtuin 1 (SIRT1)1, an enzyme that activates and deactivates select genes to improve metabolic function and enhance muscle performance. SIRT1 also is induced by exercise and caloric restriction. 2-5

Thus, resveratrol administration may offer some of the same health benefits of exercise and caloric restriction through its similar effects on SIRT1.

1  Expert Opinion on Therapeutic Patents. 2012 Apr;22(4):355-67.  A patent review of sirtuin activators: an update. Villalba et al.

2  Nature. 2006 Nov 16; 444 (7117):337-42. Resveratrol improves health and survival of mice on a high-calorie diet. Baur et al.

3  PLoS One. 2008 Jun 4;3 (6):2264. A low dose of dietary resveratrol partially mimics caloric restriction and retards aging parameters in mice. Barger et al.

4  Metabolism. 2008 Jul;57 (7):986-98. Endurance exercise increases the SIRT1 and peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma coactivator1alpha protein expressions in rat skeletal muscle. Suwa et al.

5  BMC Systems Biology. 2009 Mar 10;3:31. Small molecule activators of SIRT1 replicate signaling pathways triggered by calorie restriction in vivo. Smith et al.

6  Biomedical Pharmacotherapy. 2008 Nov;62(9):598-605. Resveratrol, a natural phytoalexin, normalizes hyperglycemia in streptozotocin-nicotinamide-induced experimental diabetic rats. Palsamy and Subramanian.

7 Chemico-Biological Interactions. 2009 May 15;179(2-3):356-62. Modulatory effects of resveratrol on attenuating the key enzymes activities of carbohydrate metabolism in streptozotocin-nicotinamide-induced diabetic rats. Palsamy and Subramanian.

8  Cell. 2006 Dec 15;127(6):1109-22. Resveratrol improves mitochondrial function and protects against metabolic disease by activating SIRT1 and PGC-1alpha. Lagouge et al.

9  Cell Metabolism. 2012 May 2;15(5):675-90. SIRT1 is required for AMPK activation and the beneficial effects of resveratrol on mitochondrial function. Price et al.

10  Journal of Applied Physiology. 2007 Sep;103 (3):1093-8. Role of myokines in exercise and metabolism. Pedersen et al.

11  American Journal of Physiology - Endocrinology and Metabolism. 2011 Nov;301(5):E853-63. Resveratrol ameliorates metabolic disorders and muscle wasting in streptozotocin-induced diabetic rats. Chen et al.

12  Federation of American Societies for Experimental Biology Journal. 2011 Oct;25(10):3646-60. Resveratrol prevents the wasting disorders of mechanical unloading by acting as a physical exercise mimetic in the rat. Momken et al. 

 



--
Cassie

March 2017

Washington

Ellie Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cassie%20and%20Ellie


Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - request from Conference Host Leigh

Nancy C
 

That is correct Sally.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Charleys hand walk

Cody jones
 

I increased yesterday from about 150 yards to about 250 or so yards and he was fine so we did it again today no problems he didn't even have his muzzle on just a halter & he only tried to sneak a bite of grass 2 or 3 times. tomorrow we will walk with no boots and then turn out with muzzle a couple of hours because he can't drink with the muzzle taped up like it is. 
--
Matthew and Charley
St. Augustine, FL
July 2017


moderated Re: Metabarol

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I'm the one that posted the example of a human study, emphasis on example. They're all negative. Varying dosages.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - request from Conference Host Leigh

Sally Stults <jsstults@...>
 

Hi Nancy and Leigh...

It was not a request from me that has turned up missing.

May I please ask if the Posters that you are mailing out are equivalent to the 8.5x11 flyers that I received from you and mailed out to the vets in my area?

Thanks so much,
Sally Stults
Big Park, AZ

 


-----Original Message-----
From: Nancy C <threecatfarm@...>
To: main <main@ECIR.groups.io>
Sent: Fri, Aug 25, 2017 11:15 am
Subject: [ECIR] 2017 NO Laminitis! Conference - request from Conference Host Leigh

Leigh received a request from someone either yesterday or the day before to send posters to a multivet clinic. 

She says:


"Problem is that where I usually put these requests, it is not there and I can't find it in spam or trash so I am appealing to the masses to see if she is reading this today and will contact me again. "

Leigh is going to be sending out her last huge group of poster mailings this coming weekend and next week.  All other requests need to get to her ASAP.  If you know of someone who really should attend, please send Leigh the name, address and your name in full so she can reference it.

Leigh's email is equinesrfun "at" yahoo "dot" com

Thanks for your help with this!!!!
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
 
Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ
Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



moderated Re: Metabarol

 

Yes, exactly! So glad you caught that. I remembered the ½ Prascend when I was at the barn. I just got home to make the correction.

In other words, DDT+E
--
Cass for Cayuse
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12
Cayuse Photo Album
Cayuse Case History


Re: need help with diet / mineral balancing

Lorna Cane
 

You can do that, yes.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002

 

 


Re: need help with diet / mineral balancing

- - <orders@...>
 

Thanks Lorna. So since I am in NRC, I gather I would contact Dr Kellon directly.
--
Tory and Miss Manners
Maryland
2017
Miss Manners' Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tory%20and%20Miss%20Manners  

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