Re: Need to locate Timothy Cubes in Michigan


Hi Five to Aurelio, he is a wonderful asset to this group!
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Re: Need to locate Timothy Cubes in Michigan


Just called Standish Milling and they have the ODTBC cubes in stock and a local to me feed store gets regular feed deliveries from them. Should be able to get a small order put on the twice a week truck. YES! 
- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016


White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album

Re: Trim photos are up in album of Micky trimmed 14 September 2017 l

Kath Chase

Not sure How to Lorna have just gone into album and started renaming photos  apologies for making it hard for yous guys. 
Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Re: Micky here is the attached email sent still waiting leptin test results can that change matters

Kath Chase

-- thanks Maggie I have been in  to photo album started renaming some of   the photos I hope what I have  done Is correct apologies again. At present Micky is stable bound unable to walk out of stable so makes  it very difficult trying to get good photos on a flat surface as such. All 4 pulses bounding  tonight and hobbling around the stable on soft shavings.   
Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Re: Need to locate Timothy Cubes in Michigan


Aurelio, thank you for that info! Yes, I really have been spending time on this. Triple Crown has a "dealer locator" on their web site. From all my calls to listed dealers it appears that if one store in a chain ever ordered a TC product the whole chain of stores will get listed by TC as "dealers". So called "dealers" will offer to order the cubes for you but this involves a minimum # of bags. This could be 5-20 bags as a minimum. I own one horse who may or may not decide to eat the cubes again. This is why I am asking if someone knows of a feed store that stocks this feed. 

The Stabul 1 feed is pretty much the same way. For TSC the minimum order is 20 bags if they do not keep it in stock. According to Randy at NuZu the TSC store has to get the info of how to order it thru Blue Seal as an intermediary of some sort. Not as easy of an order so not surprising that it is not stocked unless you go together as a group to place a big enough order. 

Thanks all for your suggestions. I'll keep pursuing finding the cubes. It is a feed that has "chew" to it versus the pellet feeds that turn to powder or mush. After feeding Mouse for 15 years I should be able to predict what he might eat. Hah! 
- Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016


White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album

Re: Hi! Seeking help...

Jane Fletcher

Sorry to butt in! If using for muscle pain how much would you use? Thank you!,


Sent from my iPad

Jane, South East Western Australia
Nov 2016
Garnet and Bill

Re: Oreo Case Update: somehwat urgent


Good morning,
Thank you all for your feedback.  I have a couple of clarifying questions in response to the comments.
1. First, thank you for the positive thoughts, support, and hand holding! (Lorna and Sandy and everyone else)
2. Regarding the local feed mills, I have heard of similar experiences since their primary customer is cattle and I do plan on avoiding those from my experience as well. (Thank you Melinda)
3. From Eleanor: California Trace plus: I will order. Palatability is a concern for me when switching foods, especially it seems like a lot of the low sugar and starch.  Does anyone have experience with palatability of this supplement? I hate to buy a bunch of supplements and then have them all rejected. I have a limited budget...still working on the lottery.
4. Paraphrasing from Eleanor re: trim: "get the wedges off?" I pulled the wedges myself about a week ago now and also started trimming him. I have experience trimming as I worked with a farrier to assist me in learning to trim barefoot.  I leave shoes and specialty trims to farriers usually, but I have managed the frequent trims for laminitic cases between farrier trims as needed.  Lavinia gave me an idea of how to get started on the trim. She told me she will get back to me with more details.  I need to take my pictures etc. per instructions now that I am aware of those details.  The link that follows are hoof pictures together in a PDF file to show his progress over the last week with the trims.  How often should I get x-rays during this stage to monitor if the trim is OK or not?
5. Pain Management paraphrasing from Eleanor: " STOP previcox":  I will find ALCar to help manage his pain.  He is not in previcox. I have him on Bute in the PM. I would like to take him off Bute.  Not sure it really is doing much anyway.
6. Metformin dose from Eleanor: "can go up to 30 mg/kg twice per day": He isn't responding to Metformin at 24 mg/kg twice per day. His insulin doubled since I put him on that...since the vet did not submit for ACTH, I do not know if that also increased and is really responsible for the increase in insulin. I am not increasing Metformin as I don't want to risk tipping the balance towards more harm than good. Should I keep him on this dose for now until I have his diet more stabilized? When do I know I can ditch the Metformin? I am reading some journal articles led by Franks, and it looks like he goes up to 50 mg/kg, but it seems the adverse effects of ulceration etc. begin to show up more.
7. Antech vs. Cornell (for me: FREE vs. $50) I have seen two of responses to NOT switch to Antech. My husband is a small animal vet and we can have equine ACTH and Insulin done for free from Antech.  We do not have a contract with Cornell's lab and their fees are higher from what we have seen for his customers. SO, we would like to stick with Antech since the cost is FREE and this episode is showing me how important it is to test these guys more frequently instead of relying only on symptoms.  I have three IR/PPID ponies that I manage including Oreo.  I have three other ponies that are young and healthy now, but I can see going down this path,  I own a small training facility and I am also DC for the local pony club and many of the kids use my awesome ponies.  SO--my testing expense could go up significantly if I stick with Cornell and start testing more. MY QUESTION is ANTECH DATA INCONSISTENT (and thus unreliable)  or CONSISTENTLY LOW (thus potentially reliable, just I need to bear in mind the range)? My background is a doctorate in cellular biology and chemical engineering (I lecture in engineering currently) so I am familiar with most biological analytical protocols and can certainly adjust my own ranges when looking at data depending on data source after comparing results from each lab to establish a baseline. We have good jobs, but none have brought us to the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow and my horse business is currently running in the red as it is less than a year old.

Thank you again for all your responses.  I have been looking at other trims and gleaning as much information as I is almost too much.  I understand how many feel overwhelmed and find it difficult to determine which strategy will work best for your own specific case, because they are all a little different.
Elgin Texas ( near Austin Texas)
joined: 7September2017

Re: Micky here is the attached email sent still waiting leptin test results can that change matters


Hi Kath,

Yes, you need to rename the photos with the date, etc as described here: 

Yes, delete the jpeg in the Name of the picture and name it according to those instructions above.

Your signature is for posting messages, not in the photo album.  Set it up here: and it will automatically attach to each of your posts.

Are you working from a phone?  Much more labor intensive than using a PC!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Re: Micky here is the attached email sent still waiting leptin test results can that change matters

Kath Chase

Thanks Maggie I appreciate your help so your meaning in photo album where you edit. Have been putting descriptions in most  of them when you click on photo it says edit and I have been putting descriptions of each foot  in there currently  yous guys can't see description until you click on photo. Making it difficult for you to work out which hoof? Etc. is that right? with signature where it says in edit and it says photo by Kath Chase did you mean I need to put signature there?  And also in my album all the photos are names JPEG so do I change that and put example LF date I'm sorry for making it hard for yous guys
Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Re: Micky here is the attached email sent still waiting leptin test results can that change matters


Hi Kath,

I know you're in crisis, so please don't think this is nit picking.  It would be so much easier for us to find your photos and case history if you put a link to them in your signature.  Here's a link to your CH folder and photos:,,,20,2,0,0 

So that you don't have to remember to include your signature each time, go here to the subscriptions tab and copy/paste this:

Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia 

July 2017,,,20,2,0,0 

Don't forget to scroll all the way down to the bottom and click on "Save".

The other thing that would be really helpful is if you could go o your photo album and rename the photos according to these instructions:  To rename the photos, click on each one and then click on "edit" underneath the photo and then click in the box under "Name" to type in it.  When you have your photos labelled according the instructions, you can see the progression without having to open each photo to see the date it was taken.  Does that make sense?

I think you've tried to attach a photo to this email?  Attachments are allowed in this group, so all your photos need to go into your album.

Hang in there Kath!

Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
EC moderator/Primary Response

Re: Trim photos are up in album of Micky trimmed 14 September 2017 l

Lorna Cane

Kath,can you add links to your signature?


Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002



Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly, Fri, 9/15/17 #cal-notice Calendar <noreply@...>

Message Posting Etiquette - Keeping ECIR User Friendly

Friday, 15 September 2017

Message Posting Etiquette

This is a high volume group that can be difficult to follow. Help make it easier for everyone by following the Message Posting Guidelines below:
1) Sign your posts. This is a very large group.  Whenever posting a message, identify yourself and your equine by using your full ECIR Signature with your first name, location, the date you joined and the links to your Case History folder and Photo Album. The volunteers need all this information to provide quality responses and suggestions for local support, vendors, vets, hoof care, etc. 
2) Be clear in your posts. If you need to quote a line this is most easily done using the web to reply (not from email). Once you have the message you want to reply to on your screen, copy the text you want quoted, then paste it into the reply message composer.  Highlight the text you are quoting and then click on the quotation marks in the toolbar.  
3) Be considerate of the Support Team. They volunteer to help members in their spare time. Many have full time jobs. Unless you are in an emergency read the Start Here Files and check the archives to see if your question has been answered before.  Many new member's questions are answered there.
4) Discussion should always take place on the forums so all members can learn from the conversation and the support team can help clear up confusion.  
5)  Try not to hijack threads.  Start a New Message or change the subject line to discuss issues not covered by the subject line.
6) Don't immediately re-post.  Give “missing” posts a few hours before reposting. For unanswered messages, be patient. A lack of response is not personal or a reflection on you in any way. With so many posts some do get missed. Unless in an emergency situation, wait roughly 48 hours before re-posting and edit the subject line with "2nd Try". 
7) Off-topic but horse-related discussions: ECIR Horsekeeping Forum provides a place to discuss issues involving non-PPID/IR horses, general horse keeping practices, other equine health issues, alternative therapies and any equine related philosophical debates.
8) All discussion about horses with PPID and IR - including their hooves, boots etc - takes place in the ECIR Forum. Hoof related discussion for horses that do not have PPID/IR takes place in the ECIR Hoof Forum
 Thank you for your cooperation.
- Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the ECIR Group

New Member - possible laminitic mare

Cheryl V.

Hello everyone!  Forgive my ignorance here but after spending the last week reading all sorts of info on how best to help out my old mare I'm a bit overwhelmed!
Not sure what info I should post here since I haven't been able to get any testing done just yet due to lack of funds but my old mare is assumed to at least be IR and possibly PPID as well.  She's been thru one episode of laminitis last fall and is currently acting like she's having another episode and has been for the last two weeks.. I will be getting the necessary tests and x-rays done once we can afford it but her filly has been suffering from recurrent abscesses after healing from a severe puncture wound in the groin while being ridden by her trainer!  Needless to say our funds for vet care have been completely used up!  Is there anything I can do to help my mare right now that won't cost much?  Once I get her thru this episode of sore feet and our money has built back up I'll be testing her.  I have read thru the website about diet and I'll be attempting to get that figured out as best I can but the old girl is currently out with my two younger horses and I don't have a barn or stalls, just a shelter they use.  I will be separating the old girl asap but need to clear out the area first so she won't have access to any grass.  She's currently eating Timothy hay and she gets 1 pound of Enrich Plus in the evenings.  There's a salt block and of course fresh water all the time.

Re: Hi! Seeking help...


I started using ALCAR with him because I believed he had some form of PSSM initially (he ties up in response to vaccinations and regularly displays extreme stiffness in his hind end from stress - unfortunately he is very very easily stressed). 
It turned out that he does not have PSSM1, or any other currently discovered PSSM variant (he's part of a genetic study focused on locating the genes associated with various muscle myopathies).
Currently, by the people running the study, he is thought to have a variant of RER that has yet to be named. 

We have not elected to do a muscle biopsy since 1. He is already so compromised that I don't feel right causing more compromise, however short-term it might be and 2. Finances are an issue for me and the price I was quoted for a biopsy are very out of reach.

At the same time, his symptoms, that I attributed to muscle disease could easily be due to IR.
I'm not sure of all the IR symptoms, but his biggest issues that led me to muscle disease are extreme unpredictability throughout the entire time I've known him [he can go from calmly walking to bolting in a blind panic in the blink of an eye], "over excitement" - something will "trigger" him and he'll start running until I show up and stop him [others can stop him eventually, but he stops the second he sees me usually], he has a stifle that used to "slip" prior to adding ALCAR - xrays showed no reason for the slippage and it's a common muscle myopathy symptom, he was incredibly stiff and balky undersaddle, and so forth. He has also been very chronically short-strided behind, maybe as compensation for front end pain?
I have completely given up on riding him due to his unpredictability. No matter how much I rode him, he never got "broke" and he was never truly ok with a rider. He was constantly doing 180* spins in response to a perceived boogieman, and I sensed that my safety was becoming an issue since I never saw, or felt, the spins coming. He never dumped me, but I came close a few times.

The biggest thing, for me, is that he CLEARLY is as confused by his body as any human is. There's something in his eyes, something where he's just trying to deal with a "monster" inside that he doesn't understand. There's not a drop of malice or meanness in his entire body.
I have quite a few years of horse experience and I've never met a horse hat has inflicted so many injuries on humans without intending a single one.

Anywayyy, maybe that's a typical story here!
All that is what led me to a muscle myopathy. A muscle myopathy still hasn't been ruled out, of course, but IR is currently a more definite actor in this story!

I started using Histidine with him [it's an amino acid that is primarily processed into the histamine/immune system] because I was experimenting with various amino acids to see if any helped. After his really positive reaction to ALCAR, I wondered if other amino acids would help, and histidine was one of the only ones that actually improved things.

The first day of it, both eyes swelled up HUGE and ran continuously for 24hrs or so, then they calmed down and his eyes have stayed less runny since then. They still run a lot more than a normal horse, but the Histidine seems to help them run less than they might otherwise. In addition, he, like I mentioned, "woke up" on the his first day of Histidine. He started showing interest in his world and being curious for the first time EVER. He had always been rather detached and uninterested in things, prior to Histidine.

I started MSM with Fabio years ago [2014ish?] because he seemed stiff in his hindend. The MSM didn't eliminate the stiffness completely, but it did help to make him seem more comfortable. He's stayed on it because it has continued to help him feel better one it than he does off it :)

He's a very very picky eater when it comes to supplements and feed other than hay. Any particular reason for beet pulp shreds vs BP pellets? I noticed that the BP pellets I'm using have some kind of "desugared molasses" product in them. I believe I may be able to get BP pellets that don't contain anything other than BP, if the desugared molasses is the reason for shreds vs pellets - I'll soak them either way, of course. Are the shreds just easier to rinse?

Maybe he'll be less of a picky eater once his feed is making him feel awesome, fingers crossed!!

Hoping to be able to peruse the files more and understand everything better this weekend! :)

Fabio's case history:

Trim photos are up in album of Micky trimmed 14 September 2017 l

Kath Chase

Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Sweating Symptom in 18 year old gelding who also has odd abscess in area of two year old pigeon fever.


I would like clarification regarding sweating as a symptom.  I have an 18 year old Norwegian Fjord who is very, very overweight.  We tested him last winter, and his ACTH was fine, but his letpin and glucose were high.  I will get the exact numbers from the vet.  His hair coat might be a little long and rougher than it should be, both winter and summer, but I am not certain of that. His body condition score is probably between a 7 & 8 right now.  We have reduced his feed to 15 lbs a day (roughly 1.5 % his ideal weight, and he is slowly,, slowly developing some condition.. On California Trace, salt, magnesium, flax, vitamin E, and meadow grass hay that appears to be low enough calorie, but is not tested..  He is fat enough in the sheath that his pee sometimes comes out wrong because his penis is surrounding by so much fatty sheath.  Fat pads on shoulders, relatively soft crest, but enlarged.

He does not look unwell, or have a pained look in his eye that my other Cushingoid horses have had.   His coat might be just a bit heavy, but not certain.  Feet seem to be fine, but I have seen him ouchy last winter.

 His main suspicious symptom is that he sweats when other horses are not visibly sweating, and when his hair coat does not appear to be much, if any, heavier than his pasture mates.  This is at a standstill, in sun, and is on the sides of the shoulders, belly and flanks.  And between the front legs.  

His other symptom is a waxing and waiting "infected" area on his shoulder that is left over from treating pigeon fever.  I probably caused it by too aggressively flushing the area with betadine, but without perfect sterile  technique.  It recently swelled up and burst, but then wanted to close over.  Calcified behind  the area.  Not painful like you would expect an abscess to be.  When he lowers his head, the area sometimes pop like there are air bubbles trapped in the shoulder area.  We treated with SMZ's for 10 days, and it went right down but has since shown signs of minor resurgence. .  Vet took sample from inside and found Staph aureus, and agromyces (I think...not actinomyces).  It is funny.  You will notice a "puff" of blood on his shoulder every so often, with no sign of where it came from, but it must be from the abcess.  

We took  a blood sample  for an  SHI, which I gather finds pigeon fever abscesses.  The pigeon fever episode ended two years ago but the same popping was present in the shoulder at that time.  the shoulder is not overly enlarged from what I can see, but it seems to be calcified.

I have no doubt that this horse is IR, and we are working on getting that under control (finally), but I am wondering what the sweating might be a clue of?  Am suspicious of the longstanding infection as well.  Could he be sweating just because he is so fat, or is this potentially a clue about Cushings?  I am expecting the ACTH to come back elevated, but not drastically so given it is the time of the seasonal rise.  I used the sweating and the two year old abscess as motivation to get the ACTH test, but do not know if it could just be a sign of IR?

Will work on a case history tomorrow.  This horse is Odin.   Brother, whose case history is below, and needs updating, is doing spectacularly on 1mg Prascend at age 25.
Gail Russell 8/30/2008


Brother Case History

Re: prascend crushing vs dissolving

Helen Temps

I put the whole tablet in a little syringe, pull some sugar free peppermint water in (VERY mildly flavored) at whatever temperature comes out of the tap and shake.  Dissolves very rapidly, very easily.

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA

Re: Micky here is the attached email sent still waiting leptin test results can that change matters

Kath Chase

Hi Dr KelIon,  thank you for getting back to me. have a question still waiting on Leptin results could that change the equation in Mickys case. ACTH was 73 Jan 2016 36 June 2016 31 September 2016 with increases of pergolide from 1mg in January up to 4ml current. Current glucose is 5.98mmol current insulin is 5IU/ml Micky  has had his trim it was done yesterday laying down he still struggling this was off his food yesterday laying down all the time . It's about healing him and keeping him comfortable at present still waiting for Jiagulan to arrive. New boots have been ordered. He is still laying down often . Has dropped weight. Could you have a look at pictures please left front. He is constantly standing with that foot out the front weightbearing on on to the bad foot RF  that had the severe rotation and sinking back in October 2016. I have 1 cleantrax left. Should I be clean traxing again given the whiteline disease and the right foot being so vulnerable at present. I need to help his pain level. Can you see anything with this left front in photo would appreciate advice on what to do it is gut wrenching given he was bounding around in his cloud therapy boots in August. Breaks my heart. Left front after trim yesterday 

Kind Kath chase


Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Re: Micky

Kath Chase

I have replied to your email Dr Kellon   Sent reply to your email thank you again for all your help have latest pictures of trim, done yesterday have sent them to you will try to upload tonight on ECIR  new boots ordered Jiagulan has been ordered still waiting, the mineral balancing need help doing it. Sent you Mickys diet plan you suggested Kerr gold pellet, given his levels of minerals and vitamins are in RDI the iron level is still high so I'm guessing your saying Kerr gold pellet to up the minerals and vitamins that I'm guessing the iron is not letting them get through even though I have them balanced to RDI most are slightly over or very close but won't the gold Kerr pellet overload him now with way too many vitamins and minerals please refer to diet plan showing all vitamins minerals esc starch etc emailed to you last Tuesday 12 September 2016. I really appreciate everything that you and Lavinia have said to help Micky. 
Kath Chase & Micky Yinnar Vic Australia

Logan Large manure output

Irene Collins-Fotino

Hi all,

Logan has had difficulty passing manure yesterday and today. After several hours of trying yesteray,
he finally passed manure and I noticed that it was a larger pile than usual, but didn't give it a second
thought. His stall today - according to the barn manager - looked good with his usual amount of 

Same thing today - tried all day to poop and finally in the afternoon passed a huge amount of manure
and the fecal balls were huge. The vet happened to be in the barn at the time and said that amount of
manure and size of fecal matter was very unusual. He mentioned that there may be a disruption in the
myoelectric activity causing slow release of feces. 
Another observation is that yesterday he sounded like he was burping. Now I know that horses are not
able to burp, but seriously, he made the same sounds this summer prior to colic.
He passed another round of manure shortly before I left the barn again in the late afternoon.

I found this paper 

Applied Equine Gastrointestinal Physiology A.M. Merritt, DVM, MS College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Florida, USA 


Very interesting passage:

"This contractility is governed by the enteric nervous system (ENS) and local myoeletrical events. Myoelectrically, the slow wave
frequency rate, which determines the maximum frequency that the stomach can contract, is around 3/min in the horse, whereas
in dogs, pigs and ruminants it is closer to 6/min. An interesting feature of equine and ruminant gastroduodenal motility is that just
as a phase III myoelectrical pattern develops in the proximal duodenum, the gastric antrum stops moving for a few minutes.
During this time, gastric emptying ceases which, in the horse allows backflow of duodenal contents into the stomach. "

Right now Logan is eating about 10 quarts of hay stretcher, 4 quarts of beet pulp, ~2 flakes of chopped, wet hay,
supplements from HorseTech (which probably have to re-assessed), chia seeds, salt, chastetreeberry powder, probios, 
Assure Guard and UGard for ulcer management. I am going to add, slippery elm to aid digestive passage. 
He also started Stabul 1 about 10 days ago and is now eating his full complement - 4.5 lbs. Everything that he eats
is wet except the Stabul 1.
I will shortly pull some hay and send it to Equ-Analytical.

The barn owner is not happy with the Stabul 1 addition as she wanted all of the boarders to choose from a selection of
"grains" which she buys from a local feed store. She is convinced that Stabul 1 is what is causing his most recent

Our vet stated today that it is not what he is eating, or wet or dry, but that some there is possibly a disruption in his
able to contract and relax his digestive system. 

Does anyone have any thoughts about my pony's issue? He has such a rough summer; is there anything I can do
for him. 

Thanks in advance,

Irene & Logan NRC 2009
Hudson, NH

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