Date   

Raising pergolide.

LJ Friedman
 

When I raise pergolide for Jesse I never consider backing down on the dose. I wonder why many members mention that they raise the pergolide for the rise and then drop down when the rise is over. It's my understanding that as a horses age, the trend will be they might need a little bit more as time goes on and never less??
Lj friedman. San diego
Nov 2014


--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014  San Diego, CA

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117

. https://ecir.groups. io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ% 20and%20Jesse ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse )


Re: Hi! Seeking help...

Emily
 

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 01:02 pm, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
I would be questioning the "retained sole" right now as there is no concavity visible, the toes are too long, frogs are elongated and somewhat contracted. There is a big difference between "retained sole" and calloused sole. Calloused sole is something you want to keep in place.

When updating the case history, leave all the older material, just add dates for newest changes and please don't forget to change the date at the top of the document for "latest update".

--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team

Good to know!! Thank you! That is very helpful to know, I've treated it like it was retained sole as well! Yikes! I'll change my mindset asap!
What's your take on the abscessing under the sole?

I found out that the hay at the barn is, in fact, tested. I uploaded a photo of the test results to my photos area - hopefully that was the right thing to do! It looks like we may be able to stop soaking this particular hay? But I'm still so new too all of this, I could be way off!!

I haven't had a chance to update my case history to reflect Fabio's diet changes - I'm going to have to add a bunch of lines which I haven't quiteeee figured out how to do so I'll do that as soon as I get some time to mess around and figure things out!

In positive news, Fabio has been feeling SO good the last few days! He's completely off the majority of the anti-inflammatories he was on [down to half his original dose of ALCAR and 15,000mg of MSM/day! SUCH an improvement!!!] and feeling absolutely great. Today he felt so good, in fact, that he escaped from me and went cantering up a short gravel road to eat grass on the corner [NAUGHTY. haha]. He's rarely shown overt lameness on gravel, but his willingness to run on it seems like a good sign. haha
Overall, he's doing amazing. He's clearly feeling so much better, I love seeing him finally feeling ok. He's been down for so so long, I love seeing him finally happy.

I was also able to get his ACTH test scheduled for November 4th, to check for PPID/Cushings. Hopefully no PPID, but we'll deal with it if it needs to be dealt with. :/ It's a relief to have it scheduled though, better to know vs not knowing and worrying over it.
I'll be sure to read the files on the test to make sure we test him correctly. :)


Thanks!
 
--
Emily and Fabio
Gresham, OR USA
Sept 2017

case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emily%20and%20Fabio
photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9671


Re: horse professionals

LM
 

Hi Regina,

It is VERY frustrating! I second Melinda and DarkHorse's suggestions. I also know that area. It is very hard. People are not comfortable with going out of their box. I am a farrier and I have six years of education in health and medicine as well as decades of experience there and just last night s farrier back there told me I'm full of bull**** because I made the simple statement of a horse's hoof health can be compromised by being shoed on a chronic basis. Because I use herbs for a lot of different things and very careful restricted use of vaccinations a vet in Lisbon told me "I'm just like the witches they used to burn". They get very extreme! 

But stick to it. Treat them well and insist for the same respect back, if they can't do that then move on. We have finally reconnected with a vet, now that we are in CO, that is way more updated than other vets even out here. He can also tell you he has a lot to learn about this particular subject and he is open to hearing and trying my ideas when I can explain why. I compliment him a LOT on his willingness to keep an open mind and also that we can agree to disagree sometimes with no upset feelings, that's what makes us a good team. I let him know he is unique and I'm grateful for him. The little extra effort to let him know that has helped build an even better relationship. When I look for someone new farrier or vet, I ask them right from the get go, before they come, do they do any integrative medicine or hoof care, what is their experience with x,y,z, condition, what's their willingness to work with me as a team. etc. If I don't get the answers I'm looking for I keep dialing. I know there is not a lot of very educated AND open-minded people back there but I think eventually you will find someone that says "yeah I'd take that on and yeah I'd like to work as a team". You are not alone!
--
LM
March 2013
New Springfield, OH/Ft. Collins, CO

ShineysLittle Pistol
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LM%20and%20Shineys%20Little%20Pistol
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9106


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Heather,

Will have those for you in time for the farrier's visit on Monday.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: Is this a good time to test ATCH?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Peggy,

Yes, your thinking is spot-on regarding the testing. Check out the website for details:

https://www.ecirhorse.com/seasonal-rise.php

--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: Syringe Alkar and Pergolide together

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Yes, you can syringe them together.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: Oreo Case Update: somehwat urgent

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Marsha,

I've added mark-ups to Oreo's folder:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9600&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0

As we've discussed, the toes need to come back on all four feet as they are too long at ground level. Heels on the fronts needed to be lowered a bit as there was some mild bony column rotation, meaning the hoof-pastern axis (HPA) was broken forward. In the hinds, the HPA is broken back so the back half of the foot is already too low in relation to the front half so nothing off the heels. There is significant sinking in all four feet, with sole depth being barely adequate behind but thin on the fronts. Frogs are thin and elongated. I've used the same colors in all the mark-ups, both xrays and pix, for consistency.

Composite RF: I've put the lateral xray and the lateral photo together so that (hopefully) it helps to make things a bit clearer. Green line follows the angle of the new, better attached wall growth toward the ground. This parallels the pink line that shows the correct alignment of the bony column. Purple line is where the bony column is now - "broken forward" (bending in front) of the pink line, denoting bony column rotation. Where the pink line hits the ground is where the break over needs to be. Any hoof capsule beyond that point at ground level needs to be removed. Blue line is where the toe should end, blue X denotes what to remove.
The purple arrow indicates that the back half of the foot needs to be lowered to allow the bony column to relax backwards a bit so it is in proper alignment. Red line is where to lower the back half of the foot. Do not remove anything from the bottom of the foot forward of where the red line ends as the sole is already too thin - orange line.
The yellow lines denote the sinking: (1) is where the coronary band is, (2) is the extensor process. These lines should overlap, or at least be very close together. The distance between them denotes the amount of sinking. Need to back the toes up (maroon line on pictures) - not flatten the dorsal wall from top to bottom along the green line. Rasp or nip the toe perpendicular to the current wall angle from the top to get rid of all that excess length. The resulting hoof capsule won't appear "normal" but that's fine as this is rehab. You need to achieve function, not pretty. Once the toe is backed between 10 and 2, finish by bringing the rest of the adjacent front half of the foot inward on either side of the toe proportionally so you don't end up leaving squared off corners like the ones that are there now.

RF sole: Green line is about what the actual perimeter of the hoof should be. Blue hashes are what needs to be removed. The red chevron is an idea of where the true tip of the frog actually is - likely, it is even further back than that. Don't need to do anything about it until that excess tip becomes a loose little tail - then just nip it off.

Composite LF: Same as the RF.

RF sole: again, same as RF except I couldn't see the sole well enough to mark the true tip of the frog.

RH lateral xray: Similar to the fronts except that the HPA is broken back. This means the alignment of the bony column (purple) dips back away from the pink line. The purple arrow denotes that there needs to be more height in the back half of the foot to elevate it so as to lift the bony column into better alignment. The sole depth is adequate behind but has nothing to spare so again, nothing off the bottom of the hind feet at all.

LH lateral: Same as RH.

Boots and pads would be great for him, The Easycare Clouds or Soft Rides would provide the cushioning and support to help with comfort. In the fronts, need to shave the pads flat if using these two boot styles as they have a wedged pad that would raise the heels, which are already too high. If you get them for him for the hinds, using the wedged pads would be appropriate as the bony column would benefit from the lifting.

--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: horse professionals

 

You are certainly valid in your feelings.  I am a hoof rehabilitation specialist, professional in my field for about 10 years.  Have take almost all of Kellons classes more than once and have been testing local hays for 5 years and balancing diets with great success.  Yet I am the local weirdo with most of the local vets and farriers.  Someone I trained with in hoof rehab told me "If you enter this field you will have a bullseye target on you back. Be prepared and do not waiver from your gut and what you believe to be right."  

It has been a hard road, but I have traveled it knowing there are other out there who practice the same principals and though we are not in the mainstream we are making a difference.  
--
Debora Lay
LayzD Equine Services LLC
Corvallis Montana 

Joined 2/7/12CIR 0113/0615, NRC+1112,  NAT, MPG 0911 and others


2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

Hello,
Hate to be a pain but hoping someone can help me with this as farrier is coming on Monday for our second trim.  
I have uploaded my new X-rays from my last vet visit.  Unfortunately he only did the Lateral views to check on how the realignment trim was going.  The vet stated she is now at 2 degree rotation on left front and 3% on right front. He was very happy with the way the trims are going and suggested a trim this week which I had to hook on Sept 25 due to scheduling.  He also stated she is growing some good sole.  Unfortunately we forgot to mark up the X-rays as I had another horse there as well and both were being examined and I forgot to mention how to mark the foot for X-rays :(. He does however put them up on a block of wood.

I would love some feedback as well as some suggestions for the next trim. Hoof photos are uploaded as well from Sept 5 - her last trim was Aug 18th. 

She is also moving around really well with no lameness.  She is in a stall/run for most of the day but let her out on the arena twice a day to wander around. Sometimes she is full of beans but so far has been sound after all these little episodes.  Would she be ok to start handwalking to burn off some of this excess energy if she is sound?

--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=Name,,,20,1,20,0

--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 


Re: Syringe Alkar and Pergolide together

 


Re: horse professionals

 

And the successes are sometimes absolutely astonishing.  My 25 year old horse, that has almost certainly been feeling like crap for ten or twelve years, looks like an absolute rock star after 10 months on 1 mg of Prascend, plus the addition of California Trace, Flax,, salt, and magnesium.  He is bright eyed, no curly hair on his legs at all, smooth, sleek coat.  Everyone is aghast at how good he looks, and yet he had clear laminitis last fall and winter before we started treating him.  He shines like a copper penny, like he did when he was eight..
--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

Brother Case History


Re: horse professionals

hinecedark <hinecedark@...>
 

Hi Regina,
I feel your pain! Especially concerning farriers. Vets, on the other hand, have to learn so many species with so many different systems and so many different diseases and conditions that I am truly in awe of them. Yes, most are behind the curve concerning PPID and IR. But we . . . WE, thanks to this group, are on the cutting edge. Vet education hasn't caught up yet, but the good ones recognize success when they see it. Stick to your guns, you have a cheering section of thousands behind you. Your payoff will come as Smokey returns to health - enough payoff on its own. But, then, if you're lucky, you will find that your vet and farrier have learned some things from you! Which brings enough respect for your knowledge that they're happy to comply with your requests, as they want to see how long you can keep that horse healthy, doing things they are only just learning about!
No vet, no farrier, can do more for your horse than you can. Bribery (cookies) for the vet and farrier, or reminding them who pays the bills, whatever it takes. Keep your eye on the prize, do everything you're advised here, and Smokey will be your living proof that you weren't just "that crazy lady who wants us to do things different". 
What a sweet feeling while you're riding your happy horse! ;>)
Melinda
IN  2010
 


Is this a good time to test ATCH?

Peggy <dreammaker@...>
 

I've not been keeping up with everything on the posts. My mare was diagnosed a couple of years ago. She's on 2mg compounded perg right now. Having conversations with my vet who is suggesting that I wait until spring to test my mare. Am I right in thinking this IS a good time to test ACTH again to confirm or not that 2mg is enough to control her during the seasonal rise? I will need to get a case history on Jewel. Also want to post pics of her feet. Farrier comes Saturday morning. Will do my best to get before and after photos. She's not having any problems but I don't want her to have any either.
Thanks.
--
Peggy/Illinois
October 2004
PJ 29 yrs old laid to rest 8/31/17 Cushing's https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/PJ%20Case%20History.doc
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8821
Jewel 21 yrs old Cushing's


Forage Extender NSC Poulin response

 

Here is the response from Andrew at Poulin Grain in VT about their Forage Extender product. The chart is avail on their website. 

Leela
Heidie Cushings 1-16
List member 2010
NH


Good day, Leela!

 

Great to hear from you!

 

Attached is a chart with our starch and sugar levels for all our equine feeds.  Forage extender runs 9.8% starch and sugar – 3.2% sugar and 6.4% starch.  I am not sure where you got the 7%, can you share with me what brochure it came off of, please?

 

Thank you!

 

Andrew Beals


Re: horse professionals

 

oops,
Kim Lee with Malachi and Mateo 
NW PA
2010



On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 10:17 PM, Kim Lee Gillette <tkgillette@...> wrote:
Yes, Regina, I have.  It was the hardest and best thing I ever did was to fire the trimmer and learn to do it for myself and my horse.  It has taken a little while but well worth it.  Also the vet relationship is sadly going down hill too.  I called about the seasonal rise problem with my PPID/IR horse and they said they would get back to me and never did.  I made the decision to treat symptoms through the seasonal rise and already am seeing a great improvement in my horse.  We will go back to the regular dose after the rise and then try to get an appointment again of if need be find another vet.  But I was seriously upset when I called and told them how bad my horse was and they did not call me back.  I hope this feeling of being upset calms soon just in case I really need them.  It is so hard to find any other vets in our area.  I would hope they would have more concern for their patients (my horses).  Would love to have a Dr. Kellon student (vet) next door!

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM, regina bruno <rleb32@...> wrote:
i don't know if this is ok to bring up here, but has anyone else developed a true dread when it comes to farrier and vet appointments?  my farrier and vet's office and others are connected and i am getting the distinct impression that my approach of knowing what i want is only tolerated, even though i'm spending tons of money with these people.  I'm furious and frustrated.  i already have a job.  it's hard (though honestly interesting) to learn all of this stuff while paying people who should know it in the first place.  ugh....

Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .




Re: horse professionals

 

Yes, Regina, I have.  It was the hardest and best thing I ever did was to fire the trimmer and learn to do it for myself and my horse.  It has taken a little while but well worth it.  Also the vet relationship is sadly going down hill too.  I called about the seasonal rise problem with my PPID/IR horse and they said they would get back to me and never did.  I made the decision to treat symptoms through the seasonal rise and already am seeing a great improvement in my horse.  We will go back to the regular dose after the rise and then try to get an appointment again of if need be find another vet.  But I was seriously upset when I called and told them how bad my horse was and they did not call me back.  I hope this feeling of being upset calms soon just in case I really need them.  It is so hard to find any other vets in our area.  I would hope they would have more concern for their patients (my horses).  Would love to have a Dr. Kellon student (vet) next door!

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 8:15 PM, regina bruno <rleb32@...> wrote:
i don't know if this is ok to bring up here, but has anyone else developed a true dread when it comes to farrier and vet appointments?  my farrier and vet's office and others are connected and i am getting the distinct impression that my approach of knowing what i want is only tolerated, even though i'm spending tons of money with these people.  I'm furious and frustrated.  i already have a job.  it's hard (though honestly interesting) to learn all of this stuff while paying people who should know it in the first place.  ugh....

Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .



Starting pergolide before testing ACTH?

Cheryl V.
 

Hello all,
I asked my vet about starting my mare on pergolide right away and he brought up a good point.  That being if she's well controlled on the dosage given and then we test for ACTH won't that come back as a false negative? 

Another thing I asked him was if he'd be willing to write a script for compounded pergolide and he said that he won't do it... short of using a different vet what are my options?

CH was updated with a little info today, just added her weight from weight tape and added the link to her photo album which now has two photos in it.  One of her from May of this year where I thought she looked to be at a good weight and one from last month where she's showing the cresty neck and potbelly typical.  Her top line is also worse now than it was before.   Oh and you can see her eye tearing too.  Only change between two pics is access to pasture. 
--

Cheryl and Sahara
Lenhartsville, PA, USA
Sept 2017
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9672


Re: Selenium 2nd request

Kim Leitch
 

i apologize for not being clear in my questions about Selenium.
I want to know the following:
1. What is the purpose of selenium in the IR horses diet?
2. How much selenium does an IR horse need?
3. Since I am feeding three different horses different amounts of the same hay, they will each be getting differing amounts of selenium, because they will be getting different amounts of the minerals. The minerals are balanced to the hay, but it seems that selenium is given in a fixed amount. Do the horses getting less minerals need added selenium?
4. Why is Grits loosing mane and tail hair? If not selenium, what else could be causing this?
--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC

Grits IR, Eeyore PPID, Dually ???

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually

Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314

Photo album Eeyore https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6586&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Dually https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9046&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0





Re: Prunes as Delivery Device

celestinefarm
 

The website for Champion Treats lists the analysis for the treats and states that the sugar content is 11.7% and the starch is 15.1% DM.  The website also states that the treats contain 1 Gm of starch..  In basing safety of feed, treats, etc. we look at percentage of S/S , not how many grams per feeding or treat.  So 27% S/S. 

Conversely , Equipocket treats have a total S/S of 6%.  https://beetebites.com/equipockets/

100 grams of prunes has 5.1% starch and 61 grams of total sugars, including fructose.  100 grams of prunes = 12 prunes.  Most members are not using 12 prunes a day.  ! prune has somewhere around 3.5 grams of carbohydrates.

Beverly, I use a gooey, molasses based treat(Nickerdoodles) for Tipperary because he ended up loathing everything else because they didn't hide his Prascend well enough. I am going to try Equipockets for my persnickety stud , but members need to understand that Nickerdoodles,  and other treats are not healthy treats, albeit they might be the last resort for med administration. To your point, it's a very small "dose" of S/S overall in the diet, but as Lavinia pointed out, could add up quickly if used throughout the day as rewards. And there are some extremely sensitive IR horses who might find them problematic in the long run.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Ontario-Dehy Timothy Cubes/Triple Crown Timothy Balance

Alicia Harlov
 

I always assumed he was IR because he is an easy keeper, loses weight in winter and gains weight in summer....
--
- Alicia 

September 2017, Ipswich, Massachusetts

Vinnie's Case History
Vinnie's Pictures

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