Date   

Re: Adaptogen and Pergolide dosage

Jane Fletcher
 

I can't get compounded much cheaper than tablets either. Doing some research my problem seems to be with my vets pricing! Frustrating but so isolated no other choice. Ahhh, don't you love having the reputation of being picky! I would replace it with the word informed!! Best wishes!!

Sent from my iPhone

--
Jane, South East Western Australia
Nov 2016
Garnet and Bill


Re: Request Trim Evaluation

Helen Temps
 

Lavinia,  Can you please clarify for me what to do when heels are too low?  I have been reading your eval's plus Ramey's site and am still confused.  "Don't remove anything from the back of the foot"  "wall should be 1/16th of an inch above the sole".     If you don't remove anything, at least in my case, the wall is now just growing longer beyond the sole.  Do I leave that alone or rasp off?
--

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Chloe.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929


Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

regina bruno
 

On Tue, Oct 10, 2017 at 01:22 pm, LeeAnne Bloye wrote:Helen, did you read the document in the files:
Getting Higher Pergolide Dosages.pdf 
--

- ​LeeAnne

ECIR Archivist, Newmarket, Ontario March 2004

Email Me - if link fails use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com

Is your equine in the Pergolide Dosage Database? View the Pergolide Statistics

  Dawn's 10 Year Case History
     Taken For Granite Art

Quote of the moment: The human spirit must prevail over technology. - Albert Einstein


 
 
I have a question:  do vets ever use prescription pads or is it always this thing where someone calls a pharmacy?
 
--
Regina and Smokey
June 26, 2017
Laurelville,  Ohio

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Regina%20and%20Smokey  .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8316  .


Re: Hoof information

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks for passing that one on, Karen.

Another fabulous resource is Paige Poss:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com/anatomy-postcards.html

Aslso check out all the other info on her site.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Can "No Laminitis" happen with a PPID and IR horse?

Amy
 

Vet came put today to run bloodwork again.  We were talking about other horses that have had laminitis,  have foundered and the correlation with PPID and cushings.  I feel so blessed that I haven't had to deal with laminitis with my horses.  1 PPID/IR 1 isnt.  

I guess I was just wondering if there are horses out there that have had 1 or both of these diagnosis and have never had laminitis?   With correct diet, trim and excerise is it possible to avoid laminitis?  We were diagnosed last year but I'm sure my horse had early onset for a while.  I know there is no guarantee but I was just wondering.  

I read on this site daily (to keep learning so hopefully I'll be prepared if it happens to my horse and to learn as much as I can) and I feel awful for the horses and owners that have to deal with laminitis especially reoccurring laminitis....even when the owner is doing everything right for their horses.

Prayers for everyone on this site that they can get/ keep their horses happy and healthy.   I pray every day for mine.
--
- Amy 10-2016

Mooresville, Indiana 

Stormy, Case History, Photo Album

 


Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

Helen Temps
 

LeeAnne,   How do I get to the messages in the links from the PDF??  If I click on the link I get "This site can't be reached"; If I go to the Main Group page>Search> Message> enter # I get info that has nothing to do with this topic; If I go to CH group and search, I get "A new file has been uploaded" !!  
--

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Chloe.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929


Hoof information

Karen Warne
 

I have been reading Lavinia’s recommendations to all of us for months now, and am trying to absorb everything... In reading Pete Ramey’s FB Group, a book was mentioned that sounded great, and had pictures which I thought could help me get a better grip on the anatomy, etc. of my horses feet.  It is called The Essential Hoof Book.  By Susan Kauffmann and Christina Cline.  I ordered it from Amazon, and just got it today.  Wow!  It looks fabulous.  I know many of us are in the same boat, so I thought I would share this resource you might enjoy.


--

Karen and Luke 

May 1 2017

Northern California

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Luke

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=5921


Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

Nancy C
 

Cookies help too.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

Helen Temps
 

Nancy, Excellent idea about the waiver!  Thank you also for putting all this in one post, much easier to digest this way.
--

Helen Temps and Chloe  June 2017
Placerville, CA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Chloe.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6929


Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

LeeAnne Bloye <ecir.archives@...>
 

Helen, did you read the document in the files:
Getting Higher Pergolide Dosages.pdf 
--

- ​LeeAnne

ECIR Archivist, Newmarket, Ontario March 2004

Email Me - if link fails use ECIR.Archives at gmail dot com

Is your equine in the Pergolide Dosage Database? View the Pergolide Statistics

  Dawn's 10 Year Case History
     Taken For Granite Art

Quote of the moment: The human spirit must prevail over technology. - Albert Einstein
 


Re: Adaptogen and Pergolide dosage

Nancy C
 

Hi Sue

Personally I did not use the angled Soft-Ride pads.  They ned to be used only if they help the horse after a trim in which heel height has been removed. Lately we have not seen a lot of that here, but it can be common that heels get too high.

The wedge pad allows the horse to break into new soft tissue placement.  Often the wedge pads are used for too long, just making the problem worse by jacking the horse up for too long. 

SO.....if she does not need them - if she is not walking better, obviously more happy in wedge pads -  I would use flat pads. I just bought interlocking fatigue mats (Lowe's Home Depot, etc.) and cut them up to fit the boot.  They would hold up for  several days to a week before I needed to replace them.

IME I found six weeks to be too long, especially when recovering from laminitis. I  will be interested to hear your follow up.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org



Re: Testing for PPID?

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Emily
Try this page: https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php
It has links to other information as well. 
Regarding 1) If the vet processes the blood correctly on Saturday and freezes it immediately (see info in link above), there is no reason it can't be send on Monday. But you don't want it sitting in the refrigerator unprocessed and unfrozen from Saturday until Monday. 

2) The mods will correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that delay in transit (through IDEXX to Cornell or other labs) may compromise the sample and therefore lead to a falsely low = inaccurate result. 

3) Info in link above. 
--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Adaptogen and Pergolide dosage

Sue Hansen
 

Yes, she is my horse and old friend and everyone gets paid who works on her, even when I'm picky.  The day after the shoes were put on, she was much more bright-eyed and happy to see me. 

My vet took radiographs the same morning she was shod.  She advised me then that she thought the best thing for Dawn was to get her angles in line with a trim and then shoe her.  I had had Dawn in Soft-Ride boots and was considering buying the inserts for laminic horses, but my vet stilled favored shoeing.  

The bottom of Dawn's foot is covered and a putty-like substance was squeezed between the bottom of her hoof and the cover to keep pressure on the frog and to ease pain.  It all sounded good at the time and Dawn appears to be ok with the shoes.  If I leave them on her, I probably should have the farrier out sooner than 6 weeks.  If I had it to do again, I'd stay with the Soft-Ride boots.  Would you recommend the angled gel pads?

I will check the list of places to get Pergolide compounded to see if any are more reasonable.
Thank you for your help.  

--
Sue H.
June 2017. Markle, IN USA
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Dawn  .


Testing for PPID?

Emily
 

Hi all!

We will be testing my gelding's ACTH on November 4th (so still a ways out but I'm trying to plan ahead) and I've heard a lot about how the ACTH test needs to be done carefully, but I haven't seen a file or link that answers all my questions.

1. We will be testing on a Saturday morning. Will that lead to negative results if the test isn't processed until the following Monday? Should I reschedule the test for a weekday?

2. I know my vet prefers to use IDEXX and, when I mentioned sending Fabio's test to Cornell, responded that she's sure IDEXX would send the test on to Cornell if necessary. Why does this board recommend Cornell, specifically? Can IDEXX do the same thing? I want to have a thorough, intellectual, response for her when we discuss it :)

3. I know there is specific handling needed to ensure an accurate test, can someone describe that handling or add a link to a page where the handling is described?
Since my gelding is only 14 I anticipate him to have low numbers, despite showing many symptoms of PPID so I want to make sure I communicate effectively with my vet and get the most accurate results possible! If he has the beginnings of PPID I sure want to catch it before it gets worse!

That's all for now, thank you!

--
Emily and Fabio
Gresham, OR USA
Sept 2017

case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emily%20and%20Fabio
photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9671


Re: Gastrogard and Prascend at same time

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Based on the behavior of both drugs, best guesstimate would be to give pergolide 30 to 60 minutes before the omeprazole or at least 14 hours after it.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


Re: 2nd request for comment - - pergolide side effects and udder still full

 

Oops, sorry, didn't realize that Eleanor was balancing the hay.  
I think I would get the APF on board, and tweak the dose up again. You have a good way of determining whether it's working, by that handy udder.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: *Evaluation of hooves, please--3rd try

 

Hi, Laura - Desea is certainly a beautiful gal!   I totally agree with all that Dr. Kellon and Lavinia have said.  At this time, the very best bang for your buck is to continue with the dry lotting, and do the following:

1) Start feeding what I will outline at the bottom of this post (basically, the Temporary Emergency Diet with an acceptable ration balancer). Stop feeding everything else on the case history. Stop any alflalfa. The protein in your hay is fine.

2) Get a hay analysis that will actually tell you something. Send your hay to EquiAnalytical, ask for Trainer # 603.  There are instructions on the website as to how to sample your hay.  http://equi-analytical.com/  Aside from ESC and Starch, it is important to know the trace minerals such as iron, manganese, copper and zinc.  If your hay is high in manganese, the Mag Force will be counter-productive (not to mention the fact that it is made for cattle, so there is no guarantee that it may or may not be contaminated with monensin at some point). 

3) Get the blood work done for PPID and IR now, before things get much worse. Ask for ACTH, insulin, glucose and leptin. If De is PPID, she needs to be on medication. If she is PPID, no amount of extra protein will build muscle.

Here is the diet: (copy and print this out)
1) Soaked hay (until you get a hay result that shows you can stop soaking)
2) Use the rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp to get other supplements in
3) 1 tablespoon iodized salt
4)  3/4 cup ground, stabilized flax OR 2.5 tablespoons of flax oil, not both (too much fat)
5) 2,000 IU vitamin E, either as a micronized liquid, or as 400 IU capsules containing soy oil (cheapest option) I didn't see any vitamin E in the case history (great job on the case history, BTW!)
6) A ration balancer to provide copper and zinc, selenium and iodine, but no manganese (for now). Manganese can also interfere with copper/zinc uptake, and De looks to me (from coat colour) as though she has a functional copper deficiency (which will also wreak havoc with hoof health, and result in chronic thrush etc). Use either California Trace Plus http://www.californiatrace.com/catraceplus.html  or Uckele U-Balance Foundation  https://uckele.com/u-balance-foundation.html  
7)  If you use the California Trace Plus, then add 1/2 a tsp of Magnesium Oxide (cheap, and available from your feed store)

What you have been doing isn't working, as she is still sore, and not getting adequate nutrition in the form of trace minerals. It is time to change. You can do this.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: 2nd request for comment - - pergolide side effects and udder still full

Rachelle Muller
 

Thanks so much, Jaini!  I was thinking the exact same thing about "her ACTH rise is out-stripping the pergolide dose".  Very well said!  I talked to my vet yesterday and he thought we should let her settle on her current dose for at least another 30 days before making changes, but he also agreed that she might need a slight increase in her dose.  Does that sound reasonable?  Given her sensitivity to the pergolide I tend to think waiting a little longer isn't a horrible idea.  I haven't been using the APF long term, but will definitely use it if her dose changes.

I had Eleanor balance the hay and she is the one who recommend the level of magnesium and phosphorous that I'm adding.  Without looking at the bag of minerals I'm not sure how much I need to increase it by (in terms of scoops) to reach the levels you are suggesting.  I'll look at it tonight.  Eleanor did comment that having the Alfalfa in the hay makes balancing the calcium more of an issue.

--
Rachelle & Maddie - Kamas, Utah
Maddie Case History
Maddie Photo Album
Date Joined 6/28/2017


Re: *Evaluation of hooves, please--3rd try

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Laura,

- I would never recommend removing heel from the inside, closest to the frog/collateral groove. The same goes for healthy, well-attached frog material. The collateral grooves are not designed to be enormous canyons.
- Laminitis is an inflammation of the lamina, which is not selective for a particular area of a hoof. It either inflames all the laminae or not. If you have separation in only some specific areas, esp only side walls, that's a trim issue.
- NEVER remove, thin, molest the toe callous. If she is sore, even more reason NOT to touch the soles in the front half of the foot.
- For the most part, leave the frogs alone. If there is a fungal issue, soaking in Clean Trax, oxine or Apple Cider Vinegar on a regular basis should take care of it. Only trim away loose, flapping material that might allow pathogens a place to hide. Leave as much calloused frog in place as is possible. They may be shedding if ground conditions change from very dry to wet suddenly. That's normal.
- By the time you see the dorsal wall dishing, the trim is already out of control. That dish should not appear. It tells you the foot is too long at ground level. If the foot is dished, what you see at ground level as the white line isn't the true white line so backing the toe to it/thru it doesn't cause pain. If you are invading live sole - that's an entirely different matter. Don't invade live sole.
- Stop digging out sole. It is not likely that she has false sole over and over again if she is being trimmed on a regular schedule. What she may have is thin soles so there is more exfoliating sole present to help compensate for the thin sole and lack of calloused sole. Leave it alone, even if it appears to be somewhat lumpy or uneven. The bars are a support structure and merge with the sole. When you continually dig out sole, you expose more bar material, which weakens the overall structure.
- Overall, toes are being left too long at ground level and there are flares in the walls that aren't being addressed. Dietary imbalances likely are contributing to some of the problems as without the proper mineral balances the hooves don't have the building blocks they need to grow in healthy and strong.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: getting vet to prescribe pergolide #legalityofpergolide

Nancy C
 
Edited

Though it is a common reason used, I would disagree with her assessment about her license, but that is just me.  As outlined in the other posts, this falls on the pharmacy.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/more_posts_on_legality_of/6059689

Again, the legality has nothing to do with writing a prescription for a compounded drug. Prescriptions don't have to specify the source of the drug. That's on the compounder. A veterinarian selling a compounded drug is another story but if all they do is write a prescription for pergolide they are not involved in any legal issues - although I'd bet the BI reps visiting practices tell them something different.
Eleanor in PA
********************

I would submit you and your vet are not exceeding the VCPR - the veterinarian-client-patient-relationship.

You and/or your vet are not mass marketing this.

This one is more complicated --  "Compounded product mimics equivalent FDA approved product available on market" 

From message  206354  (emphasis mine)

Dosage has nothing to do with it.  It has never been legal to compound from bulk drug when there is an FDA approved drug available. We had to get a special exemption, which was actually a statement that the FDA would look the other way, when pergolide was pulled off the market for humans and there was no veterinary FDA approved drug. Now that Prascend is available, they are supposed to be compounding using that.  Before Prascend and the human pergolide ban, they were supposed to be compounding using Permax - but weren't.  This is why the compounded drug is less expensive.

The legality is complicated. The FDA has no power to rule on anything. They can propose that certain things be made law but only Congress can make them a law.  The FDA also issues "position statements" which basically state how they interpret the law and how they will enforce it. However, position statements have no legal standing. There are existing laws against compounding from bulk drugs. However, two federal district courts have ruled that either that does not apply to animal drugs and/or the FDA is infringing on the rights of the states to oversee pharmacies.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 


from

On Fri, Mar 24, 2017 at 07:50 am, Barbara Rosensteel wrote:

- The FDA has ruled that compounded pergolide must be made using BI's prascend.  But, in two federal court districts, the FDA has been ruled against which means that compounding pharmacies in those districts can compound from bulk pergolide.  Unless I am wrong, district court decisions apply only to the districts in which they are made, and some pharmacies might make the decision to use prascend regardless of the court ruling,  so the only way to know for sure is to ask the pharmacy if they use bulk pergolide or prascend.

 That is all correct.
--
Eleanor in PA


I've found over the years that, sometimes, offering to sign a waiver of liability for your vet, absolving them of harm  for a protocol you wish to follow, gives them a little more courage.  I've never had to actually sign anything, but usually have been able to move them to try new things out.

Hope this helps.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003

 

Save the date! The ECIR Group Inc. NO Laminitis! Conference, October 27-29, Tucson, AZ

Learn the facts about IR, PPID, equine nutrition, exercise and the foot
ECIRhorse.org
Check out the FACTS on Facebook
https://www.facebook.com/ECIRGroup
Support the ECIR Group Inc., the nonprofit arm of the ECIR Group
ecirhorse.org


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