--

Judy in Southwest Missouri
Rudy
10/30/14

Hi, Helen - First of all I have to say: Good Work!!!!!  Chloe's insulin numbers have come down quite a lot since the beginning of this journey.  The ACTH is good (we like to see 20 or below, although some horses do even better if it is in the 16-18 pg/ml range).

The G:I ratio, RISQI, and MIRG can give slightly different results.  With your G:I reading as uncompensated, and the RISQI right at the cut-off for uncompensated/poorly compensated/ compensated, I think you may assume that Chloe is still uncompensated. However, no freaking out!  Just take this information as notice that she shouldn't be grazing, or fed as anything other than an IR horse; and that also she will have a greater leap back into IR when her ACTH isn't controlled (which, in its weird way, is kind of convenient - if you see the eyes getting goopy, the crest enlarging etc and you know her diet hasn't changed, that is a red flag for uncontrolled ACTH).

The crest and body condition have very much improved.  Make a habit of grasping the crest with two hands and wriggling it every day to assess firmness; this can give you advance warning of things going sideways.  I think the trim is much better, also, especially that left front.  You *might* be able to take a little more off the toes on the fronts, but it could be my imagineoscope seeing that.

Well done, you!
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 

Is it still the case that 1 mg Prascend contains 1.305 mg pergolide mesylate?  I am currently giving my mare 4 mg Prascend.  I've seen posts regarding Pet Health Pharmacy and Thriving Pets.  Is there a pharmacy better than another and what about cost?  When my vet quoted me a cost for compounded pergolide vs. Prescend, the difference between that and Prascend wasn't much.  I don't know the name of the pharmacy she is using.
--
Sue H.
June 2017. Markle, IN USA
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Dawn  .
Dawn's photo album  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9764

Hi, Bonnie - there isn't a really good answer to this.  APF certainly can be used as a long-term supplement without danger, but the cost does become a factor. An alternative is to use jiaogulan; it supports nitric oxide production, and improves circulation (always useful in winter), but also acts as an adaptogen. Information about jiaogulan can be found here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives/Jiaogulan,%20Nitric%20Oxide%20Support,%20AAKG%20and%20Supps   in the Pain Medication and Alternatives folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Pain%20Medication%20and%20Alternatives  

I buy mine from My Best Horse:  http://mybesthorse.com/  

There are lots of anecdotes about horses (and donkeys) perking up and feeling much better on the J-herb (although its primary use is to improve circulation to the extremities), and there is good science about the action in the body.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 

Will we get a copy of the program booklet?  We never did get to see the ad that we sponsored.  Thank you 

You can re-test ACTH 3 weeks or more after reaching target dose of pergolide, so you are good to re-test now.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 

Is it to early to retest ACTH? My last test was done in June when I upped him for the seasonal rise. So, we need to find out if the 1.5 mg is working so I can see if he is a candidate for round bales 24/7 in winter. thank you everyone!
--

 

 

Debra Benanti & Beau 7/5/15, Sturbridge, MA

Beau: case history https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Beau

Beau Photos:  

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 04:36 am, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:

Yes, different grass hays have different calories.  That DE is rather high for a low S/S hay so it must have low fiber fractions. Is there alfalfa in it?

I have a question--what are the major factors determining DE? I was assuming simplistically that if a hay has low S/S, it will have lower DE, but Dr Kellon's comment above indicates that fibre fractions (this is ADF, NDF yes?) are important--so higher ADF/NDF means lower DE due to reduced digestibility? 
I'm also guessing that the higher DE in alfalfa is from lower fibre fractions plus starch? So a stalky alfalfa without much leaf would probably have a lower DE?
 
--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 

thanks doc, 

that is interesting, I didn't know calories differed I figured grass was like broccoli consistent in calories.

 zero alfalfa in it ,  its 2nd cut orchard sampled 8/5/17 clean and soft. 
where would i see the fiber content/ is that the NFC , ADF or aNDF? or all three?


im sorry to sound ignorant and waste everyones time but what does 

' target 200kg weight , de intake of 6Mcal mean?"

i was wanting to feed 4 Lbs of this hay with 4 lbs of ODTB cubes and adjust minerals to match, should I discard that idea and look for a lower calorie hay for this particular pony as she is still so overweight..? 

if i feed less than 4 lbs for one meal,she will be hungry i think.. i mean she is a pony after all, .....


Julie with (new) pony in oregon
oct 2006

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8750
https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Case%20History%20Form%20aria%20pony.doc

Yes, different grass hays have different calories.  That DE is rather high for a low S/S hay so it must have low fiber fractions. Is there alfalfa in it?

The % of body weight guide lines (1.5% of current body weight or 2% of ideal body weight, whichever is larger) are a starting point that works well for most (not all) horses on low S/S grass hay which typically has DE between 0.85 and 0.9.  If it's not working then the next step is calorie count using DE.

Your hay will still work but you can't feed as much.

If your target is 200 kg weight, DE intake should be in the neighborhood of 6 MCal.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001

I think he looks better than the last video, more even, looser, somewhat better striding. He needs to be landing heel first at the trot though and not there yet which is why he's kicking up so much dirt. Boots can exaggerate that but he's not landing heel first and with a rider would likely stumble. As you keep his toes pulled well back, his heels will spread, the heel structures strengthen and concavity will develop. It just takes time.
--
Eleanor in PA

 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001

Thanks for sharing ,LJ.

I just don't see what is being described.

Dawn said it so much better than I could:
"Jesse is dropping his left hip as well as short stepping with the RF and head bobbing.  I wouldn't say he is "happy" to be working, rather he's trying hard. LJ, if this were my horse and I just started trying to correct a trim as per Lavinia's advice the first week of October, I would be doing nothing more than walking him for short periods. Trotting is the toughest gait on a  horse's feet and body. Until Jesse is out in a paddock or pasture, and spontaneously running or trotting with no issues, I would not be formally working him. I appreciate your trainer is not longing him in small circles, but nevertheless, he is in lunging equip and therefore he is trying to obey."

Enough from me.

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 

Hello everyone,

thanks for taking the time to help.

I am asking for new pony who is down 100 lbs was 624Lbs  now is 524 Lbs on the vets scale. STill a body score of 7-8 cannot feel ribs even when pressing and has shoulder fat pads.but is looking better.

I have her on OTCB but the price is too high to feed full time, I wanted to give half and half but i am wondering if my hay might be too much for a fat pony who still needs to loose a bunch of weight.

its 7.8%S/S  but 15.5% protein and the DE is .97 as sampled 1.05 dry matter.

It was mentioned to me that this would be too high calorie for a pony trying to loose weight , 

I admit I dont really understand the DE in hays . do different grass hays have different calories ? 
--
Julie with (new) pony in oregon
oct 2006

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8750
https://ECIR.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Case%20History%20Form%20aria%20pony.doc

For Members Who Need Trim Evaluations

When:
Monday, 6 November 2017

Description:

Trim is often the “missing link” in regaining and maintaining soundness. Because your equine friend deserves the best hoof care possible, the ECIR Group is glad to assist anyone wanting trim evaluations. To do this, we need some specific help from you: 

1. Good Photos: Hooves are a 3-D object that we are evaluating using a 2-D medium. That places us at an immediate disadvantage. Good hoof pictures - of clean feet, taken from the correct angles, with good light and non-cluttered backgrounds - enable us to do this as accurately as we can. It helps the volunteers compensate for not actually "being there" to pick that hoof up or crouch down on the ground and look at it up close. Good photos help eliminate and/or clarify some of the variables that play a part in our ensuing recommendations. We understand that this may be awkward to accomplish but it is essential for providing the necessary info we need to help you help your friend. Although the front feet are where everyone tends to focus, providing pictures of all four hooves is encouraged.  Anything that affects the front feet will also affect the hinds, although often to a lesser degree.  If there are trim issues in front, there will also be trim issues behind as it is usually the same individual caring for both sets of hooves. 

 

The sooner we get clear and usable photos, the sooner we can assess and make specific, thorough recommendations. Go here for instructions for taking good hoof pictures.

 

2. Proper Identification of your photos: Having to guess whether a hoof is front/hind, left/right makes helping your horse doubly difficult and the Photo Section of the group chooses its own order when loading your shots so you can't count on them being uploaded in any particular order. Identification of individual hooves can be as simple marking LF, RF, LH or RH with a magic marker on the appropriate hoof before snapping the shots.  For dark hooves try a metallic silver marker or use marked masking tape as a “label”.  Please note that “left” refers to the horse’s left (near side) while “right” refers to the horse’s right (off side).  

 

3.  X-rays: Radiographs are always a bonus as they clearly reveal what is going on inside the walls where our human, non-superman vision cannot penetrate. With the advent of digital x-rays, however, the cost of a basic set has risen considerably. We understand if this just isn't an option but x-rays are never a waste of money when hoof problems are present and sometimes are an essential ingredient to a good outcome. If you are going to have x-rays done, here are some tips on making the most of your investment.

 

Hope this helps with the "why" of your volunteers' repeated requests for good hoof shots.

---

If your equine does not have PPID or IR, your photos go in ECHoof.   This is where all conversation about Non IR and PPID hooves takes place.  Upon joining you will be sent instructions about how to get your photos uploaded. Before emailing your photos please read and follow Getting Good Hoof Photos and Naming Photos and Xrays. 

If your equine does have PPID or IR your photos go in Your Photo Album located in the case history photo section. Once you have posted and correctly named your photos post a message in the main ECIR asking for evaluation. 

-Owners, Moderators & Primary Response Team of the ECIR Group​​

Hi Marian,

The most important thing that needs to get done is to get the trim physiologically correct. Whether you then add shoes or leave Lupin barefoot is your call. Neither of those options changes the need for getting the trim optimal FIRST.

Taking the excess toe length off is going to automatically move the breakover back. Look here to see how the breakover point should be determined:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/photo/1106/2?p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

This is the protocol that farrier Gene Ovnicek uses.

Whether you can rocker/bevel the back of the shoe is going to depend on the type of shoe and the skill of the farrier. Adding wedges or using a wedged shoe can sometimes be temporarily helpful but it can also maintain crushed under heels because the wedge creates constant pressure on the heel area.

Controlling the flaring, backing the toes and getting the medial-lateral balance corrected are the priorities here. If the sole is thin, leave it completely alone. Only work on the underrun heels if doing so does NOT result in invading the live sole plane.

In order to move the heels back you need to take material off of them. If the height of the hoof in that area is already too low then you can't remove anything without making it even lower (a bad thing). Conversely, if there is more height there than is optimal, you can safely cut some off to achieve your goal of moving the heel buttresses back.

HTH.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team

Hi Marian,

You said:
  I hesitate to take away the shoes right now while he already has so much soreness going on. Are there changes we could make while still keeping the shoes for this trim that would help? 

A few messages ago,Lavinia said this:
"I realize you mentioned that you have tried leaving Lupin bare but keeping up with the needed trim corrections is going to be difficult in shoes. Correctly fitted boots and pads would be a better option as that allows for frequent trimming plus provides the cushioning and very important pressure-and-release stimulation that are needed to develop robust frogs and digital cushions."

Lavinia has given you a lot to think about over several messages, so I thought maybe you hadn't noticed this part. It's so easy to miss things when we have so much new information to deal with.( I know!)

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 

Or would you recommend pulling his shoes at this time? Perhaps I should work with my farrier first to get the trim better and make sure it's working before pulling the shoes (so that he's not sore both from being barefoot and having an incorrect trim)? Truly, any thoughts on the best way to proceed would be helpful. I feel like I am changing so much right now and I don't want to force Lupin to adjust to lots of extra things when he's already compromised, but on the other hand, I don't want to keep doing something that is actively making the situation worse. I suspect that's the boat that many of us newbies are in!
--
Marian and Lupin
October 2017, Maryville TN
Lupin Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marian%20and%20Lupin    .
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10302   .

Let us know if you can get the Uckele products, Kath. I tried a couple of years ago with no luck, but the regulations may have changed.
cheers
--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933