Date   

Re: Triple Crown being bought by Purina

 

Hi, Patty - Here is the straight dope:  ESC plus starch must be less than 10%.  Starch packs a big wallop, so must be less than 4.5% (less for sensitive horses). 

You can see the list of safe feeds here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds  (under Core Diet  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet )  

Acceptable ration balancers are here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing/Commercial%20Supplements%20SAFE  (under Diet Balancing  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing  )

I am also copying the acceptable ration balancers here; just so everyone knows this is very much second-best, especially with regard to the major minerals (calcium, magnesium and phosphorus):

Acceptable Ration Balancers (but very much second best to hay analysis and custom mix). These all have no added iron, a very important consideration for our metabolically challenged equines.


Uckele U-Balance Foundation  http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/u-balance-foundation.html

 

California Trace Plus  http://www.californiatrace.com/catraceplus.html

 

Colorado Mix  (no selenium) https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix

 

Colorado Se Mix https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-se-mix

 

VermontBlend   https://customequinenutrition.com/collections/supplements/products/local-blend

 

  For areas where added manganese is necessary:

Equi-VM  http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/equi-vm.html

 

Sport Horse Grass  http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/sport-horse-grass.html

Equi-Base Grass  http://equine.uckele.com/vitamin-mineral/equi-base-grass.html

Arizona Copper Complete (contains manganese)  https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-copper-complete

Note that one should find out if one is in an area needing selenium, or if you are in a selenium-rich area; the same applies to manganese. Your agricultural extension office should be able to tell you.

 

 


--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Still confused about deworming

ferne fedeli
 

My vet recently told me to do fecal tests and not to continue worming regularly unless it is indicated by the tests.  I just did the tests and all my guys were negative.  I imagine she will want me to do some worming at some point, so need to get back to her and ask what to do in the future.

--

 Ferne Fedeli

No. California

Regional Members Database Coordinator

 - see who is near you

Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.

Case History



 





--

Ferne Fedeli

No. California

Regional Members Database Coordinator

 - see who is near you

Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.

Case History


Re: New hoof photos

Sue Hansen
 

Lorna.  I don't know exactly what you are requesting.  I understand you had to separate my photo album link from my CH link.  Do you want me to reconnect the album and the CH link?  
Sue
--
Sue H.
June 2017. Markle, IN USA
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Dawn  .
Dawn's photo album  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9764


Re: Still confused about deworming

LJ Friedman
 

Because my horse is
old 28 and has Cushing’s and IR and probably a not so good immune system,I use ivermectin monthly and twice yearly I worm for tapes. But I will not use prazi quantal as that pose a problem for triggering some laminitis.



--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014  San Diego, CA

 

 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=2117

. https://ecir.groups. io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ% 20and%20Jesse ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/LJ%20and%20Jesse )


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

Lorna Cane
 


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

Hi Lorna,

the clinic was out on by Hoof Geeks.  They have also attended the No Laminitis conference in the past.  
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .



Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

Hi Maxine.

sorry there was a typo in the above as the lines are not veryi but horizontal and if the dip down a bit in the front the clinic people referred to it as a smiley face.
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .



Still confused about deworming

Maxine McArthur
 

I'm so sorry to take up the mods' time with non-urgent questions, but I am still experiencing some confusion about deworming protocols. 
Background: I have done Dr Kellon's Deworming course; I have researched evidence-based deworming and fecal egg counts; I have read the files here and have gone through the messages archives. 

I understand that less frequent drug treatment is now recommended in order to slow the development of drug resistance in small strongyles. However, I don't want to put my horses at risk from parasite-related problems by not deworming often enough, and I need to understand exactly what I am doing and why. I am particularly confused about the relationship between fecal egg counts and encysted small strongyles.

We have three adult horses on an eaten-down track with a dirt loafing area and 8 to 12-hour controlled grazing in small sections that are changed every 3-4 days. We remove manure from the loafing area and track daily. We have a small population of dung beetles that we would like to encourage. 

In Australia we do not have any moxidectin-only wormer--we can only buy Equest+Tape (moxidectin plus praziquantel), so if you want to target encysted small strongyles, you have to do a praziquantel dose as well. Plain ivermectin is available, also ivermection plus prazi.  We can get a combination of pyrantel embonate and oxfendazole that is said to be effective against small strongyles (but not encysted larvae) and tapes. 

The current advice seems to be: 
·         Use faecal egg counts (FEC) to identify horses which are higher shedders of small strongyle eggs.
·         Treating only horses with an FEC greater than 200 eggs per gram will mean treating less than half the population but provide around a 95% reduction in overall egg shedding.
·         Use one or two yearly treatments for all horses to control large strongyles, small strongyles, bots, tapeworms and other parasites.
·         Time the one or two yearly treatments for peak small strongyle larvae transmission seasons (usually spring and autumn). For one of these required treatments, consider using a treatment for encysted larvae (moxidectin) when small strongyle burden is at its peak (spring or autumn). 
 For reduction in shedding of eggs of small strongyles and to limit disease burden for susceptible individuals, higher shedders ONLY should receive one or two extra treatments each year.


My questions are about the relationship between the egg counts and worm infestations: 
1. Is it possible for a horse to have low shedding of small strongyle eggs in the manure, but still have a large encysted larvae burden? In other words, are we putting them at risk if we don't deworm more than twice a year? Dr Kellon's course material states: "
At any given time, approximately 90% of the Cyathostomes inside the horse are in larval stages, including encysted. Fecal egg counts are a very poor tool for determining Cyathostome infestation." and "deworming may therefore stimulate encysted forms to emerge. This also occurs in the late winter/early spring. When large numbers of Cyathostomes are encysted and emerge at the same time, extensive damage to the bowel can occur."

2. If a horse has been dewormed twice yearly with Equest plus Tape, is that enough to keep down the small strongyle infestation to a tolerable level? [given the paddock conditions above]--if yes, would the low shedding demonstrate this? if high shedding, would the answer be no, and mean that the deworming schedule needs to be more intensive for that horse? 

3. If I dewormed my horse last autumn with Equest and it is now spring, and her FEC is low--should I do a moxidectin + prazi deworming anyway, given that it is the peak season for transmission?

4. Is the point of FEC to identify high shedders and deworm them more intensively in order to keep the number of eggs in the paddock at a minimum? 

5. What are the recommended extra treatments for high shedders? 


Thank you so much for any advice. I have always been diligent in worming regularly and getting my head around less frequent, more targeted worming is proving to be difficult! 

--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

Lorna Cane
 

I'm glad it was so helpful!
Who put it on,I guess is what I'm interested in. Names of organizers,or trimmers,or something to identify the business?
Thanks.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

As for the smiley face -  at the bare foot trimming clinic they referred to the wavey line going horizontal on the hoof as a smiley face and state most times it suggests sinking.

It is the same as the green line that Lavinia drew on Riosa's photos that she marked up for me in this pic.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photo/8819/14?p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0


Perhaps it doesn't always suggest sinking but definitely a red flag to me now and will pay attention when I see this now.  The frustrating thing is I learned is many of the things I had been questioning my farrier about and they dismissed are indeed things that scream red flag and something is not right here. But now I know!!!

--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .



Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

Hi Lorna.
 
I attended a barefoot trimming one from a barefoot trimming business in Manitoba that educates horse owners.  It was awesome!   They follow similar guidelines to ECIR for trimming.  Had some major ah ha moments as I put things together!  

Heather Davis
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .



Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

Maxine McArthur
 

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 02:29 pm, hdavis wrote:
As for the smiley face comment - in the hoof clinic they referred to the lines on the hoof that are vertical and that dip down on the fronts as smiley faces and stated this can indicate sinking. 
I have to ask--could you draw a smiley face on the hoof and upload it so I can see what you mean? 
 
--
Maxine and Indy

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: deworming mules

Judy L. Meadows <marktime@...>
 

I have a stubborn gelding who won't take the tube of wormer  easily.  I get apple flavored Ivermectin and put it in the oats i give him.  He eats it right up.

I have wormed my horses with ivermectin for more than 30 years with no problems.



_._,_._,_



--
Judy in Southwest Missouri
Rudy
10/30/14


Re: Salt Lick

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

No, white salt blocks do not contain iodine.
--
Lavinia and George Too

Dante, Peanut, Nappi and George over the Bridge

Jan 05, RI

ECIR Support Team


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

Lorna Cane
 

What Hoof Clinic did you attend,Heather?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: Salt Lick

Kathy Thomas
 

Thanks, Lavinia,
 
Do the white licks contain iodine?  The feed store here says that they do not.
I am feeding iodized salt in Donna’s feed, but was wondering if she needed a salt lick as well.
 
 
 
 

--
Kathy 2017 and Donna

 

Harrowsmith, Ontario

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kathy%20and%20Donna


Re: 2nd attempt - Riosa's X-rays uploaded and trim suggestions requested

hdavis
 

Thanks for the feedback Lavinia!

Will follow your advice and do my best to keep her diet controlled, trim proper and tight and make sure she has exercise.

As for the smiley face comment - in the hoof clinic they referred to the lines on the hoof that are vertical and that dip down on the fronts as smiley faces and stated this can indicate sinking. 


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .



Re: Triple Crown being bought by Purina

celestinefarm
 

Thanks for the clarification Aurelio. I must have landed on a Canadian site and picked up the Cargill ownership instead of Land o Lakes. 
Also good to know that the cubes are being packaged at Ontario Dehy. There are a lot of folks who are still thinking that Triple Crown is making the cubes instead of OD.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Trim Evaluation request, new pictures

kguest@...
 

Hi Lavinia,

Just in case you didn't see this. I think the links are fixed now.

thank you for your help!
Kristen 


Kristen and Jasper, Prince George BC
December 2016
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kristen%20and%20Jasper .
Jasper Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3346 .


Re: Target ACTH Levels

macivor macivor <macivor19@...>
 

Is there a health downside to giving too much pergolide, besides the veil? 
Thank you for all you do for our horses.
casey oregon 2014

On Nov 12, 2017, at 6:03 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:

I've gotten private mails asking about keeping ACTH at 20 pg/mL or lower for PPID horses.

First, a quick comment about lab values. The normal ranges of any value will contain horses of varying ages with no outward sign of disease. That could easily include early PPID horses. What the lab typically does is average the results and set the range at that average number plus or minus two standard deviations. With ACTH, we actually have some studies that compared results to postmortem studies of the pituitary but these are typically fairly small.

Should also mention that recent studies have found older horses without pituitary disease (by postmortem examination) can have ACTH as high as 50 pg/mL and these are not during the seasonal rise.  There is also a paper showing older horses may have an upper normal ACTH as high as 80 or so during the seasonal rise.

The bottom line here is to treat the horse, not the number.  If your horse is doing fine and your ACTH is over 20 but within normal there's no reason to try to force it down more. However, if your horse tests in the normal range but still has trouble with difficult to control insulin and foot pain it may be worthwhile to see how they do with ACTH below 20.
--
Eleanor in PA
 

www.drkellon.com 

EC Owner 2001


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