Date   

Re: ODTBC prices

Aurelio Henriques
 

Hi, Jennifer,
    The distribution in KY is not yet has good as we would like, unfortunately. Now, Southern States can get the product from us, so that is not the problem. They can also get it through Cargill, who now owns the feed division of Southern States. So, it should not be a problem to get the product to the Southern States/ Cargill distribution centre in KY, which traditionally has been the mill in Winchester KY. The problem is that even though they (Southern States) have contacted us, they have not actually gone ahead and placed any orders yet. I am doing all I can and will continue to do what I can, but if they get calls from end users complaining about the situation, that is what tends to get some action. That has been my experience. Whether you voice your concern/ complaint to the dealers or to Southern States head office in Richmond VA, it will be good. Voicing it to both, even better.
    
    Many thanks

Aurelio
Ontario Dehy
Ontario Canada

    
 
    
 



------ Original Message ------
From: "millionairess1989 via Groups.Io" <millionairess1989@...>
Sent: 12/01/2017 9:07:01 AM
Subject: [ECIR] ODTBC prices

I got a rude surprise yesterday when I went to pick up Mill's ODTBC. I purchase them through Southern States in Franklin, KY, usually paying about $21 a bag. Their last order came via TN Co-op rather than their previous delivery channels and the price increased by $10 a bag, almost 50%!! If this is how things will go, then they will no longer be affordable to feed. Just a heads up for everyone. Maybe Aurelio can comment.
--
Jennifer & Mill
Middle TN  2010
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess


Re: Shoulder and flank muscle/fat wasting?

Stepht
 

Since this wasting seems to be occurring recently, is it reasonable to assume (until I get bloodwork done) that her ACTH is still a bit too high and bump the pergolide up one more mg in addition to increasing her cubes?

Her tail is also thinning:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/214926?p=,,,20,0,0,0::Created,,Thinning+tail,20,2,0,6704311
Is there any relation to muscle wasting and Se toxicity/deficiency?

Jani, where is a good chaste tree berry supplier? I always look to My Best Horse first and it isn’t a product they carry :(

Thank you for the info!



Stephanie Thomson August 2, 2016

 

Liberty, Missouri

Katie Case History

Katie Photo Album  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6072

Katie Lab Values Folder  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Stephanie%20and%20Katie 


Able's follow up blood test

Lorismorgans
 

End of the month Able will get his follow up blood test after being on thyroid l for 3 months.(Think I need to put that in his CH). Was shocked by his high numbers as nothing changed. Same hay everything.  Could it be because I had him tested  in the morning. Fed at 6:30am, tested around nine. 
Read that morning not good because first meal might rise insulin?
Should I have him tested more towards noon, with feed in slow feeder net up to then?
Vet suggested only test for insulin. Not glucose, is this a good idea.?
Just want to get a good base line. First test came back low numbers, but it was considered a fasted diet because took blood before breakfast,  second test came high tested 4 hours after breakfast. Just want to get it right this time.
Last question, seasonal rise does or does not affect an it horse. Fall is always terrible for us.
Again, thank you all for being there, and for all you do.
Thank you for helping  us help our horses.
--
Lori  Able & Bodie

 

2016

 

Redding,CA

hhttps://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6053&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 .


Re: Clinical signs

 

I wouldn't wait quite that long. Most of us see improvements within days, assuming the pergolide dosage is the main culprit, and there isn't pain from winter effects, diet, trim etc. A week between dose increases is probably better. I usually tweak up every 4 days, but all horses are different.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Shoulder and flank muscle/fat wasting?

 

I have one *anecdotal* thing to add. This summer, Maggie was losing some topline, and more noticeably her quads. Her hair coat also didn't shed out properly for the first time, ever (she has been on pergolide since 2010).  ACTH was low normal. I tweaked the pergolide up anyway, with no result.  I added 30 grams of chaste tree berry daily (15 g am and pm). This is only half the recommended dose of 60 grams daily, but I had a little trouble getting her to eat it.  Her coat shed a little bit, but the amazing thing is that her topline and quads popped back within a month.  No doubt I could have gotten better results regarding the coat if I used the full dose.

Sorry, team - I meant to report on this months ago, and forgot.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 


Re: Testing horse for IR

hdavis
 


Re: Testing horse for IR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes to both questions.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: LJ and Rhodiola

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

1 to 3 tsp of the powdered whole herb.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: Testing horse for IR

hdavis
 

Hi Jaini.

I hope you are doing well.

I pulled up this email from before and wanted to double check something as having my blood pulled next week hopefully.

Can I just give Rio free choice hay the night before and then right up to when the blood is pulled?  Is that correct?

Can I still give her her mineral and beet pulp the day/evening before?

Thanks!!!

Heather Davis

On Oct 11, 2017, at 2:42 AM, Jaini Clougher <merlin5clougher@...> wrote:

Hi, Heather!  You are so right in not wanting your horse to be subjected to the oral glucose/karo syrup test. It is risky, and totally not necessary.

Your vet can use the Idexx (which is what most vets use); no real need for ACTH at this early age (just going by the odds, here). The reason for getting leptin (which can only be done at Cornell, so the blood has to be sent on) is to help determine if a high insulin is due to Cushing's (PPID) or due to baseline IR. You can do just the insulin and glucose at this stage, as sending to Cornell for leptin will add buckets of money. If I were concerned about PPID, and we were sending to Guelph or Cornell anyway, that would be a different story.  We all have to protect our financial resources, getting the best for our horses but not getting tests which might not be totally necessary at this time.

It is best not to trailer your horse, as that can really skew results - more so for ACTH (not your concern); but insulin and glucose may be affected as well. The best bang for your buck is to actually pay the extra to get your vet out to your property.

Do the single blood pull. Have hay in front of Rio until the vet gets there. If Rio has a bit of a fast overnight (not all of us can guarantee that the horse doesn't inhale the hay net contents before midnight), then book the vet for 4 hours or more after the first hay of the day, and keep hay in front of her til the vet gets there.  If the vet has a whole day of calls after you, ask if you can run the blood back to the clinic yourself to be spun and put in the clinic fridge. 

It is interesting that she has been spooky and sometimes explosive - we have at least one member who can judge her mare's insulin levels by her nuttiness; when diet is super tight and insulin is down, the mare is fine. When her insulin levels are up, the mare is ..... difficult.
--

Jaini Clougher (BSc,BVSc)

Merlin (over the bridge) ,Maggie,Gypsy, Ranger

BC 09
ECIR mod/support

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy

 

 



How much oil is safe?

Patty Franklin
 

Dear Dr. Kellon and Moderators:

I've been struggling to find a way of getting supplements into my mare. Nothing has worked more than a day or two so far. I have discovered that she likes "Debbie's Biscuits," a recipe I found in the ECIR files. I add fresh herbs to the recipe (sage and thyme, plus shavings from a fresh lemon) and make a pill pocket for her pergolide. I do not add the magnesium, Uckele E-50 or the rice bran oil. 

My question is this: Can she have 4 Tbsps of olive oil a day? I got her to eat supplements last night by using a single batch of Debbie's Biscuits. But I recall that oil is not good for our horses (?). 4 Tbsps would allow me to use this recipe twice a day with her supplements. 

Thanks for your continuing help,

--
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
May 2017
Scappoose, OR  USA

Blessing's Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Blessing's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847 


Re: LJ and Rhodiola

Lorna Cane
 

Eleanor,I'm sorry if I've missed this,but what dose are you recommending?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance #FACTS

main@ECIR.groups.io Integration <main@...>
 

By ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance

To be the best advocate for your equine, it's important to know the facts. For the latest information about IR and PPID go to ecirhorse.org. To join our free outreach group and get one-on-one help with your horse (based on science) and access to a wealth of detailed files, go to https://ecir.groups.io/g/main


LJ and Rhodiola

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I know you must be holding your breath heading into December after last year's adventures!  I was reviewing your file for Rhodiola effects. His glucose has normalized. While insulin is still too high it is considerably lower than it was last year. Have you noticed any physical changes since starting the Rhodiola?

Anyone else trying it?

I don't have insulins on them but two local mares have lost their crests on Rhodiola.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


ODTBC prices

millionairess1989
 

I got a rude surprise yesterday when I went to pick up Mill's ODTBC. I purchase them through Southern States in Franklin, KY, usually paying about $21 a bag. Their last order came via TN Co-op rather than their previous delivery channels and the price increased by $10 a bag, almost 50%!! If this is how things will go, then they will no longer be affordable to feed. Just a heads up for everyone. Maybe Aurelio can comment.
--
Jennifer & Mill
Middle TN  2010
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess


Re: Shoulder and flank muscle/fat wasting?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If the diet is low or borderline is total amount of crude protein or essential amino acids, yes it can be helpful.

Should mention you can't build muscle just by feeding more protein unless the diet is protein/amino acid deficient. You also can't counteract the breakdown of muscle caused by cortisol/PPID with diet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: Shoulder and flank muscle/fat wasting?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The magic ingredient here may just be time. With the PPID controlled she should get back to the same body condition score she was before the onset of the seasonal rise as long as she is getting the same diet she was on before and eating an adequate amount. You can also feed her more than usual amounts of safe things in her diet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: 2ns post --- Andy made a successful move to Washington

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Equioxx (which is now available in tablet form for horses too, and less expensive than canine Previcox) really isn't a safe long term for all the reasons Jaini mentioned already. Research has also shown the mechanism of kidney damage by NSAIDs involves suppression of nitric oxide production which is already occurring in IR.

Other options for the arthritis include ethanol injection for fusion if involving the pastern joint, and joint injection with stanozolol. Meticulous trim and never letting it get out of control is also extremely important.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: Swollen sheath after starting emergency diet...

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 02:57 pm, marian kelly wrote:
Also, what kind of damage to the feet would one expect to find in a sub-clinical case of laminitis if it never goes full blown?
Interestingly enough, microscopically you see exactly the same changes. For example, when inducing laminitis by intravenous infusion of insulin the feet of painful horses show the same changes as those that are not obviously painful.  We also have many examples here of radiographs from what is the first painful episode that show obvious thickening of the horn-lamellar zone indicating it actually is chronic.  Sinking is also a consistent feature but not exclusive to chronic laminitis.

Exactly what it is about high insulin that makes the horse tip over into painful isn't clear. It may be degree of tissue "tearing", or level of vascular constriction. It's also interesting to note that humans put on high levels of insulin may develop "insulin neuritis", a painful neuropathy.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
2 for 1 course sale 2018 is on
EC Owner 2001


Re: Tara and Gavilon, radiographs

~NeanPiggy~
 

I was there on Nov 17 and I believe the rads were taken on Nov 28.  I only saw him the day I trimmed.  He was a grade 2-3.  It sounds like he becomes Grade 3 the day after trimming from what Tara says.  He had no heat or pulses when I was there and his respiratory rate was normal.  I wonder if Tara is feeling the heat of the boots more than of the hooves.  I already have a rehab at my house or I would offer to take him here.   I am happy to help.  It's not a fun event, especially when you are alone.
--
Jeannean, Cricket & Willy Mercuri PHCP/AHA Barefoot Trimmer
Ridge, NY 2011


Re: Clinical signs

Sue Hansen
 

My mare is still stiff and sore so I will increase her Prescend to 5 today.  Approximately how long does it take to start seeing improvement after increasing the dosage?  I have been giving the increase 2 weeks before I add an additional .5 to her daily dose.  Should I not wait that long?  Thank you for all your help.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 


--
Sue H.
June 2017. Markle, IN USA
Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Dawn  .
Dawn's photo album  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9764  .

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