Date   

Cabergoline to pergolide transition Dr Kellon

Bonnie Eddy
 

I'm nearing the end of Cabergoline and need to think about transitioning back to cp pergolide. The cab. has not been a good thing for Racham.
When, how long after dose of Cab. and exactly how much  should I give? 
My thinking is that start the pergolide when she starts coming down off the Cab and displaying the increased PUPD?
In a previous post you said to give 1mg over what she had been getting when we switched to Cab. 
Cp 3.5mg (3.5÷1.3=2.6)
Prascend 1 1/2 tab
Cp2.5mg + 1 1.5mg =4mg total
So give 5mg without titration?
I won't go to straight Prascend as my vet suggested.

I actually have a couple weeks left of the Cab but Racham is having all sorts of fluctuations I'd like to get her off asap. My thinking anyway.
High and low, stumbling, lethargic, alert, going well one day suffering the next, body tenderness, on and on.
I FEEL as though the longer we are on this roller coaster, the more behind she is getting. I know it's seasonal rise.
I'm also beginning to suspect that she is just progressing in PPID to the advanced stage. That's actually what Dr Douglas suggested.

Frustrated,
But thankfull you're here
--
Bonnie with Racham from Southern California, Nov/2016

Case History
Racham's Photos 
Ω 

 


Re: Savannah going through a tough time

Lorna Cane
 

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:06 PM, Pat Gauvreau wrote:
I hate having to defend our groups knowledge. It’s an uphill battle I don’t need.
Welcome to the world of horse owners,who advocate for their horses,Pat.
None of us needs this, but our ponies do.
And the more we read, and the more questions we ask, the more we learn, and the more things sort themselves out.
Hard work.
Yes.
But don't forget...........knowledge is power !!
 
--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: Mare with anemia

jmc
 

Dr. Kellon,

I've been wondering - I have rheumatoid disease.  Now, mine shows up on blood tests, but there is also a version of RD that does not show up on blood tests - based on symptoms and joint damage (I think), rheumatologists call it "seronegative rheumatoid disease".

I've never seen the word used here, but have been wondering, is there such a thing as seronegative PPID? Are there alternate ways to test for it, aside from trialling pergoglide?
--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Re: Another question regarding ACTH test

Dawn & Qharma
 

Jaini,

Thanks for your response.  I'll bump him up to 3mg CP and wait until mid-October to retest. 

When I get the CP refilled I will make sure to request the specific dosage from the pharmacy.

He does not seem to have bounding DP at the moment. I have invested a small fortune in boots!  I'll just have to be patient with his foot recovery. Stepping out of my comfort zone is really difficult!  He'll get there and I'm confident I'm doing the right thing.

Thanks for your support!
--
Dawn & Qharma
December 2017, Phoenix, AZ

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Qharma  
Hay Analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Qharma/Hay%20Analysis
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66067


Re: Flax (and salt) by weight or volume?

 

So, here is a little too much information about the subject:

 Flax seed to Flax Oil Conversion

 

Horses on pasture eat about 17 grams/day omega 3 (1,000 lb horse)

 

Flax seed (ground) 3 oz (weight) = 84 grams= 180 mls = .72 cups = 19.2 grams omega 3 = 1,000 lb horse

 

Flax oil  1.3 oz (weight) = 36 grams = 38.5 mls = 2.6 tbspns = 19.2 grams omega 3 = 1,000 lb horse

 

 

Bunch more math below, just for the sake of completeness:

 

Flax oil      = 533 mg omega 3/ gram;  1 tablespoon flax oil    = 14 grams= 7196 mg omega 3;  1/2 tablespoon flax oil  = 7 grams = 3598 mg omega 3

 

Flax seed = 228 mg omega 3/ gram;  1 tablespoon flaxseed = 7  grams  = 1597 mg omega 3;  1 tablespoon flax seed = 7 grams =1597 mg omega 3

 

Flax oil      = 479.7 mg omega 3/ ml;   15 mls flax oil = 7196 mg omega 3;  

 

Flax seed = 106.5 mg omega 3/ ml;    15 mls flax seed = 1597 mg omega 3;

 

 

Flax seed / 2.25 = flax oil (weight)

 

Flax oil X 2.25 = flax seed (weight)

 

Flax seed / 4.5 = flax oil (volume)

 

Flax oil X 4.5 = flax seed (volume)

 

 

 

Flax seed = 2.14 mls/gram= .143 tbspns/gram= 1 tablespn/7 grams

 

Flax oil = 1.07 mls/gram = .0714 tbspn/ gram = 1 tabspn/ 14 grams

 

 And for salt:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/3.%20Minerals/Salt%20and%20Iodine/Salt%20Measurement.pdf  (in the Core Diet Folder) https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet  under 3. Minerals



--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0 .


Re: Amount of pergolide in compounded capsules vs Prascend

Nancy C
 

More reading at #pergolidestrength

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/search?q=%23pergolidestrength&ct=1

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: "How Not to Get Fooled by Equine Supplement Marketing Tricks"

 

Love this, Lorna - thanks so much!!!!  This is a very important subject.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0 .


Re: Savannah going through a tough time

Nancy C
 

Hi Pat

Not Dawn here but wanted to offer my experience.  It is absolutely necessary for you to work with a local vet. When vets have not wanted to go with what I knew to be the best course for my horse, I volunteered a waiver for them in writing that I would not hold them accountable for the action I wanted to take. Once offered, most of them would go along without me having to sign anything.

You have not received your blood work back yet, is that right?

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Savannah going through a tough time

 


Amount of pergolide in compounded capsules vs Prascend

 

Hi, all - I know this is an area of some confusion.  Prascend tablets contain 1 mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate. 

When switching to or from Prascend, make sure to get the vet to write the script as "x mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate" ,  rather than "x mg of pergolide"  That way, each capsule will have the same amount of pergolide as the equivalent number of Prascend tablets. So, a prescription for 2 mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate will contain the same amount of pergolide (and pergolide mesylate) as 2 Prascend tablets.

If you are already on compounded pergolide, and are increasing the dose, there is no need to fuss about whether the pharmacy has given you x mg of pergolide, or x mg of pergolide mesylate, because you are titrating the dose up until you get control of the ACTH. It doesn't really matter what form it is in.

Does that make sense?. 
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0 .


Re: Another question regarding ACTH test

 

Hi, Dawn - Yes, I would increase to 2.5 mg CP. or even 3 mg.  We don't have a lot of information about what happens when a horse is on too much pergolide, beyond an increase in the potential for the Pergolide Veil.  Since the pergolide is only acting on receptors to mimic the dopamine response of the neurons to high cortisol, my guess (and this is just a guess) is that it is unlikely to knock the ACTH to very low levels. It isn't like a drug that actively interferes with cortisol production, as is used in dogs. My experience has been with my horses that once I bump them up, I just leave them at the seasonal rise dose, so possibly that dose is too high during the summer, but I have never seen any adverse effects.

Dr. Kellon, who is the physiology guru, will be able to tell us more about the potential issues with too much pergolide,

Practically speaking, the sore feet may well be an indication of too high an ACTH, but foot pain can be due to other things as well. If you test during a period of severe pain, the ACTH results may be artificially increased.  Since he has fairly thin soles, going completely barefoot is going to take many months of good trims, and he should be in boots during that time. 

As Dawn Wagstaff says, get the pharmacy to do the math for you. If your vet writes a script for "1 mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate", then you will get 1 mg of pergolide, just like in Prascend (each one of those tablets contains 1 mg of pergolide as pergolide mesylate).
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0 .


Re: Savannah going through a tough time

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

Hi Dawn.
Jaini told me to use the same compounding pharmacy she has been using for years and I trust her background on this subject. It’s my vet that has misgivings and I hate having to defend our groups knowledge. It’s an uphill battle I don’t need. Maybe I should increase her dose myself without his permission but he has to call in the prescription and might not agree to the amount I need. Then what will I do?  
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Founder Crisis with Mustang

Helen Connor
 

Hi Carol,
 
I know you'll get some outstanding advise soon from the experts here. As the owner of a Kiger who foundered last winter, I can say you will get through this with the help that's available here. This breed seems exceptionally prone to IR (it makes sense since they technically are ponies). Wishing you and River the best.
--
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR
Member since May 2017
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847


Re: Another question regarding ACTH test

Dawn & Qharma
 

Dawn,

I also use Pet Health Pharmacy.  I guess I messed up when I got the script filled.  My vet let me request the amount.  I had read your advice about the 0.25 mgs capsules so I do have a bottle of those capsules as well.  I guess I can use your calculations, correct?

And when I say he doesn't believe in the seasonal rise - it's not so much he doesn't believe in it but that he thinks it doesn't really affect us here in AZ.

I agree, it can be confusing.

 
--
Dawn & Qharma
December 2017, Phoenix, AZ

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Qharma  
Hay Analysis: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Qharma/Hay%20Analysis
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66067


Re: Another question regarding ACTH test

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

I’m having the same confusion. Vet says compounded isn’t as much pergoloide in capsules as a Prascend tab. I also increased from 1-1/2mg to 2mg of Prascend to compounded during seasonal rise with no sign of improvement. The more I read the more confused I get. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: 2nd Request... Adjust Pergolide Dosage?

 

Hi, Natalie - yes, that is quite a jump in insulin, for a very modestly high-normal ACTH. It looks like Jay may be one of those horses who needs the ACTH in the low 20's or teens.  If Jay were mine, I would go up in 0.5 mg increases every 2 days until you get to 4 mg. (which is just what Pauline is suggesting - thanks, Pauline!)

If anyone is tech-savvy enough to combine all these threads into one, that would be fab!
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193&p=pcreated,,,20,1,0,0 .


Re: Hay- Carb test results

Nancy C
 

Hi Mary

You are fine with this ESC and Starch.  You want to look at "as Sampled" because that is what the horse is eating.

More about all of Equi-Analytical definitions here

http://equi-analytical.com/glossary-of-nutrient-terms/


--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Hay- Carb test results

Fern281 <Arabrider1@...>
 

ill upload (or try to) the actual test result form later when I have access to my PC, but any way, here are the carb test results I just got back...

as sampled.                   Dry Matter

WSC.         5.9.                6.4
ESC.          4.9.                5.3
STARCH.     .6                   .6

so, since ESC + Starch is LESS THAN 10%, I don’t have to soak, right?

and do you use the “as sampled” or “dry matter” numbers?  What is the difference in the two?

thanks!!








--
Mary
Ft Worth, TX
Cimmy
17 yr old Arabian
Cushings and IR
Member since 8/9/18
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Cimmy


Re: Photo Quench???

Fern281 <Arabrider1@...>
 

Thank You!
--
Mary
Ft Worth, TX
Cimmy
17 yr old Arabian
Cushings and IR
Member since 8/9/18
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Mary%20and%20Cimmy


"How Not to Get Fooled by Equine Supplement Marketing Tricks"

Lorna Cane
 

I was looking for something else and came across this article. We address this topic frequently here. This is a good overview of things that can drive a horse owner nuts.

http://davidmarlin.co.uk/portfolio/how-not-to-get-fooled-by-equine-supplement-marketing-tricks/

I *think* what he says is valid. He does own a supplement company,but that doesn't seem to affect what he is saying here.
I'm open to being corrected.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf