Date   

Founder pony update. Good news

Marsha
 

Good morning from central Texas.

I have not communicated recently but I read this forum daily.  Same as the rest of you on this forum:  We are already busy with normal life and then we have some high maintenance beasts! I need to update my case files and also upload new ones for two other ponies I have been maintaining.  I need to upload because I am having success (for now, I don't take anything for granted) and I want to encourage all of you as well.  I work with Uckele for mineral balancing and that is where I buy most of my supplements.  I use bagged feed as well, triple crown (I know that is not always encouraged, but I have kids and homeschool and train/instruct horses and riders along with a part time job, if I had a personal assistant, it would be easier).  I can't get Stabul1 and don't have the time to go further than speak with the local manager as I have done.  I care for 12 horses and two mini donkeys with minimal help at this time so I streamline while staying in the diet parameters.

About a year ago, Oreo was in an acute stage of laminitis.  He spent most of his time laying down,,  His feet still continue to need work but he is a good tempered old boy (over 20 year old pinto welsh pony at 12.0 hands).  He is the unicorn pony all little girls dream about.  Last year, my vet wanted to euthanize or cut his tendons as a last ditch resort to make him pasture sound.  I refused and took off the crazy wedge pads she had the farrier screw on myself after they left and cried and found and joined this group.  But, here we are a little over a year later. I learned how to trim with the guidance of my own farrier and the the advice of people on this forum.  I need to xray Oreo again to make sure we are still on track.  He was up to 13% rotated in one of his fronts and sinking in both. Flash forward a year later:  Oreo is jumping 2 foot 3 on good footing only.  He is going to his first USDF recognized dressage show this weekend with his two little girls to perform the Introductory level tests A, B, and C.  He is active in the local us pony club showing little girls how to ride and does a little therapy work.  He is ridden every day and loves his work. He is cushings and IR.  My vet had refused to increase his pergolide beyond 1 mg but I did per the advice of this group and it seemed to be a key in our pathway back.   His eyes remarkably have not been puffy since the increase. The exercise has helped once he was able to work again.  He is still pretty light but his teeth aren't great either (floated once per year) so his feed has been increased towards soaked timothy balancer cubes three times a day along with 1 lb of triple crown lite split over two of the feedings.  I am always looking for better ways to feed so open to suggestions. He is on biotin supplement with Me and Lys and balancing vitamin and minerals along with triple crown ground flax seed. I have found footing to be very important and everywhere we go I bring "jogging" boots from this super vendor in Canada, they are a member of this group and use them to get from one arena to another if he has to go over a gravel area.

My second IR pony is an appaloosa gelding (Pedro) I rescued from a neglect situation about 12 years ago.  He was skinny and untrained.  He had an acute laminitic episode in 2014ish after being on grass. At that time he was in second level dressage work, but I tested him and he was IR. I changed his diet immediately the day he appeared foundered and we did everything my vet and I could think of (DMSO tubing for three days, it was before I was aware of this group), soaked his hay, changed his feed to under 10% starch and sugars.  He did not clinically rotate per xrays.  I walked him for a month on our sandy loam soil as he came back sound over time before slowly increasing work.  I am lucky to have sandy loam.  He is going to the USDF show this weekend to debut at the FEI Prix St Georges level. I don't expect we will do well at all.  I have to compete in the professional division with their glorious purposely bred warmbloods, but hopefully we won't embarrass ourselves in our debut.  We may not be ready, but we just are going for it at this point because we have an opportunity! My difficulty with him is building muscle on this diet.  He is on similar diet as Oreo. He is worked six to seven days a week.  This pony had added complications of fungal pneumonia, colitis, lymphagitis, liver failure, and septecemia in 2015ish. It was amazing he didn't refounder during those two months in ICU with all this stuff....so its amazing anyway that he is alive.

The third horse is our miniature mare Juniper Junebug.  She came to me mechanically foundered due to neglect.  She had four slippers. With a gradual and correct trim she returned to being sound after 11 months in 2008.  About the 2012-2015 timeframe she had some tender footedness. She was tested (she is now 18) and we found her IR and early cushings.  She is on 0.5 mg prascend.  She is a riding mini. She is jumped cross country and jumps 2 foot with her little riders with ease on good footing.  She is also a therapy mini for my farm.  She has been sound and her feet look normal since 2015. Rotation is within error of a normal horse.

Anyway, I just wanted to share because I am so proud of these ponies and their accomplishments despite their challenges.  I have this group to thank for maintaining them successfully,  I can always do better but we are on the right track.  Hay always makes me nervous because I can't and do not test every batch.  We are in a drought and I am going to have to change again. It is not an easy path but awareness, persistence even when others tell you no but your research tells you something else, while keeping an open mind, and the desire to do the right thing is going to help your horse.  I applaud everyone here for working hard and doing what they can.  Afterall, that is all you can do!

Peace and gratitude to you all.

Marsha
--
Marsha Lewis of Forreal Farm (www.forrealfarm.com and on facebook and instagram)
Elgin Texas ( near Austin Texas)
joined: 7September2017
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marsha%20and%20Oreo/Oreo%20Case%20History%20Scan.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9600


Which hay to pick based on hay analysis?

donabcalhoun@...
 

I would love a second opinion on the two hay analysis results ( I have uploaded both in my case history under hay analysis - october 2018 ).  Once I select the hay - I will need to balance his diet, but first I wanted to pick which of these 2 hay choices would be best for my IR horse, Guinness who has been in a bout of active founder since July 2018.  Can anyone help?  

Thank you!
--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


Re: Mini Archie - Hay Analysis Evaluation Needed

Laurie
 

Hi Dr. Kellon -

Thank you for responding. I will get the hay tested for nitrates. If it comes back high, is there a way to balance it? What causes hay to be high in nitrates?

Archie is pretty comfortable at the moment. I've been walking him 1-2 xs daily and he wants to trot. I'm sure he would run and buck if I turned him loose in the arena. He has not had any pain medication (Banamine) since July 11. He was sore after his trim July 24th so I padded his fronts for a few days and he improved. He had no problem with his August trim, but was sore again after the Sept 7th trim. Per my vet, I had stopped the Isoxuprine Sept 4 because he was doing so well (he'd been on it since July 6), but restarted it Sept 16 as he was still sore and padding him didn't seem to be helping. He was less sore within 48 hours of being back on the Isoxuprine and continued to improve. He will be trimmed again this Friday, Oct 5.
--
Laurie and Archie
July 2018 - Texas

Case History
:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Archie
Photo Album:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=62869



Re: Reading Hay Tests

 
Edited

Jennifer,
You can post documents to folders within your case history folder. So if you received you hay analysis as an emailed document you can save/print it as a PDF. Pdfs can be uploaded into Case History folders. Your hay analysis folder should be within your horse's case history folder. I did find you have a "Hay Analysis" folder outside of your case history folder. That folder should be within (inside) your case history folder. All files/documents pertaining to Halo should be contained within your case history folder which is within the "Files" storage area.


ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


9 questions about next steps

Heidi Wright
 

Skyler is my 5 yr old gelding who severely foundered in July after receiving dexamethasone.  I didn't know he was IR until this happened, as he wasn't overweight and didn't have any symptoms that I had noticed, his feet looked great and each week it seemed like his movement got even better.  I thought he had a hoof abscess because he was he was suddenly sore in one foot, so didn't remove the trigger for two weeks, which made matters much worse.  I have made a lot of mistakes through this process, but found ECIR and  now feel like I can get on track for recovery.
He is on the emergency diet now.  I am getting my grass hay analyzed and will get that mineral balanced.   He is in soft ride boots with custom poured flat gel pads.  My stalls have comfort stall floors.  Some days he looks sound walking in a straight line in his boots, although I trimmed him this weekend and he was a little sore after that trim.  He just came home from a rehab facility and the farrier there was not familiar with our trim, and his heels were too long and he was imbalanced laterally to medially.  His digital pulse is still slightly elevated.

My questions are:

1.  What to do with a 17 hand 5 year old rambunctious gelding who is tired of being on stall rest and so bucks in his stall and runs laps?  How to quiet him?  We are being very careful how we move horses in and out of the barn, he always has a friend, etc. but at times during the day he is jumping out of his skin.

2.  When do I start J herb?  He is on phytoquench.  He did have a very painful hoof abscess that finally drained a 10 days ago.

3.  When do you start walking the horse?  Right now we just walk him into another stall so we can clean his.  I do have stalls runs 14" X 24" that could be a fist step, but I also fear that he will increase his running if he has access to one.  

4.  The soft ride boots seem to be working very well.  Is there any reason to wean him off those?  Why would that be important?  He is definitely more comfortable in them but I do have soft stall flooring and am bedding heavy.

5.  I have taken new pictures after the trim which I will upload to case history later today.  I plan to take more xrays soon.

6.  My vet came yesterday and suggested hoof clinches?  I have never heard of those and wanted to check with this group on them?

7.  Has anyone used magna wave to fight inflammation in the hoof with good results?

8.  Has anyone used acupuncture?  Is it appropriate to do body work, ie chiropractor and massage on a horse that is still somewhat sore?

9.  What am I missing?

Thank you!!


Re: PPID testing

Maggie
 

Hi Jennifer,

I took a peek at your CH and don't see any lab results for IR either. In addition to an ACTH, you should also do an insulin, glucose and leptin.  Here's a link to our Australian file on lab work.  Gribbles in the only lab that does dose the leptin test.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9d%20Country%20Specific%20Information/Australia/Blood%20Testing%20In%20Australia%20March2015.pdf 

You can also find lots more info about testing on the "Diagnosis" page of our website:  https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php   Please share our website with your vet as well!

Is Halo still "very thin" with a BCS of 2-3?  That's a lot of BCS loss between Feb and July, 2018.  According to your weight calculations it's about 24 kgs (~50 lbs).  Can you give us an update on that please?

Could you also take a peek at the foaling date in your CH?  It says "9-12" under year.  Did you mean 2012 and 9 in month?  Thanks!
--
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
ECIR Moderator/Primary Response


Re: PPID testing

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Jennifer
Try here: https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php

Not sure where you are, but my vet uses CSU. Some other vets in our area send the bloods to Idexx or Vetnostics, but it tends to be pricier.
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Reading Hay Tests

Maggie
 

Hi Jennifer,

Depending on where you had your hay analysis done, the column that you want to look at may say "as fed" or "as sampled" or "as is" verses "dry matter".  EquiAnalytical, where most of us get our hay sample says "as sampled".  You want to look at the % column, under the "as sampled" section.  If you post your hay analysis in your CH folder under "hay analyses" we can help you to interpret the values.
--
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
ECIR Moderator/Primary Response


Re: ECIR Group Policy - Tue, 10/2/18 #cal-notice

Mary T
 

Just to clarify, Dr. Kellon has been doing a consult for me. That’s what my message flagging her was about—not a solicitation.

rhanks!


Reading Hay Tests

Halo IR
 

Hi There,
wondering if someone could let me know which columns I should be reading on the Equi Analytical tests to check sugar and starch levels.

Thanks  
--
Jennifer and Halo
April 2018
Australia
Case History
Photos
Ω


PPID testing

Halo IR
 

Hi All, 
wanting to get blood testing done for Halo to check for PPID, is there a specific test I need to ask my vet to do. Any advise would be helpful. 

Thankyou

--
Jennifer and Halo
April 2018
Australia
Case History
Photos
Ω


Compounding pharmacies & titraing up dosage of pergolide

Saucier Kathy
 

Thank you Lavinia for the link for compounding pharmacies.

I have two questions.

 

Many years ago I received my pergolide from Ian Hudgings with Vet Pet Solutions/Thriving Pets.

Have they changed their name or are they in existence?  This one was not listed.

 

Secondly I found a message in the archives about starting at .25 mg and going up every 3 or 4 days by another .25 until reaching the 1 mg prescribed.  So will the pharmacies issue some number of .25mg and 1 mg capsules?  I calculate I would need 18 of the .25mg to start there and add another .25mg each 3 days until I reach the time to start 1 mg.

Thanks,

Kathy Saucier

Texas

Grayson

2005/2018


ECIR Group Policy - Tue, 10/2/18 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

ECIR Group Policy

When:
Tuesday, 2 October 2018

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

 

Solicitation is Against the ECIR Group's Policy:

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld under close examination.

 

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse. ECIR Group approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.

 

Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting in the messages is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.

 

If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to main+owner@ECIR.groups.io 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Dr. Kellon — cabergoline

Mary T
 

Dr. Kellon,

i just sent sent you a private email re capergoline.  It’s fairly urgent, & I want to be sure it’s not caught up in your spam folder.

Thank you so much,
Mary T/Ally


Re: Magnetic therapy for laminitis

celestinefarm
 
Edited

Pat, I don't know if anyone on here has tried magnetic bell boots. 
Here is an article on where science on magnets for bell boots stood in 2009. Most studies show they have no effect, but there have been a couple of studies show they decrease pain, but those studies are not without issues. 
http://veterinarynews.dvm360.com/equine-magnetic-therapy-positives-and-negatives 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Tapering Off APF?

 

Thanks, 
I appreciate your response. My Mouse seems to be coping with the transition onto pergolide really well thanks to the advice I have gotten from the ECIR group and the good care of the farm owner/manager. He is full of energy and wears my old body out on most of our rides.  Just need to find a way to get a little more weight onto him now.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Iodized salt vs salt?

 

Amy,
You will get a response from one of our moderators soon. But I have learned from Dr. Kellon's  NCRPlus course that I do need to add some additional iodine to supplement the level of iodine in the iodized table salt that I include in my horse's diet. I use the supplement "Source" which is based on dehydrated seaweed meal. I cannot get my horse to consume enough iodized table salt to meat his iodine requirements.

Please take a look at this search of our files while waiting for a more detailed reply. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/3.%20Minerals/Salt%20and%20Iodine

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Iodized salt vs salt?

Random Ranch
 

 If we are using iodize salt, do we still need to add iodine plus regular salt? Our does the iodized salt take care of both? 
--
Amy Bennett
Sedalia, CO USA
Joined 5-26-18
King Case History
King and Amy Album



Re: Trim evaluation

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Thanks, Susan. All the ones you have are fine.

The only ones that are missing are the sole plane view for each foot. Here's the link to examples:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Mini Archie - Hay Analysis Evaluation Needed

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You can feed without soaking but it definitely needs balancing and I'd suggest testing for nitrates since protein is high for a mature hay. How's his comfort level? Is he off pain meds?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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