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Upcoming testing
Patricia Evans
Hi,
I updated Dancer's case history with her latest blood results. The vet is planning to retest for insulin around mid November. Can someone look at her results, when they have time, and see if I should request other labs in addition to the insulin? All her labs are better, but still high. Clinically, she looks great (knock wood), so if just insulin is adequate, I'm fine with that, but since the vet will be here anyway, if the other labs need to be done, I will request them. Thank-you for all your help and support! -- Patricia Evans North central Florida July 7 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patricia%20and%20Dancer https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66069
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Lavinia, Could you review my new Xrays and Pictures we took yesterday 11/2/18 ?
Hi Lavinia,
Here are the updated xrays and pics from yesterday. Could you take a look and let me know your thoughts? I am happy that it looks like more sole is growing. I know toes need to come back further but I had been concerned about doing that because I thought the tip of the coffin bone was so close to protruding on the LF, but I think it's possible that more sole has grown, which is great. What is the best way to bring the toes back? Rasp from underneath or above? Have we corrected the bony column rotation? Should I bring the heels down more on the LF? How do I measure the palmar angle of the coffin bones? Are we striving for 5%? I might be wrong, but somehow I am feeling a little optimistic that we are moving in the right direction! -- Heidi Wright joined Aug 15, 2018 5130 State Route 38 Malta, IL 60150 815-761-2341 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heidi%20and%20Skyler https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69604
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Contributing Your Information: HELP US TO HELP YOU! - Sat, 11/3/18
#cal-notice
main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
Contributing Your Information: HELP US TO HELP YOU! When: Description: Donate and or ContributeThe ECIR Group's mission is to provide a bridge between research and real life, with prevention of laminitis the ultimate goal. ECIR Group member's feedback is the back bone of this goal. Our databases and polls collect the data that shapes the equine management protocols that effectively help equines with PPID and IR. Without data future improvements in management protocols is in jeopardy. With data we can answer many of the big questions members have and provide better support for owners to help their equines. In the interest of education and getting equines the help they need, the databases can even be shared with your local equine professionals.
The ECIR Group Inc. is a registered non-profit group. Our mission is to provide a bridge between research and real life, with prevention of laminitis the ultimate goal. Donations will help to fund projects that will bring us closer to that goal. Donations can be made through: Razoo Stock Donator iGive Amazon Smile
For a review of where we’ve been and where we’re going please see this post from Dr. Jaini Clougher BSc, BVSc
Please help us to help you: Click on the following links to share your information. To protect member privacy and our data, you will need your case history link in order to submit these forms. Verification of ECIR Group membership may be required to access some of the database information.
Pergolide Dosage Database Enter your information, Update your entry, View your entry (you may need to request access) or View the statistics.
Regional Members Database - A local listing of members willing to help/meet/share resources with other ECIR members. Enter your contact information, Update your entry or View the database.
CTB Database - Database for equines on both Chaste Tree Berry and Pergolide Enter your information, Update your entry or View the database (you may need to request access).
Hoof Care Professionals List - Find member recommended hoof care professionals in your area Enter your hoof care professional, View the Hoof Care Professionals List
International Safe Feed Sources Enter your local store, Update an entry, or View the International Safe Feeds Sources.
Veterinarians and Clinics List - Find member recommended vets or clinics in your area Enter your veterinarian, View the Veterinarians and Clinics List
Commercial Feed Analyses Library - independent analysis of various commercial feeds shared by ECIR Members Contribute your analysis, View the Library.
ECIR Polls - collecting information to find patterns that will help shape future equine management protocols.
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Re: Pergolide doseages
Hi, Cheryl - you must be tearing your hair out! Could you just clarify for us: how was her foot pain after 6 days of 0.5 mg pergolide? And how was her foot pain after increasing to 1 mg pergolide? And, to be clear, did her foot pain increase 2 1/2 days after going back to 0.5 mg pergolide, or do you mean she was just as foot-sore as ever, but her mood improved?
Pergolide is dosed to effect, not by body weight. Its task is to replace the dopamine that would normally be produced by dopamine-producing nerve cells in the hypothalamus, so how much pergolide is needed depends on how many of those nerve cells have been lost. However, like any drug that affects neurotransmitters, there can be mood changes. Mood changes can also be caused by pain, either constant, increasing, or decreasing. The satisfactory dose is the one that controls the ACTH (which should be in the low to mid-normal range, ie about 20 pg/mL or less). -- Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy . https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711
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Re: Does he have PPID?
Hi, Bridget - Great work on the case history; thank you for that! In addition to Paula's excellent information, I would like to add: with an ACTH that was near the upper-middle of normal in March (ACTH should be lowest in March, April and May), and a result that is 3.4 X the high end of normal (range is 9-35 pg/mL), plus the physical signs, I have a very high index of suspicion that Snapper is PPID (99% sure ). He is certainly IR/EMS by the numbers, and also going by the laminitis in the summer of 2013. The laminitis in October of 2014 could be a combination of IR/EMS plus the seasonal rise; or it could be early PPID on top of IR/EMS.
I Snapper were mine, I would start on pergolide, titrating up by 0.25 mg every 4 days, until you get to 1 mg. Stay on that, and re-test next August or September. (you do have the option of weaning off starting in April, then re-testing in August, but there is a risk of another bout of autumn laminitis). -- Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc) Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger BC 09 ECIR mod/support https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy . https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193. https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711
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Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded
We hear that all the time here .
Marketing trumps evidence in the minds of some vets. Not all vets are like that,though , so a change is often in order. For the horse's sake. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
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Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded
Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
He’s just one of many vets that don’t like compounding. My friends horse is on Prascend and needs to increase dose but can’t afford to pay for Prascend so asked me how she can get a prescription because her Vet will not prescribe compounded pergoloide. So this is what you run into sometimes.
-- Pat and Savannah Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada January 2018 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0
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Re: Pergolide doseages
Hi Cheryl,
Can you add her test results, and any other updates to the CH, so we can see the details ? -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
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Pergolide doseages
-- intermittent improvement noted these days. 4 good this week of note. . A question re pergolide...she is 800 lb started on 0.5 mg for 6 days. No evidence of a pergolide veil. Increased to 1 mg and in three days became very irritable and aggressive with everyone. She bit me badly. Her dose was hence decreased back to 0.5 mg with return to normal behaviour in spite of pain and sore feet within 2 and a half days. Her acth level although specimen was thawed upon arrival was only 3 point above normal ( the spec was spun and frozen appropriately before shipping). I am getting mixed messages r egarding what may be a satisfactory dose ....one ve5 says 0.5 mg a waste of time and another says 1 mg. Too much based on her levels and behaviour Cheryl and Jewel Oct 2018 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel
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Re: Does he have PPID?
bridget.tuckey90@...
Thank you so much for your feedback! :) I am going to look over all of this information and will get back with you. I plan on taking pictures of his hooves tomorrow and posting them properly in the group. Thank you!!!
-- Bridget November 2018, Cleveland, GA Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bridget%20and%20Snapper
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Re: Does he have PPID?
bridget.tuckey90@...
I'm sorry. Not to sound stupid, but are you concerned that his lab result may be inaccurate, or that he does indeed have PPID?
-- Bridget November 2018, Cleveland, GA Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bridget%20and%20Snapper
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Re: Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.
Okay, will do. Thanks
-- June Oregon, USA Oct 2012 Case Histories for Sadie and Chip Sadie's Photos Chip's Photos Ω
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Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded
"My Vet reluctantly prescribed the compound pergoloide with his reason being it’s not as good as Prascend. "
I'd like to see his evidence. -- Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
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Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded
Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 08:45 PM, Jaini Clougher wrote:
-- Pat and Savannah Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada January 2018 Hi Jaini Hope this goes to right place. Had some trouble when clicked the reply button ??? Thanks very much for responding. To tell you the truth, I’m getting concerned we can’t afford to meet all of Savannah’s medical needs. It’s the high cost of the never ending tests. My Vet suggested when he came to take the ACTH tests that we consider euthanasia because of the increasing expense involved. He thought Xrays would have been a better choice, over the blood work, since I couldn’t afford both. I told him I don’t want the euthanasia talk. I was quite upset as he got my husband on that topic which I shut down whenever he brings it up. My husband and the Vet never read ECIR stuff so dont have the same faith that she’ll improve. My Vet reluctantly prescribed the compound pergoloide with his reason being it’s not as good as Prascend. Anyways, I’ll go through your response to her current problems. Re the breakover. I haven’t had any feedback from Lavinia for a while so my farriers just doing her own thing. I’m concerned with the dish at toe and underrun heels and forward bars, which I’m not sure are improving. Also the heels aren’t even on each foot. I thought heels should be back to the widest part of frog but on one side it is and the other (on same foot) is quite a bit forward. I’m no expert but I do see a lot of pictures of how a healthy foot should look from solar view. The laminitic rings do seem to be disappearing to bottom third of foot though. This is a positive sign isn’t it? Re red flags. My Vet thinks 2mg pergoloide is a lot so he’s not likely to increase dose. He’ll likely say the compound is at fault. Not sure he wants to get more involved in Savannah’s case to the point of contacting you. I’ve sent him information about ECIR in the past and all he said was in a nutshell, not scientific research and what “published” documents has Dr Kellon got to her credit? I felt it was a slight to all of us and all the years of trial and error to come up with tried and true info that has helped lots of horses. “You can lead a horse to water” comes to mind. Anyways it’s hard to argue with non believers. How do you tell if there’s damage to circulation in feet? What is neuropathic pain? As far as increasing pergoloide I can do it without telling my Vet. I would have to try to split a 2mg capsule in half to enable an increase to 3mg/day. I’ll run out of her prescription sooner doing this though. Would a recent increase from 1-1/2 mg to 2mg a month ago to now jump up to 3mg daily be hard for her to adjust to? Re hay balancing. No the minerals haven’t been balanced. I forget who it was but recall the Mad Barn Amino Trace Plus was okay to continue with if I couldn’t figure out the calculations myself (which is not something I’d even tackle). She gets 3/4 Cup a day. I dont think the well water at this new barn is too high in iron because it’s clear without smell. The last time I asked the barn owner if they ever had their well checked for iron content I was asked to leave. Don’t want that to happen again as this place is the best I’ve found in our area. Re bumps over eyes thos I see weird because one day they are visible and other day no sign of them. When her head is down eating hay in the tub, I can see the bumps moving in and out. i wash her eyes every day and if needed I put Vetrycin eye ointment in to clear irritation and at night I keep a fly mask on her to keep sand out of her eyes. One thing I’d like to note is her lack of movement possibly causing her lameness. Could be loss of muscle and strength in hind end. I’ve tried opening gate to let her choose to go into pasture even with muzzle off to encourage her to move but now she doesn’t even try. I always remove my other mare to make sure she doesn’t get bothered. I was hand walking her before but I’m concerned that might damage her coffin bone if fragile. Ive been putting Ichthamol on her coronary band to make sure any abscess can drain. She does have a few spots I suspect to be abscess but they could also just be sores from sand rubbing while laying down or caused by the now wet weather. With overcast weather do you think I could let her go in pasture just for the movement she’d get from grazing for an hour while I’m there to watch? She has no life in a small sand box. Too much standing around. So many things to factor into what’s best or when it’s time to give up. Thanks so much for all the time you spend on Savannah. I so appreciate it. -- Pat and Savannah Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada January 2018 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0
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Re: Josie has unexplained laminitis
P.S. Iron doesn't cause laminitis without IR and her insulin levels aren't alarming.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Josie has unexplained laminitis
I think knowing what's going on with the Lyme is more important.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.
June,
Please make sure the marker on the hoof wall goes all the way up to the coronary band and have some thumb tacks on hand to mark the tip of the frog. Very important! -- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Josie has unexplained laminitis
Dr. Kellon, no, I have not checked her Lyme titres for a couple of years. My budget is limited-do you think that is more advisable than the iron overload test? I can getting the same thing the the water tested for $17.50, and that is the only other variable in her diet. -- Helen, Josie and Kyra May 2016 Brunswick, VT, USA Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Josie Josie's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22630 Kyra's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1370
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Re: Our latest film, Getting the Correct Diagnosis
celestinefarm
Christine,
Here is the analysis of Champion Treats. They claim no ADDED sugar. These are not low in sugar or starch because they contain oats. So while the treat has no added sugar, the ingredients themselves are higher in sugar and particularly starch. Guaranteed Analysis: Crude Protein Min 12% Crude Fat Min 19% Crude Fiber Max 11% Moisture Content Max 19% Sugar 11.7% DM Starch 15.1% DM -- Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary Saline, MI 2003
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Re: Slight loss of topline
Tina Hughes
Thank you Nancy and Dr. Kellon.
-- Tina 4/2014 Santa Rosa, California Honey Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tina%20and%20Honey . Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=36565 .
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