Date   

Re: Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

June,

Check out this link for getting rads done:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Getting-Good-X-rays

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Need help assessing progress, please advise. Lavinia may I please have mark-ups by Tuesday 11-06?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Patty,

Yes, her toes are still too long. Her heels are underrun as well. Setting the breakover in the correct location needs to be done asap - the longer you wait, the longer the horse deals with ongoing damage that the lever forces from the too-long-toes create. Gradual removal of laminar wedge generally translates into "never happens" because the wedge just keeps growing, outpacing the conservative efforts to control it.

Extending the trim interval to 5 weeks at this time is a mistake IMO because the trim isn't anywhere near where it should be to put the horse on a maintenance trim interval.

I can get you mark-ups in time for Tues if you will get a few retakes of some needed shots and add the missing ones: need sole planes of both hinds, all laterals need to be true laterals - they are currently obliques, meaning the lens is aimed at an angle that is more forward of the side. Also, if you move a bit further away so that the shot is clear and includes the lower cannon bone and pastern that would be really helpful. Having her standing square is also needed otherwise the leg and pastern angles get distorted.

Check out this link for the specifics:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.

 

While I am certainly no expert on hoof trims, it appears that your horse has contracted heels and heels that are too long. From the coronet to the ground, the toe angle is too far forward.

May I suggest you buy/rent Pete Ramey's DVD series called "Under the hoof." It is excellent, His teaching is clear and the work he is doing is filmed so that we can see what he is doing. There are horses with this very problem that he treats. Once you see it, it's easy to spot these situations. There is a site that rents horse DVD's. The set to buy is a bit pricey, but well worth it if you can swing the investment.

Again, this is just my 2 cents' worth. Look into it and see what you think. In fact, google Pete Ramey. He has a site with lots of info.

Denise


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

celestinefarm
 

Pat
The following is from Dr. Kellon's website regarding her professional credentials. I've cut out some of it in order to highlight the answer to your vet's question of "what has she published?" 
Her field trials are an attempt to bridge( as is ECIR) the "perfect" world of university research and the real world of horses. I would like to know if your vet believes that the tightly controlled, heavily financed conditions of peer reviewed research are actually attainable by the average horse owner, or does using the results of the research and applying it as much as possible to real life situations make more sense and produce more results?
Professional Publications:
Dr. Kellon has also contributed to professional publications and professional meetings. Her topics frequently include muscle disorders, thyroid disorders, and nutrition. Her most recent have been:

Contributing author on laminitis and dietary therapy of insulin resistance in Equine Podiatry, WB Saunders Co, 2006.

Use of the Herb Gynostemma Pentaphyllum and the Blue-Green Algae Spirulina Plentensis in the Horse. Third European Equine Nutrition and Health Congress, Gent, Belgium, March 2006.

Iron Status in Hyperinsulinemic/Insulin Resistant Horses. Third European Equine Nutrition and Health Congress, Gent, Belgium, March 2006.

Treatment of Equine Metabolic Syndrome, Compendium of Continuing Education for the Practicing Veterinarian, Vol 26(2) February 2004.

Books:
As a best-selling author, her books are compelling, easy to read and informative. They include:

The Older Horse, Breakthrough Publications
Keeping the Older Horse Young, Breakthrough Publications
Raising and Feeding the Perfect Horse, Belvoir Publications
Guide to First Aid for Horses, Breakthrough Publications
Equine Supplements and Nutraceuticals, Breakthrough Pubilcations
Equine Drugs and Vaccines, Breakthrough Publications
Horse Owners Veterinary Advisor and Record Book, Breakthrough Publications
Horse Journal Guide to Equine Supplements and Nutraceuticals, Globe-Pequot Press
 

Field Trials:
Best known for her field trials, Dr. Kellon continues to break new ground with her findings. A few are summarized below.
  

In  2000, Dr. Kellon published, in Horse Journal, the results of the first field trial on Chastetree Berry (Vitex Agnus Castus) for horses with Cushings syndrome. For more information, visit:
http://www.equiworld.com/uk/horsecare/veterinary/cushingssyndrome/

In 2000, Horse Journal published Dr. Kellon’s field trial on the use of magnesium supplementation in horses with cresty necks and laminitis.

In June 2000, Dr. Kellon published, in Horse Journal, the first warning against feeding organophosphates to horses. Ultimately, this created awareness amongst horse owners and brought about some changes in common feeding practices
.

In March 2006, Dr. Kellon was a guest speaker at the European Equine Health and Nutrition Congress in Belgium. Her presentations included "The use of Jiaogulan and Spirulina in Horses" and "Iron Status of Hyperinsulinemic/Insulin Resistant Horses". For more information on Jiaogulan for laminitic horses, visit: http://www.naturalhorsetrim.com/Jiaogulan.htm

In Aug. 2006, Horse Journal published Dr. Kellon's article on DSLD's Devastation, which included the results of a field trial treatment plan to help alleviate the pain and symptoms of this disease.

In Dec. 2007, Horse Journal published an article on the use of Acetyl-L-Carnitine in horses with chronic laminitis. This was another ground-breaking field trial on the use of supplements for a chronic condition
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Pat

Just want to add to the thoughtful responses you had here.

When you are trying to figure out what is going wrong and where to spend your efforts and cash, using DDT+E is a proven road map.

Diagnosis -- It would appear her PPID is not controlled and needs further pergolide.  This is the first step to health.  Removing the trigger. Without it the rest is not going to help you.

Diet -- You have stated it is tight, but it is not tight if it is not balanced.  Diet is the primary control for hyperinsulinemia (high insulin). Sometimes drugs are needed as in the case of PPID not controlled, mare issues or lyme disease, but you cannot treat high insulin without a strong approach to the diet.

Trim -- Along with removing the trigger, getting the correct trim is key to controlling pain.  It sounds like you have a handle on what is needed or at least that you have learned that the feet are not as good as they could/should be. If she were here I'd be having a good conversation with my trimmer to get things fixed and be picking up the rasp in between visits. She should be better after the trim.

Exercise -- the fact she does not want to move is due to pain.

From Dr. Wiki -- Neuropathic pain is pain caused by damage or disease affecting the somatosensory nervous system.

Our horses can get this from long term assault to the feet. It comes about in cold(er) weather.  Please see Dr Kellon's proceeding on Winter Laminitis. She may need cold protection.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2015.php

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Pulses

 

Prompted by another thread, I'm going to ask about taking pulses. 

I cannot, for the life of me, get a pulse anywhere on the horse unless it's absolutely pounding.  And I'm an energyworker!

Is there another way to get pulses, some instrument that will pick up what I can't?

Thanks.
--

Laurie and Atticus and Diamond - 05 2016
Collegeville, PA
Atticus Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Atticus%20Case%20History/Atticus%20Case%20History.docx.pdf

Diamond Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Diamond%20Case%20History/Diamond%27s%20Case%20History.pdf 
Atticus  Current Hay Analysis - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Hay%20Analysis/Hay%20Analysis%209-8-17.pdf

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 


 

 

 


Upcoming testing

Patricia Evans
 

Hi,
I updated Dancer's case history with her latest blood results. The vet is planning to retest for insulin around mid November. Can someone look at her results, when they have time, and see if I should request other labs in addition to the insulin? All her labs are better, but still high. Clinically, she looks great (knock wood), so if just insulin is adequate, I'm fine with that, but since the vet will be here anyway, if the other labs need to be done, I will request them.
Thank-you for all your help and support!
--
Patricia Evans
North central Florida
July 7 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patricia%20and%20Dancer  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66069


Lavinia, Could you review my new Xrays and Pictures we took yesterday 11/2/18 ?

Heidi Wright
 

Hi Lavinia,

Here are the updated xrays and pics from yesterday.  Could you take a look and let me know your thoughts?  I am happy that it looks like more sole is growing.  I know toes need to come back further but I had been concerned about doing that because I thought the tip of the coffin bone was so close to protruding on the LF, but I think it's possible that more sole has grown, which is great.

What is the best way to bring the toes back?  Rasp from underneath or above?
Have we corrected the bony column rotation? 
Should I bring the heels down more on the LF?    
How do I measure the palmar angle of the coffin bones?  Are we striving for 5%?

I might be wrong, but somehow I am feeling a little optimistic that we are moving in the right direction!

--
Heidi Wright
joined Aug 15, 2018
5130 State Route 38
Malta, IL  60150
815-761-2341

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heidi%20and%20Skyler 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69604


Contributing Your Information: HELP US TO HELP YOU! - Sat, 11/3/18 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Contributing Your Information: HELP US TO HELP YOU!

When:
Saturday, 3 November 2018

Description:

Donate and or Contribute 

The ECIR Group's mission is to provide a bridge between research and real life, with prevention of laminitis the ultimate goal. ECIR Group member's feedback is the back bone of this goal. Our databases and polls collect the data that shapes the equine management protocols that effectively help equines with PPID and IR.  Without data future improvements in management protocols is in jeopardy. With data we can answer many of the big questions members have and provide better support for owners to help their equines. In the interest of education and getting equines the help they need, the databases can even be shared with your local equine professionals.

 

The ECIR Group Inc. is a registered non-profit group. 

Our mission is to provide a bridge between research and real life, with prevention of laminitis the ultimate goal. Donations will help to fund projects that will bring us closer to that goal.  

Donations can be made through:

Razoo   Stock Donator  iGive  Amazon Smile

 

For a review of where we’ve been and where we’re going please see this post from Dr. Jaini Clougher  BSc, BVSc

 

Please help us to help you:

Click on the following links to share your information. 

To protect member privacy and our data, you will need your case history link in order to submit these forms. Verification of ECIR Group membership may be required to access some of the database information.  

 

Pergolide Dosage Database 

Enter your informationUpdate your entry, View your entry (you may need to request access) or View the statistics.   

 

Regional Members Database  - A local listing of members willing to help/meet/share resources with other ECIR members.

Enter your contact information, Update your entry or View the database. 

 

CTB Database Database for equines on both Chaste Tree Berry and Pergolide

Enter your information, Update your entry or View the database (you may need to request access).

 

Hoof Care Professionals List - Find member recommended hoof care professionals in your area

Enter your hoof care professional,  View the Hoof Care Professionals List

 

International Safe Feed Sources 

Enter your local storeUpdate an entry, or View the International Safe Feeds Sources. 

 

Veterinarians and Clinics List - Find member recommended vets or clinics in your area

Enter your veterinarianView the Veterinarians and Clinics List

 

Commercial Feed Analyses Library - independent analysis of various commercial feeds shared by ECIR Members

Contribute your analysisView the Library

 

ECIR Polls - collecting information to find patterns that will help shape future equine management protocols.

Contribute your information.


Thank you for sharing and helping PPID/IR horses worldwide, 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Pergolide doseages

 

Hi, Cheryl - you must be tearing your hair out!  Could you just clarify for us:  how was her foot pain after 6 days of 0.5 mg pergolide?  And how was her foot pain after increasing to 1 mg pergolide?  And, to be clear, did her foot pain increase 2 1/2 days after going back to 0.5 mg pergolide, or do you mean she was just as foot-sore as ever, but her mood improved?

  Pergolide is dosed to effect, not by body weight. Its task is to replace the dopamine that would normally be produced by dopamine-producing nerve cells in the hypothalamus, so how much pergolide is needed depends on how many of those nerve cells have been lost. However, like any drug that affects neurotransmitters, there can be mood changes.  Mood changes can also be caused by pain, either constant, increasing, or decreasing.  The satisfactory dose is the one that controls the ACTH (which should be in the low to mid-normal range, ie about 20 pg/mL or less). 
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Does he have PPID?

 

Hi, Bridget - Great work on the case history; thank you for that!   In addition to Paula's excellent information, I would like to add: with an ACTH that was near the upper-middle of normal in March (ACTH should be lowest in March, April and May), and a result that is 3.4 X the high end of normal (range is 9-35 pg/mL), plus the physical signs, I have a very high index of suspicion that  Snapper is PPID (99% sure ). He is certainly IR/EMS by the numbers, and also going by the laminitis in the summer of 2013. The laminitis in October of 2014 could be a combination of IR/EMS plus the seasonal rise; or it could be early PPID on top of IR/EMS.

I Snapper were mine, I would start on pergolide, titrating up by 0.25 mg every 4 days, until you get to 1 mg. Stay on that, and re-test next August or September. (you do have the option of weaning off starting in April, then re-testing in August, but there is a risk of another bout of autumn laminitis). 
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

Lorna Cane
 

We hear that all the time here .

Marketing  trumps evidence in the minds of some vets.
Not all vets are like that,though , so a change is often in order.
For the horse's sake.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

He’s just one of many vets that don’t like compounding. My friends horse is on Prascend and needs to increase dose but can’t afford to pay for Prascend so asked me how she can get a prescription because her Vet will not prescribe compounded pergoloide. So this is what you run into sometimes.  
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Pergolide doseages

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Cheryl,

Can you add her test results, and any other updates to the CH, so we can see the details ?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Pergolide doseages

Cheryl Oickle
 


-- intermittent improvement noted these days. 4 good this week of note. . A question re pergolide...she is 800 lb started on 0.5 mg for 6 days. No evidence of a pergolide veil.  Increased to 1 mg and in three days became very irritable and aggressive with everyone.  She bit me badly.  Her dose was hence decreased back to 0.5 mg with return to normal behaviour in spite of pain and sore feet within 2 and a half days.  Her acth level although specimen was thawed upon arrival was only 3 point above normal ( the spec was spun and frozen appropriately before shipping). I am getting mixed messages r egarding what may be a satisfactory dose ....one ve5 says 0.5 mg a waste of time and another says 1 mg.  Too much based on her levels and behaviour
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel


Re: Does he have PPID?

bridget.tuckey90@...
 

Thank you so much for your feedback! :) I am going to look over all of this information and will get back with you. I plan on taking pictures of his hooves tomorrow and posting them properly in the group. Thank you!!!
--
Bridget
November 2018, Cleveland, GA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bridget%20and%20Snapper


Re: Does he have PPID?

bridget.tuckey90@...
 

I'm sorry. Not to sound stupid, but are you concerned that his lab result may be inaccurate, or that he does indeed have PPID?
--
Bridget
November 2018, Cleveland, GA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bridget%20and%20Snapper


Re: Sadie's trim...Jaini, Dr. Kellon, Others please comment on this if you can. This is where the disagreement is.

 

Okay, will do.  Thanks 
--
June
Oregon, USA
Oct 2012
Case Histories for Sadie and Chip
Sadie's Photos 
Chip's Photos 
Ω


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

Lorna Cane
 

"My Vet reluctantly prescribed the compound pergoloide with his reason being it’s not as good as Prascend. "

I'd like to see his evidence.

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: Savannah’s new trim pics uploaded

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 08:45 PM, Jaini Clougher wrote:
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Hi Jaini 
Hope this goes to right place. Had some trouble when clicked the reply button ???  
Thanks very much for responding. To tell you the truth, I’m getting concerned we can’t afford to meet all of Savannah’s medical needs. It’s the high cost of the never ending tests.  My Vet suggested when he came to take the ACTH tests that we consider euthanasia because of the increasing expense involved.  He thought Xrays would have been a better choice, over the blood work, since I couldn’t afford both. I told him I don’t want the euthanasia talk.  I was quite upset as he got my husband on that topic which I shut down whenever he brings it up. My husband and the Vet never read ECIR stuff so dont have the same faith that she’ll improve. My Vet reluctantly prescribed the compound pergoloide with his reason being it’s not as good as Prascend. 
Anyways, I’ll go through your response to her current problems. 

Re the breakover.  
I haven’t had any feedback from Lavinia for a while so my farriers just doing her own thing. I’m concerned with the dish at toe and underrun heels and forward bars, which I’m not sure are improving. Also the heels aren’t even on each foot. I thought heels should be back to the widest part of frog but on one side it is and the other (on same foot) is quite a bit forward. I’m no expert but I do see a lot of pictures of how a healthy foot should look from solar view. The laminitic rings do seem to be disappearing to bottom third of foot though. This is a positive sign isn’t it?  

Re red flags.   
My Vet thinks 2mg pergoloide is a lot so he’s not likely to increase dose. He’ll likely say the compound is at fault. Not sure he wants to get more involved in Savannah’s case to the point of contacting you. I’ve sent him information about ECIR in the past and all he said was in a nutshell, not scientific research and what “published” documents has Dr Kellon got to her credit?  I felt it was a slight to all of us and all the years of trial and error  to come up with tried and true info that has helped lots of horses. “You can lead a horse to water” comes to mind. Anyways it’s hard to argue with non believers. 

How do you tell if there’s damage to circulation in feet?  

What is neuropathic pain?  

As far as increasing pergoloide I can do it without telling my Vet. I would have to try to split a 2mg capsule in half to enable an increase to 3mg/day. I’ll run out of her prescription sooner doing this though. Would a recent increase from 1-1/2 mg to 2mg a month ago to now jump up to 3mg daily be hard for her to adjust to?  

Re hay balancing. 
No the minerals haven’t been balanced. I forget who it was but recall the Mad Barn Amino Trace Plus was okay to continue with if I couldn’t figure out the calculations myself (which is not something I’d even tackle). 
She gets 3/4 Cup a day. 

I dont think the well  water at this new barn is too high in iron because it’s clear without smell. The last time I asked the barn owner if they ever had their well checked for iron content I was asked to leave. Don’t want that to happen again as this place is the best I’ve found in our area. 

Re bumps over eyes 
thos I see weird because one day they are visible and other day no sign of them. When her head is down eating hay in the tub, I can see the bumps moving in and out. 
i wash her eyes every day and if needed I put Vetrycin eye ointment in to clear irritation and at night I keep a fly mask on her to keep sand out of her eyes. 

One thing I’d like to note is her lack of movement possibly causing her lameness. Could be loss of muscle and strength in hind end. I’ve tried opening gate to let her choose to go into pasture even with muzzle off to encourage her to move but now she doesn’t even try. I always remove my other mare to make sure she doesn’t get bothered. I was hand walking her before but I’m concerned that might damage her coffin bone if fragile. 
Ive been putting Ichthamol on her coronary band to make sure any abscess can drain. She does have a few spots I suspect to be abscess but they could also just be sores from sand rubbing while laying down or caused by the now wet weather. 
With overcast weather do you think I could let her go in pasture just for the movement she’d get from grazing for an hour while I’m there to watch?  She has no life in a small sand box. Too much standing around. 
So many things to factor into what’s best or when it’s time to give up. 

Thanks so much for all the time you spend on Savannah. I so appreciate it. 


-- 
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0

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