Date   

Re: LMF Low NSC feeds

 

Hi, Annette - that is a good question! The crude protein in the product is only 10%, so there can't be buckets of alfalfa meal in there. Small amounts of the feed should be okay; once you start her on it, watch carefully for any increase in foot discomfort.   I would say the TC 30% ration balancer is much more of a potential problem, with the average ESC of 9.2% and starch of 1.8%. Some batches will be higher in both ESC and starch.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: LMF Low NSC feeds

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Annette,

Have you sourced soy hull pellets ?

--

Lorna in Eastern Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator 2002
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf

 


Re: help with Pipo - miniature pony - more blood test results arrived - higher insulin + high triglycerides

 

Hi, Anat, and sorry for the delay in responding!

1) Yes, the pain could cause elevated insulin, but the elevated insulin can also cause more pain, so it is a bit of a vicious circle.  http://anesthesiology.pubs.asahq.org/article.aspx?articleid=1944846  

2) The Cavalor Fiber Force *should* be okay in small quantities, which is how you are using it. Good work getting him on the metformin, and I am glad he seems to be feeling a bit better. You can always mix the Stabul 1 nuggets with a bit of the Fiber Force to make them last longer.

3) That's a tough one - If you get the x-ray taken before, then we can at least see how the last trim looks. I don't have a good answer for you on that.

4) Triglycerids: Pip is over the reference range of 0.1 to 0.4 mmol/L, but I can't say just how significant that is.  Ponies may have higher normal triglycerides than horses.  True hyperlipidemia in horses is defined as triglycerides over 5.65 mmol/L, so he isn't even close to that. His levels look to me to be similar to this group of ponies: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1111/j.1939-1676.1991.tb00925.x  

However, the blood results from 31 October definitely show some kind of knock to the liver, as SGOT and  Gamma GT numbers are above normal.  The LDH and CPK could be related to muscle damage, if he has been tensing his muscles due to foot pain.

5) Milk thistle, which you are already using, will support the liver. I am not sure how many grams is in 1 tsp of the seeds, though. The dose for a full-sized horse is 3 grams, twice daily, so I assume the dose for Pippo at 240 lbs would be 0.75 grams, twice daily.

6) When you get the blood re-tested, get insulin, glucose, and triglycerides again, plus ask for the liver enzymes (cheapest way to do this is likely to request a repeat chemistry screen, rather than individual enzymes)

7) Pip can be on the metformin indefinitely. In some horses or ponies, it begins to lose effectiveness after 3 months, so keeping him on a tight diet will be important no matter what. (I know you know this)

8) I don't have an answer to the question about using ashwagandha and jiaogulan together - I will post the question separately.

Thanks for posting, and, again, sorry about the delay. Keep up the good work!
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


LMF Low NSC feeds

Annette
 

I searching for a small amount of suitable feed as a carrier for supplements.  Alley will not eat beet pulp and I have cut alfalfa pellets and hay out of her diet.  I am currently feeding 5 ounces of Standlee timothy pellets as carrier, but was hoping I could do better in terms of starch/sugar.  The only low NSC feeds available locally are those made by LMF.  My local feed merchant stocks both Low NSC Stage 1 and Gentle Balance. However, I noticed that the ingredients include alfalfa meal (not the first ingredient on the list) and wondered if that is a concern or whether the amount in the feed is small enough that it shouldn't be a problem.  
--
Annette and Alley
October 2018, Moscow, Idaho
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Annette%20and%20Alley/Alley%20Case%20History.pdf  .
Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78421  .


Re: HELP! BEHAVIORAL ISSUES

Maxine McArthur
 

On Mon, Nov 19, 2018 at 08:32 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
Changes in cycline and behavior during cycling have been seen with pergolide.
Dr Kellon, is this with confirmed PPID mares or those who are not certain PPID but are trialling pergolide--and are possibly not PPID? Is it just when starting or could it appear if the pergolide dose is incorrect (too much or too little)? By 'changes', do you mean changes compared to before the mare went on pergolide? 
 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Ongoing lameness - please help.

mtillig16@...
 

Hi Lavinia,
I will get in touch with the farrier asap, mark-up guidelines would be greatly appreciated when you have the time please. Thank you (and Pauline!).

- Monique

November 2018, Victoria, Australia

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Monique%20and%20Wizard/Wizard%20Case%20History.asd.pdf

Wizard's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78678&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0


Re: Photos of hooves uploaded

Annette
 

Thank you, Jaini. Could I gradually work toward leaving the boots off altogether in the soft footing in her paddock and shed or do most people find that it is a good idea to leave the boots on some of the time?
--
Annette and Alley
October 2018, Moscow, Idaho
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Annette%20and%20Alley/Alley%20Case%20History.pdf  .
Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78421  .


Re: Diabetic horse? Confused by lab work

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 For starters, see if you can source soyhull pellets instead of soy for your protein supplement. Use as much as you need combined with hay and beet pulp (well rinsed and soaked) to get protein up where it needs to be.

Stop ALL other supplements and get body shots of the horses posted ASAP as well as hoof photos.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Diabetic horse? Confused by lab work

 

Well, right off the bat, please stop the Lifeline = Matrix MV balancer. I have done a lot of looking for feeds and balancers in the past, and I did have some starch and sugar results from the Lifeline and Matrix feeds; I have lost those numbers, but I can tell you for certain that there is nothing in those feed lines that can be safely fed to IR horses. Also, given the fact that the information on the website is so very inadequate: https://ottercoop.com/_customelements/uploadedResources/2017MatrixProductGuide.pdf   you have no idea how much of any minerals they are getting with that balancer.

I am unable to find nutritional information about how much sugar and starch is in cranberry powder. Could you ask your vet if she has that information?  And also, ask what the cranberry powder is supposed to be doing.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: HELP! BEHAVIORAL ISSUES

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

She's been on estradiol since May. Estradiol is the "play nice" hormone. It also doesn't build up over time. This coincides with her pergolide. Changes in cycline and behavior during cycling have been seen with pergolide. I'd stop the pergolide to see if she normalizes. Her laminitis times haven't coincided with seasonal rise which is almost over now. Watch crest, mobility, turns etc. closely but if she stays good without pergolide consider TRH stimulation in early spring or just retest ACTH next August to see if she may need it, side effects on behavior or not, during the seasonal rise.

Is she still on Thyro-L? I don't see any justification for that.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: HELP! BEHAVIORAL ISSUES

 

Hi, Kelly - well, that is pretty distressing for you! 

Some horses get weird when their insulin is too high; instead of becoming lethargic, they get wild.  It is tough to say if Mia is one of these. I wouldn't take her off the estradiol, unless Dr. Kellon suggests otherwise. She has been on it since May, so it is unlikely that it would be suddenly affecting her behaviour. On the other hand, if it is helping to keep her insulin somewhat in check, then taking her off it would be counter-productive.

In other cases, ovarian tumours can certainly cause behaviour changes.  Ovarian ultrasound or a rectal exam, plus serum testosterone when the vet pulls blood, would rule that in or out:  https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2003/winter/Granulosatheca.shtml  

When your vet comes out, get insulin, leptin, glucose, ACTH, and testosterone. Pull the blood before any sedation.  Dr. Kellon, is it worth-while getting FSH and LH done at this time/
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Desi day x-rays uploaded

Bobbie Day
 

Thank you 
i should have noted this was when was first diagnosed with founder
shes had corrective shoeing and trimming since
we have a new farrier but he wouldn’t trim her when he was last here and he won’t be back for two weeks yet. I did take some pictures of her today when we changed out her boots. She did not have a abscess so I’m thinking it’s now her arthritis.
ill upload those photos soon. We have no Farrier’s in our area , but I think the new one that’s agreed to take her on is really knowledgeable.

--
Bobbie and Desi
Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Diabetic horse? Confused by lab work

bokayarabians@...
 


-- The balancer is called LifeLine MD Balancer and to that I add 1/4 tsp biotin, 2tsp methionine 1 1/2 tblsp lysine and 1/2 tsp copper. 2tblsp salt, 1 cup ground flax 1/2 tsp biochrome. This is mixed into 1 cup soy and 2 cup beet pulp (rinsed for the IR and PPID horses) Target and Libby also get 2 tsp cinnamon and 2 tsp bovine colostrum. Target and Libby also get 12 lbs grass and teff hay in slow feed nets, and at the last feed of the night they get a mush of 2 lbs alfalfa timothy cubes and 1 lb of soy pellets.This is the only soy these two get. I am having the trimmer out on Fri and would like to make sure he is on the right track for Target's feet. The others are all ok right now, have had no issues with them except Libby in 2016 when she had laminitis very bad and it was suggested that I put her down. She has been good since then and I am riding her 6 days a week. I am just concerned about the high blood levels in all their tests. I have ordered the metformin but it is not here yet, maybe Mondy or Tues this week.
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Ω


HELP! BEHAVIORAL ISSUES

Kelly Schwartz <kelly@...>
 

My normally unflappable, bombproof mare has not been herself.

 

Riding Mia today, 2 miles into our ride, she pinned her ears at one of the geldings and kicked out at him. Ten minutes later she bucked while kicking out at another gelding. And ten minutes later while gaiting, she pawed the ground, then laid down. I scrambled off her and she got up and took off at a dead run, only to stop, turn around and return to me. We decided the ride was over at that point, returning to the trailer. I alternated walking and riding her, and she seemed her normal mellow self, trying to snag bites of grass along the way. I check her feet, no pain or issues there, no flank pain, nothing on the saddle pad to cause pain, no sign of colic.

 

Ten days ago, I contacted the local vet because both she has been slightly off in recent months, more anxious, more hormonal and horny during her cycle and slightly pissy towards other horses. I asked if it could be the pergolide which she has been on since mid August. He suggested I give her magnesium specifically Quiessence and she’s been on it a week.

 

I joined this group in May, quite distressed about Mia’s recurring laminitis during Winter and Spring. Following some tests (all on the case history form) Dr Kellon recommended Estradoil and Mia has been on 4 mg daily since May.

My questions include:

                        Should I take her off the Estradoil or reduce it?

                        Should she be taken of the estradiol and repeat the hormone tests in 30 days?

                        My local vet will be out sometime in the next few weeks to repeat the ACTH test, should other blood test be done?

 

I don’t feel comfortable riding Mia with others until I find and fix what is causing these behavioral issues. I’m hoping this group can help me figure it out.

 

Thank you so much!

 

Kelly and Mia

Jamestown TN (formerly WY)

May 2018

 

 


--
Kelly and Mia
Dubois, WY, USA
May 2018

Photos
 
Case History


Re: Photos of hooves uploaded

 

Hi, Annette - that flakiness on the hoof wall is just normal periople. It usually gets rubbed off naturally, but at some times of the year (especially when it is wet out) it seems to last longer on the hoof. 

If she is comfy without boots, you can start leaving them off for more of the day, when she is on soft ground.  

It looks to me like your trimmer is doing a good job. You might make faster progress if you can move the trim interval to every 4 weeks instead of every 5 weeks.

Keep up the good work!
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Tractor Supply Cattle Cubes ?

 

I wanted to add to Nancy's excellent advice: since these are made for cattle, the manufacturer will have no need to worry about monensin contamination that can easily occur. Monensin is deadly to horses, so one should avoid products made for cattle.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Ongoing lameness - please help.

Pauline <takarri@...>
 

​Hi Monique,
 
I see that you are also feeding Speedy beet- so you could increase that amount instead of the chaff mix or use maxisoy instead. Both are designed to be softened with water​- so you can make it as "soupy" as he will tolerate.  Try your local Ag place for a hay corer ( Landmark/wefarmers or similar) and I can send you the forms/permits that you need.  The best/cheapest place to get hay tested is Equi-Analytical in the US. I can guide you through that process if needed.
--

Pauline

Geelong. Vic

Australia Aug 07

ECIR Mod/Primary Response

 

 Harry, Jack and Spur's Case Histories   


Re: Request for Lavinia's Mark Ups and Feedback

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Yes, the 5% would refer to the elevation of the coffin bone from front to back.

HOWEVER, that is part of the range of 3% - 5% that is generally found in healthy hooves. What is correct for any individual horse is going to be the angle that aligns the bony column correctly.

If the pads you have are a wedged pad then that would be compensating for the too-low height in the back half of the foot. The RF is more of an issue than the LF.

Use common sense with the riding. I wouldn't recommend hard riding but general work in wedged, padded boots should be fine if she isn't showing any signs of reluctance. Miles are what are going to help the feet remodel once the trim gets tweaked that last bit.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Lily supplements

 

Hi, Kati - Great work so far with what you have been doing with Lily! That was a really severe founder, and she has a way to go, and a lot of hoof growth, before things are more normal. She will likely be blowing abscesses for a while, as well (just what you wanted to hear!)

I would keep her on the two full scoops of Laminox. Once you get ready to re-order, you can consider switching to jiaogulan powder from My Best Horse: http://mybesthorse.com/  That will help a little bit with your post-blood work depleted bank balance. http://mybesthorse.com/  

She is still in the very early stages of recovery, so I certainly wouldn't be thinking about building up muscle at this point. Also, since she seems to be feeling better, I wouldn't make any major changes to the feed. The Uckele Senior looks like a very good ration balancer, but I don't know what the ESC and starch values would be, so for now, I wouldn't chance it. https://uckele.com/equi-base-senior.html  

Is there any chance that you can get your hay tested? That would allow for the very best supplementation, as you can optimize the supplements to the hay.

Let us know when you get the blood results, and keep up the good work!
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
BC 09
ECIR mod/support  https://bit.ly/2MlAtPd  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Request for Lavinia's Mark Ups and Feedback

Sally Stults <jsstults@...>
 

I am starting to understand...thank you very much Nancy and Lavinia.  And thank you for the link to Paige Poss's page...most helpful. 

So to clarify, you are saying from front to back, the rear of the coffin bone should be elevated about 5 degrees when compared to the location of the front of the coffin bone?

Am I also picking up that I should refrain from riding Tabby, until the corrections are put in place on her trim and improvements made, in order to avoid an increased chance of injuries?  I ride her with Renegade boots with poured in pads in front, and barefoot in back.  She has never had a full blown case of laminitis, but likely subclinical (if that is the right description for the times in her past where she has been tender footed on hard ground).

Thank you!--
Sally 04/2013

Big Park, Arizona

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photosearch?q=Sally+and+Tabby

56481 - 56500 of 282324