Date   

Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

Nancy C
 

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 03:28 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
I want to see the details of the actual research, not some cherry picked graphs that have no details.
While we're waiting for actual research, here's a link to a doc compiling discussion, research and info on resveratrol and grapeseed use in horses.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/8%20Commercial%20Items%20Targeting%20IR%20and%20PPID/Resveratrol.pdf

 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

ironic_acres@...
 

If you look at my case file, I had my gelding with high insulin on Metabatol, a stronger version of Reversatol (same ingredients, just more) at his last insulin test. Did not lower insulin levels at all. I had him on it for hock pain, not insulin control, but was hoping for a nice side effect. I have since taken him off as it did not seem to improve hock flexibility.

Tracy and Migo
Ohio

On Saturday, January 12, 2019, 3:28 PM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:

I want to see the details of the actual research, not some cherry picked graphs that have no details. The amounts of these ingredients are extremely small. There is no magic bullet for IR. Outrageous price for what you get.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001


--
Tracy and Migo
Ohio, USA
February 2013

Case History
Migo's Photo Album 
Ω


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I want to see the details of the actual research, not some cherry picked graphs that have no details. The amounts of these ingredients are extremely small. There is no magic bullet for IR. Outrageous price for what you get.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

celestinefarm
 

Laura,
I will post a link to Insulinwise from KPP and hopefully Dr.Kellon will respond. 
The active ingredients in this product are Lysine, Leucine, Quercetin and Resveratrol.  I am unaware there has been definitive research and studies that demonstrate these four supplements, two of which are amino acids and two of which are anti oxidents, that "reverse' insulin resistance. KPP has some good products and they also have a penchant of overstating effectiveness of some of the products, IMO.  In this instance. they state "university research" but don't provide a link to a study. 

http://www.kppvet.com/insulinwise/

Dr. Kellon is an expert in this area and I hope she responds.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: metformin for high insulin

Nancy C
 

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 11:57 AM, <bokayarabians@...> wrote:
Is there anything else I can be doing to help Target recover?
Keep moving forward on your trim.
 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Weight Measurement / Calculation Question

Julie Thomas
 

I tried to follow the weight measurement guidance at https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Case%20History%20Tools/Tools%20and%20How-To%20Help/Horse%20Weight%20Calculation.pdf, but my standard "seamstress" tape doesn't go all the way around my QH.  Is there a special tape for this?  How are others achieving the measurement?  Thanks
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .


Re: Dr Kellon's article Can EMS Horses Graze Dead Winter Pastures?

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Maria

Thanks for letting us know. I thought it might be the case. Don't need the files, but thank you for the offer.  I've been here long enough to remember when Katy was trying to figure things out for safergrass.  Tons of interesting discussions in the message archives about ESC and Starch v fructan, iron overload, balanced minerals and more.  We are really familiar with safergrass and personally there are a number of things that I find problematic.

Dr Kellon as spoken about continued focus on fructan which is not what causes hyper insulin affecting the feet in ~90% of laminitic horses.

My hay is cut in late spring or early summer and I have had consistent lower sugar. Often times, folks take the rule of cutting in late summer or early winter to mean a cut for a late stage hay.  This crop will come in with very low eSC and starch, but has usually lost much of it's DE, protein and has had significantly increased ADF and NDF (undigestible storage carbohydrates hemicellulose, cellulose and lignin)  making the hay very stemmy, unappetitizing and usually a poor nutrient profile.

I have had dry and hot conditions that brought home great hay. I've had cloudy and humid conditions do the same.  Drought can certainly raise ESC.


I would also disagree from my personal experience and viewing the experience of others with what I have read as a broad brush of do's and don'ts offered to allow an EMS horse to graze on pasture. A horse with uncontrolled insulin will always be at risk on pasture.  Hyperinsulinemia is an insidious, cumulative process vs an acute attack, affecting laminae over time. Great lecture from Dr Kellon on this here: https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2017.php   See ACUTE CARE FOR ENDOCRINOPATHIC LAMINITIS

I'm a big fan of balancing nutrients in soils.  It makes great hay.  It will not however, make pasture safe for uncontrolled EMS horses. Same with lush pastures vs overgrazed pastures.  Time of day for grazing and shady areas will also not make pasture safe.

Standing winter hay can be safe, but we're talking about cured hay you would cut down and feed.  As you and others point out, the green which I have seen growing under the snow here in frigid NH, and the roots, have all the sugar.  The horses know this.

We've had lots of discussion about curing hay losing or not losing sugar.  To me, the jury is till out on that and on re-reading discussion it may be that it depends on the individual grass as it is cured.

Summary for me is this:
 
So IME, letting EMS horses graze is always a risk. Testing pasture for ESC and starch won't help you minimize this. Testing hay and knowing what you feed will.

Thanks for the conversation!
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Level of Activity Question (Ike & Sparky)

Julie Thomas
 

I just posted new radiographs for Ike and Sparky, taken 1-8-19.  Both horses are walking comfortably.  When I put them in the round pen that has a 2-3" sand base, they enjoy running, bucking, rearing, chasing each other, etc - free choice, I'm not prompting them.  Based on the current radiographs, is this activity ok for them?  Or do I need to avoid putting them in the environment that encourages this activity until their hooves improve further?

Thank you,
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .


Re: When do i stop Metformin?

Paula Hancock
 

On Sat, Jan 12, 2019 at 02:11 AM, Anat Shalev wrote:
if i am not helping him with movment then maybe it is better to wait with that too.
Hi Anat,
If he is walking well, and the trim is good, and he is landing on his heel and moving out without prompting from you, then hand walking is a great idea.  The caution is to not add trot until he is clearly comfortable, offering it on his own.  Once you up the exercise, keep an eye to see if he gets uncomfortable or reluctant to move.  Grass can be like candy for a diabetic child.  They want it but it is not safe.
Really glad he is making progress.  Keep up the good work!
 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (?)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx

 


Re: Xrays and pictures posted

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Cheryl,

Thanks for getting the photos and radiographs added. Here's the link to the photos:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063

I've added it to your signature.

Definite improvements in the toe length and heel position. Toes still need to come back a bit more. Sounds like you and your trimmer have a good plan in place and it is obviously working so kudos to you both.

We really need to see a full set of photos, however, to be able to make any more specific comments:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: metformin for high insulin

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

A month is a reasonable interval after being on it with no interruptions. In her case, retest all three.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: Further ACTH assessment opinion please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I wouldn't take her off. Retest now, and again August or early September.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: NM, AZ or CO hay?

irish_luck
 

Hi all,

Thank you SO much for your replies, this is just the best group of folks! Paula - I appreciate the tip about testing for cushings... I agree I need to do that soon, maybe this spring when I have the vet out for shots.

The link to the hay exchange is AWESOME!! What a great site. I reached out to a grower in the Durango CO area and turns out he has some orchard grass with ESC of 7.5 and starch of 0.25 so I think I will go with that if I can. Bobbie - thank you for the tip on the teff, I have had my guy on teff before and he has done well on it too. If the Durango orchard somehow doesn’t work out I will outreach you for more info!
--
Emily
Albuquerque, NM area
Oliver --> 16 y/o Arab/Saddlebred with history of laminitis & suspected IR
***I have contact information for two growers in central NM who do nutritional analysis on their hay***


metformin for high insulin

bokayarabians@...
 

Target's blood came back not PPID. When is it time to re test for high insulin after being on the Metformin and Glyburide? She has been on both since Dec. 31. I am thinking waiting until Jan 31 would be a good time? Is this correct? Or should it be sooner? Should I just test the insulin? or glucose and triglycerides too? Is there anything else I can be doing to help Target recover?
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Further ACTH assessment opinion please

Cheryl Oickle
 

Good morning: As per Jewels history, her initial ACTH arrived thawed at the lab and her numbers were "just a bit above normal" at that time (Sept 2018)  As she had another onset of laminitis in October completely unexplained, we chose to put her on 1 mg prascend.  Her older sister and mother both have Cushings.  She has done very well on the 1 mg thus far, although her transition to low sugar hay and 2nd bout of laminitis required an increase in feed after she lost weight. She has since stabilized.
My vet is due out the latter part of March to re x-ray her front feet prior to commencing more rigorous actvitiy(she is being walked three times a week for half hr now)  I am wondering if it would be prudent to re draw her ACTH at that time after taking her off meds for two weeks, draw the ACTH with her on the prascend, or maintain a status quo until August? September and have it drawn prior to a seasonal rise?
Your website and resources are excellent! Thank you

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel


Xrays and pictures posted

Cheryl Oickle
 

I have successfully downloaded Jewels baseline x-rays and trims x2.  Please critique/suggest for further trims.  She is being rasped every 7-10 days by me and then monthly by my barefoot trimmer
--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel


Re: Insulin test results greater than 200

greerd1234
 

Thanks Dr. Kellon; we free lunge the minis so he will get more time doing that.


Re: Dr Kellon's article Can EMS Horses Graze Dead Winter Pastures?

Maria Duran
 

Yes she talks about NSC and WSC in all the articles I have seen.
--
María Durán Navarro
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain) 


Re: Insulin test results greater than 200

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If he's not lame, put him to work. Teach him to drive and keep him well exercised. Best treatment there is. Not being overweight doesn't mean he has no negative effects.  IR minis are prone to elevated triglycerides which can lead to fatty liver or life-threatening hyperlipidemia if they go off feed for any reason.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: When do i stop Metformin?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, that makes sense on retesting. Metformin may also help with neuropathic pain independent of the insulin effect so if comfort changes note that too.

Start trot when you see him trotting on his own when he is outside.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  Tis The Season 2 for 1 Sale
EC Owner 2001

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