Date   

Re: Alfalfa question

Nancy C
 

I was struck last week in seeing how different "alfalfa" can be in different parts of the country. IMO blanket ok for recommended use of this for hay is unwise, especially if it is not tested.

Using alfalfa in small amounts as a taste tempter has always been ok'd here.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Cavallo Boots Mentions ECIR Group

Lynn
 

I think this is a better link...https://twitter.com/cavallohoofboot/status/1097965933300113408
-- Jennifer at Cavallo just emailed me to say she tweeted it, put it on Facebook and Instagram and their website. i don't do social media but I let her know i appreciated the exposure they provided for the group!
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Andalusian gelding

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Cynthia,

The goal is make sure he always has something in his stomach, not in his mouth! Gastric emptying depends on things like particle size, size of meal, amount of starch but a horse on free choice hay often still has hay in his stomach after fasting for 12 hours. If you are feeding 20 lbs of hay over 24 hours in 4 feedings that would be 5 pounds per feeding at 6 hour intervals. Four hours is actually more ideal but often not practical. However, with a very slow feeding set up you can get the interval between when the horse actually finished the hay and when the next meal was fed closer to 4 hours then 6 hours. If you want a decent night's sleep, pull a little from each of the day's feeds to put into the last feed at night. Beet pulp is also very filling so use that to carry supplements and feed it at night. To  make it easier for boarding barn staff, get enough pillows or nets that you can preload them  and ask where they would like you to put them
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Cavallo Boots Mentions ECIR Group

Lynn
 

I bought some entry level boots from Cavallo prior to riding him for the first time as part of starting his rehabilitation/exercise program. They have been amazing to work with especially for someone like me who knew nothing about boots. In the course of conversations on the phone I have talked about this group and what it has done for Relevante. I recently bought some Trek boots from them in preparation for doing some trail riding this spring...they tweeted about the ECIR Group along with a brief video of our first ride with those ELBs. Here's the link...https://twitter.com/cavallohoofboot?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Eembeddedtimeline%7Ctwterm%5Eprofile%3ACavallohoofboot&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cavallo-inc.com%2F  

--
Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Alfalfa question

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Definitely true some can tolerate alfalfa. Some can tolerate glucosamine too. Some can't. It's a precaution.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Andalusian gelding

gypsylassie
 

Hi Cynthia, 
One thing I learned while reading about equine ulcers, that could help Allegro, is to have some hay in his stomach before riding or exercising him.  This will help protect the area of the stomach that is vulnerable to stomach acid splashing when he trots or canters.  

 Caring for an IR horse seems very overwhelming at first, especially when they are foot sore, as well as having other conditions that need to be treated.  But you are in the right place.  Many of us have started out quite overwhelmed. But it really does get much more manageable as you learn more about it and get a new routine in place.  Everyone here is so helpful and understanding, and the website ecirhorse.org is great to read thru and refer to.   And once you start exploring the files here, you'll learn more and more.   
Laura K Chappie & Beau
N IL 2011


On Feb 20, 2019, at 4:00 AM, Cynthia Lang <Langcynthia73@...> wrote:

Hi,

I am a newcomer and have not set up case history yet but have read feed recommendations. Allegro is my 9 yo  Andalusian ( IR type I’ve been told) and has had severe ulcers- ended up in hospital, confirmed by scope.I was told by vet and have read that hay must be in front of ulcer horses at all times. I am at boarding stable. He is out during day in pen that has only a tiny bit of grass but not total dry lot, and he’s in at night. I bought hay pillows to slow down consumption, but enough hay ( untested coastal Bermuda that changes almost with each delivery) to keep him from EVER running out has made him fat! He also gets 1/2 flake Alfalfa divided into two feedings. ( also recommended for ulcers.) He has always been cresty. He gets exercised 5 days a week.  He gets Purina Outlast for the ulcers and a low dose omeprazole. Also Progressive Pro Add ration balancer with a very small amount soaked alfalfa Timothy pellets, a cup ground flax seed. He has not yet been tested. One question I have is, how do I address recommendations for ulcers while feeding him an appropriate IR diet? My vet can not help with this question. Also very challenging at boarding stable. Hoping to get answers and advice on how to balance all of this.

Thanks,
Cynthia Lang


--
Cynthia Lang




Re: Andalusian gelding

celestinefarm
 

Hi Cynthia,
The Outlast has alfalfa, which may or may not be an issue regarding IR. Some horses become footsore on alfalfa and we don't know why. Other's have no issue with it.  Alfalfa is lower in sugar than many other hays but it can have a higher starch content, which is 100% converted to glucose in the horse. Outlast also has wheat middlings, which according to Equi Analytical, average 23% starch, and cane molasses. The proprietary ingredient is some unusual crystalline structure of magnesium and calcium, which Purina claims increases surface area , therefore providing more of the two minerals to sooth the stomach. I don't know if their claims are actually validated, I put up the marketing info because with the number of members here, a lot of people are dealing simultaneously with not just IR, PPID, laminitis, etc. but also ulcers, DSLD, EPM, etc. and they may be receiving the same marketing materials or advice from their vet. 

ECIR tries very hard to help members become both informed and to learn to question everything in the equine nutrition sphere for scientific proof and validity. Treating horses with these different problems and metabolic types can be more expensive than if they didn't have these issues and so often we find members are forking out tons of money for things which either aren't helping their horse (or are actually contributing to their issues) and then they believe they can't afford to do what has been shown to be effective. So one of the things we try to do here is try to pinpoint what the person can discontinue using if it isn't helping or if a more cost effective substitute that is proven is available.

Dr. Kellon would be the best source regarding the Outlasts actual usefulness. IMO( opinion only) , since your horse is on omeprazole, the Outlast is not worth it and may be contributing to IR.  I would think the omeprazole is helping more than anything.

Can you weigh, haynet and soak Allegro's hay? Since you can't change the source of the hay, you could send off a sample to be tested, but meanwhile, bag it( using hanging haynets usually work best for this) soak it( You don't need to soak for hours, put a few nets in a wheelbarrow with water, soak, then dump the water and hang the nets) ? Fish or vegetable scales work well.  I will give you a link to a great Morgan website in which the owner explains about her weighing set up. I don't use laundry baskets, I use the net and just weigh the entire thing, but you can determine what works best for your situation.  If you are going to use hay pillows, soaking the hay , then loading it into the pillows is going to be a messy job, it's always easier to load dry flakes in a net first then soak.
http://www.merriewoldmorgans.com/morgan-horse-news/2015/04/weighing-and-saving-your-hay-by-jackie-brittain/?fbclid=IwAR0RMVqCI4WNJgbRMzHNCKZZIUS62JNbhfph2npOKHnu3yOxZUHiuET_R0g

Hoof testers are , IMO, not a very reliable method of testing for soreness. You can get a reaction out of a horse with thin soles, but no laminitis. Or on a horse with thick overgrown soles , with rotation and founder but not definite spots with testers. Radiographs are very useful as far as seeing coffin bone position, sole thickness, any side or ring bone, etc. but unless there is an area of gas (pus) from an abscess or other abnormality, you can't actually see laminitis. You can only see the aftereffects of laminitis.  The best thing you can do is have Allegro tested via a blood pull for IR ( he is probably too young for PPID) and then immediately start management changes to treat it. 

I've been around a lot of Andy's . They developed in Spain, with N.African and desert blood, to live on very sparse desert like ground, with low calorie food, and to work. ( Very much like my Morgans) They are poster children for IR. Remember it's a type( one that used to be considered an asset) not a disease. You just need to be able to manage them as their type dictates.
You are in the right place, and most of us have been or are in your shoes.  We can help you overcome most challenges.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Mares need help

Marilyn
 

You might try posting them on two Facebook pages, Arabian Re-Homing Group for the US and Canada and on Arabian Owners Who Need Help.  Good luck.
--
Marilyn
July 2008, Downsville, Louisiana
Esca's Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Marilyn%20and%20Esca 
Esca's Photo Album:   https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=68647 



Re: Poll on Weight Loss

 

Hi, Joy, and welcome! I have posted a welcome message to you here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/welcome_joy_and_emmy/29943408?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,29943408  
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Welcome, Joy and Emmy

 

Hi, Joy, and welcome!  What a great job on your case history - many thanks for that.  Emmy sounds like she has found a great place with you.  :)

I love the hay pillows!  They can really be the bee's knees. 
 
You are pretty much stuck with feeding a lot of hay in these very cold temperatures. There is a cold-weather feeding XL in the Pulling it Together folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9b%20Pulling%20it%20Together/Excel%20Calculators    (I also just put it into the Hay Information sub-folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/1.%20Hay%20Information   )
 
Tribute feeds are really not suitable for IR or PPID horses (unless you are lucky enough to have a PPID horse that is not at all IR, and whose PPID is well-controlled).  The Kalm n EZ GC plus has a starch level of 9.5% (average); while the textured has a starch level of 11.5% .  It is much safer to keep starch below 4.5%, or below 4% for sensitive horses.
 
The Triple Crown TC Lite has an average ESC plus starch of 10% or less, as advertised on their website; sadly, many batches are much higher than that. Our members have tested TC Lite at 7.8% to 11.1% .   Have a wee look at Folder 9c Analysis of Various Feeds:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds     (Tribute and TC are on page 2)
 
So, what the heck is safe?  Well, there are a few, fortunately:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/5%20Core%20Diet/2.%20Safe%20Feeds   (in the Core Diet File),  reproduced here:
 

Rinsed/soaked/rinsed beet pulp

 Soy hull pellets

 Triple Crown Naturals Timothy Balance Cubes https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/timothy-balance-cubes/  

Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance Cubes  http://www.ontariodehy.com/tab02-07.htm  

 Nuzu Stabul 1 http://stabul1.com/stabul-1/   

 LMF Low NSC Stage 1  https://lmffeeds.com/low-nsc-stage-1/     

 LMF Low NSC Complete http://lmffeeds.com/products/low-nsc-complete/ 

Haystack Low Carb/Low Fat Pellets  http://haystackfeeds.com/?page_id=69     

 The function of safe bagged feeds is to serve as a carrier so that one can get supplements (minerals, vitamins, joint supps, etc) into the horse.  (bagged feeds are also necessary for some of our elders that don't have much chewing function left). Most of our horses are overweight, so don't need bagged feeds for calorie-boosting.

 

All horses need vitamins and minerals supplemented, and preferably balanced to the forage you are feeding.  While waiting to get your hay analyzed, here is a list of acceptable ration balancers: (in the Diet Balancing Folder https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/6%20Diet%20Balancing   )

 

Acceptable Ration Balancers (but very much second best to hay analysis and custom mix). These all have no added iron, a very important consideration for our metabolically challenged equines.


Uckele U-Balance Foundation 
https://uckele.com/u-balance-foundation.html  (some horses don’t like the taste)

 

California Trace Plus  https://californiatrace.com/about/california-trace-plus/  (will need to add magnesium)

 

Colorado Mix  (no selenium) https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-mix (will need to add magnesium)

 

 

Colorado Se Mix https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/colorado-se-mix (will need to add magnesium)

 

 

VermontBlend   https://customequinenutrition.com/products/vermont-blend

 

  VifArgen Le Cheval au Naturel http://lechevalaunaturel.blogspot.com/p/blog-page_13.html 

 

Mad Barn AminoTrace+  https://www.madbarn.com/ca/product/aminotrace-pellet/

 

  For areas where added manganese is necessary:

Equi-VM  https://uckele.com/equi-vm-7lbs.html

 

Sport Horse Grass  https://uckele.com/sport-horse-grass-pellets-15lbs.html

Equi-Base Grass  https://uckele.com/equi-base-grass-pellets.html

Arizona Copper Complete (contains manganese)  https://horsetech.com/equine-supplements/custom-non-stock-products/arizona-copper-complete (will need to add magnesium)

 

Note that one should find out if one is in an area needing selenium, or if you are in a selenium-rich area; the same applies to manganese. Your agricultural extension office should be able to tell you.

  Joint supplementation is an on-going discussion.  Some very sensitive horses react unfavourably to glucosamine, while for others, the standard glucosamine, MSM, chondroitin is of real benefit.  MSM can interfere with copper uptake, so it is important to have sufficient copper in the diet when using it.   Adequan (PSGAGs) and hyaluronic acid are safe;  Mov-Ease from My Best Horse has been truly helpful for a lot of horses: http://mybesthorse.com/movease.html     

 

One tip for getting the Prascend in: (and I apologize - I can't remember who came up with this brilliant idea):   buy some empty capsules from the health food store or pharmacy; open a capsule, pop the Prascend in, then feed the capsule in a small handful of safe feed.  The capsule hides the smell and taste of the Prascend until it is down the hatch. 

 

And now, just in case this wasn't already too much information, here is  a bit more!:

 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substituteadiponectin for the leptin test.


*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.


*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 


  • mineral balanced  


We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 


You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. I set up an automatic signature for you - hope that's okay! If not, you can go to Subscriptions on the left hand menu, and change it. 

 If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

 

 

Ask any and all questions, and, again, welcome!

 

Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Alfalfa question

Patti Shores
 

I know this is not a favorite on this group but my 26yo Cushings/IR mare only gets alfalfa.  She is doing fabulously on it, perfect weight, NO problems with feet, energetic and HAPPY.  So I am sure it is the individual and you have to decide how much a risk you are willing to take to find out how much your horse can tolerate.  My vet highly recommended my mare be put on alfalfa, he has had only good results with it for metabolic horses but of course doesn't handle the number that Dr Kellon does. 
--
Patti and Penny 
Washington, USA
May 2017 (this time)
Case History


Re: How quickly might I see symptoms when starting new hay?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Quickly - within 1 to 3 days.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Winter Laminitis - New Case History attached

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If they might force him to run around before he's back to his usual level of soundness I'd wait. Otherwise, he can go out anytime.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


How quickly might I see symptoms when starting new hay?

irish_luck
 

I’m sure the answer to this question is highly dependent on the individual horse... but in your experience, how long has it taken for you to notice issues or problems when starting an IR horse on a new grass hay? For example, if my horse doesn’t do well on it would I notice changes in his neck crest, hoof heat or pulses pretty quickly? Or would it take a week or more? I am just curious what others have seen.

This hay (orchard) has been tested <10% ESC + starch but I am keeping a close eye on him because he just started it on Monday. He’s currently sound and asymptomatic. I had to switch from previous hay (teff) due to lack of supply from my usual grower but that hay was also tested, low ESC and low starch. 

Earlier this week I finally was able to get bloodwork drawn for fasting glucose and insulin as well as a TRH stim test... awaiting results.
--
Emily
Albuquerque, NM area
Oliver --> 17 y/o Arab/Saddlebred with history of laminitis & suspected IR
***I have contact information for two growers in central NM who do nutritional analysis on their hay***


Re: Andalusian gelding

Cynthia Lang
 

Hi, Dawn and others,

Allegro is actually sore now and vet is coming tomorrow. Don’t know but I fear subclinical laminitis since he is not super lame. If it is, will he hoof test sore in the toe? Will it show on radiographs?

I can’t tell if the Purina Outlast is bad for IR by this analysis because it doesn’t mention sugar and starch? I only know it has been helping his stomach considerably. He has been on it for about a month.

Also, since I am at a boarding stable, I have no control over the different coastal that is a constant. I can stop the alfalfa hay. I might be able to drive an hour to pick up Timothy if that is better. I feed with hay pillows- currently only pm, but ordered 2 more and will start putting hay in pillows am also. How do I weigh the hay?

Ration balancer: currently Progressive Pro Add Ultimate: recommended by vet who first warned me about IR and Andalusians . I see it’s not on the safe list. I am in Texas- have no idea about manganese levels. If I feed California Trace, which is more affordable, do I need to add manganese?

My head is spinning. Everything is complicated by ulcers. Also, I do not have unlimited funds.

One more thing, requested Case History form for iPhone. Still don’t have.

Thanks to all,
Cynthia Lang


--
Cynthia Lang


Re: Winter Laminitis - New Case History attached

Diana RL
 

He is improving daily! At what  point can I turn him out again (half days)? He misses his friends!


On Tue, Feb 19, 2019, 7:23 AM Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:
That sounds like progress. The problem with stall rest is they don't move so blood circulation is even worse. When that is an issue they are typically reluctant to start off walking but get better the more they move. You can also give the arginine 3 or 4 times a day, up to 10 grams each time.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001



Re: Poll on Weight Loss

Joy
 

I couldn't answer the poll because I just got Emmy in November and she was a little overweight then and has lost a little now. Both she and I are a work in progress. Right now she's on a 3 lb./daily ration of 1 part Tribute Kalm N Easy and 2 parts Triple Crown Lite as we gradually switch her over to being totally on Triple Crown Lite.  She's on 1 mg. of Prascend daily.  I'm using The Hay Pillow in which I mix some palatable low sugar hay (6%) with some better hay.  I'm not weighing it out right now, because of the extreme temps here I want to keep her eating this winter.  The Hay Pillow slows down her consumption, so a little hay goes a long way as she nibbles throughout the day.  The cool thing is, The Hay Pillow is like a giant toy for her.  She loves tossing it, rolling it, sleeping with it, pummeling it. and it's her lunch box, she carries it with her all over the paddock.  It's taking us a while to become educated on all the intricacies of managing a horse with PPID, so we are so grateful for this forum.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Emmy/Emmy.pdf


Long term use of L-arginine and Joagulan?

Diana RL
 

Hi, 

I have just begun using both and they seem (I'm still a little skeptical (mainly because I've tried everything over the last 3 years and nothing has worked), but cautiously optimistic!) to be doing great things for my pony's winter laminitis.  

I have several questions about long term usage and was hoping this group could answer them. 
1.  What are the implications of long-term use?  Does it cause any long-term medical harm and/or decrease efficacy? 
2.  When the weather warms up, should I continue using it at all?  Decrease the dosage?  
3.  I am following Dr. Kellon's recommended dosage, but are these products that can be overdosed?  

Thanks so much in advance!


--
Diana and Scooter
Jan 2019
PA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Scooter%20-%20Case%20History


Re: Alfalfa question

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

I found same thing with my mare. She doesn’t like the balancing minerals (or her meds) so soaked Alfalfa cubes does the trick. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: InsulinWise- would this really help with IR?

 

LJ - can you get a copy of the full abstract presented at the AAEP meeting from your veterinarian? The meeting proceedings are available, https://aaep.org/newsroom/publications but I am not a member and do not have access. I would like to see the description of the experiment because the devil is ALWAYS in the details.

I would also caution members about the wording on the InsulinWise advertisement, "Research-Proven." A an early phase trial in a limited sample doesn't "prove" anything. In human trials we typically go to Phase III trials before any claims can be made about efficacy and safety. Here, you study a few horses and the product goes to market!

There is very little data on the website and whatever is presented (in 4 horses) seems to demonstrate that the product blunts the rapid insulinemic response to an oral sugar test, but what happens after that? All of the data shown emphasize the peak insulin response at 60 minutes. That doesn't inform what the effect might be on chronic hyperinsulinemia. In other words, the product seems to blunt the immediate postprandial effect to a bolus of glucose, but then what? 

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 

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