Date   

Re: Blood work for Savannah

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

Here’s the link to YouTube
 https://youtu.be/5AC-3ujYVRk
of Savannah walking 3 weeks ago after a trim. Before all the snow dumped here. 
RF seems to be only sore foot these days. 


--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Blood work for Savannah

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

I think I’ve just loaded Savannah’s blood work to case history but not sure if it worked. She’s now receiving 3mgs of pergoloide a day. Analysis said 2mg but that didn’t seem to be enough this winter. Only RF seems sore currently. Gets extra jaigolan in feed for the cold weather and wears soft quilted shipping boots that cover entire hoof up to knee. No exercise lately due to snow. Also posted her walking on YouTube. The link is in another message. I’ll repost the link when I find it. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Frankincense and Myrrh for neuropathic pain

 

First off, in my opinion, one does not ever mix homeopathic remedies with essential oils.  Each is the antithesis of the other.  Homeopathy reduces the material to 10, 100, or 1,000 times or more from raw materials.  If you believe that homeopathy works.  The hypothesis being "less is more".  However, essential oils are concentrated to a high degree.  That's the opposite direction of homeopathy.  I was trained to NEVER mix the two as the essential oils knock the homeopathic remedies out the window.  Pick one or the other:  homeopathy or essential oils, not both.

Based on that, I wouldn't waste my money.
--

Laurie and Atticus and Diamond - 05 2016
Collegeville, PA
Atticus Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Atticus%20Case%20History/Atticus%20Case%20History.docx.pdf

Diamond Case History - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Diamond%20Case%20History/Diamond%27s%20Case%20History.pdf 
Atticus  Current Hay Analysis - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laurie%20and%20Atticus/Hay%20Analysis/Hay%20Analysis%209-8-17.pdf

Atticus Photos - https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=42693&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0 


 

 

 


Re: Target's trim

Nancy C
 
Edited

EDITED TO ADD: Would you be able to add sole shots pretty please?

How do the tendons in her fetlocks feel when you put her foot in your lap? How do they feel compared to the other horses? Her hinds?

How is she moving today?
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Target's trim

bokayarabians@...
 

2 new pics of Target's trim from yesterday. They look so short! Are we on the right path? After the trim she limped back to her stall and lay down for the rest of the day. This morning I noticed that she had gone outside at least once during the night. How do they look?
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Vaccinations and ACTH Testing

celestinefarm
 

Amber,
To answer your questions, yes, it is very possible for a PPID/IR horse to compete in endurance.  IR is a metabolic type, not a disease. The PPID diagnosis I'm going to leave to Dr. Kellon and moderators here, it appears to have been very marginal and should not be as much of a problem managing as possibly the IR is. I've never done a TRH test so I don't have the experience to suggest how affected with PPID your horse's test results indicate.
I would be cautious regarding vaccinations. Do only what is absolutely necessary and spread them out. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Carob

Lorna Cane
 
Edited

Hi Barbora,

I'm sorry but I'm failing miserably here.
I'll offer what I can, but I'm afraid I have more questions than answers.

I can't determine how tall she is because I don't know the units used for measurement. She may require a lot of hay, being a Holsteiner, but do you really mean 20kg? Maybe about 22 pounds?
And maybe this is not adequate depending on her size ?

I also can't determine her blood work to make suggestions.I don't recognize the numbers,and can't see a recommended range,to make a guess. I'm hoping someone more with it than I am can help here.

But am I right in thinking that she is only on hay,with respect to feed?
Or is she still on pasture as well.....I'm not sure what your pasture would be like at this time of the year.

Can you feed her ground flax? This would be good for skin and coat.
And can you feed her loose salt, in beet pulp ( rinsed,soaked,rinsed),with vitamin E....have you checked the Emergency Diet in our Files? Magnesium is also suggested there, as a temporary step,until hay can be analysed,and identified deficiencies corrected.

And are you thinking that her teeth are causing problems trying to ingest this?
If so have you tried anything else,as in a mush, to put some weight on? Beet pulp? Soy hull pellets?

Or is it possible her pergolide dose is not adequate?

Can you double check your case history and fill in/add to any areas that would help us  get a better picture?

Sorry for all the questions. I hope someone else will jump in.


--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Re: Carob

Barbora & Shakira <hrvolova@...>
 

thank you for answer. Shakira is after hers teeth problems still very thin( it is a little better, but she need put on weight). She have very dry skin- so I think some of this complnent can help. Thank you 
--
Barbora and Shakira 
Slovakia, 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbora%20and%20Shakira


Re: Carob

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Barbora,

It's  a frustrating journey,for sure. But we are here for the endless questions.
It will get easier.

But I have to ask you a question,in order to know better how to answer yours.

Why are you searching for supplements? What are you wanting them to do for Shakira?
There are tons of supplements out there,as you have found, some better than others for a particular need.

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Carob

Barbora & Shakira <hrvolova@...>
 

Hi all, (sorry for my endless question), but after one year living with a PPID horse I know, that I know nothing about this disease. Now I have found ability to buy different feeding complements, but I am distressed about possibility feeding something wrong. I can buy carob, moulded hemp granules, chia granules, pumpkin seeds, coriander seeds, reed grass, chickory, etc. Have You, pleas, personal experiences with some complements?  I found anything about this in discussies, but not all what I need to know. Thank You very much. 
--
Barbora and Shakira 
Slovakia, 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Barbora%20and%20Shakira


Re: Cavallo Boots Mentions ECIR Group

Nicole Sicely
 

Lynn ~ Thanks for sharing.  I could see a little pep in Relevante's step, but what mostly stood out to me was the amazing smile on your face!!!
 
--
Nicole in VT

Joined 9/22/04


Frankincense and Myrrh for neuropathic pain

Maria Duran
 
Edited

Hi all,

I have stumbled upon this product and I would like to know if it might be effective for neuropathic pain in chronic laminitis and if it could be a good alternative to capsaicin or not. It contains several herbs and oils. It is especified in the label (second picture in the link).

https://www.amazon.com/Frankincense-Neuropathy-Rubbing-Essential-Relief/dp/B003B2RJLM?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_1&th=1&psc=1

What calls my attention is that it says frankincense and myrrh, but later in the label the active ingredients are other plants and frankincense and myrrh are labeled as inactive and seems they are just carrier oils for soothing along with several other oils. 

There is a caution for diabetic neuropathic pain but I don´t know if what they are saying is just to stop the product and visit a doctor just in case you have not been diagnosed, not that you can´t use it for diabetic neuropathic pain, It is a bit confusing.

Any experience with this product for neuropathic pain?

Thanks!
--
María Durán Navarro
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain) 


Re: Micky sheared heels

Kath Chase
 

Continued on from last message Lavinia, Farrier no. 7 just texted and said he will be here to do Micky at 11.30am tomorrow. Appreciate the mark ups if you can possibly do it, but if you can’t I totally understand. 
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Re: Hygain Zero

 

Hi, Kylei, and thanks for posting! Welcome to the group :)    I have posted a more complete welcome letter here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/welcome_to_kylei/29966823?p=,,,20,0,0,0::recentpostdate%2Fsticky,,,20,2,0,29966823    
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Welcome to Kylei!

 

Hi, Kylei, and welcome!  I am glad your ponies are doing well - good job!

 

Just so everyone knows, Hygain Zero is not a ration balancer - it is a complete feed. https://www.hygain.com.au/feeds/zero/    It is an excellent feed for what it is meant for (complete feed), and very safe for IR horses. If you are using it to add minerals and vitamins into your pony or horse, it won't help, because that is not what it is designed for. It is designed to be a replacement feed for horses that can't eat hay (due to chewing issues); or as a partial replacement for hay.  It is a great, safe feed for use as a carrier to add supplements to (such as a ration balancer, or other supplements), but is not meant to provide extra minerals and vitamins.  

 

The two Pryde's products you have mentioned look really good - I suspect your ponies have started doing better because they are now getting an actual ration balancer (the Easikeeper  https://www.prydes.com.au/easikeeper   ) Please do make sure you are giving enough for your ponies’ weights such that they are getting the minerals they need.

 

  The Easisport is another complete feed, so is of use as a carrier, but don’t expect it to really supplement vitamins and minerals.  https://www.prydes.com.au/easisport   

 

 

Carol Layton jof Balanced Equine has a couple of excellent ration balancers: https://www.balancedequine.com.au/  

 

Your best approach to health for your crew is to get your hay tested, and balance the minerals to the hay analysis.

 

And now, here is the official welcome letter. Sit back, grab a cuppa, and take your time reading – there is a lot of information!

 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substituteadiponectin for the leptin test.


*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.


*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 


  • mineral balanced  


We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 


You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. You can set up an automatic signature so you don't have to remember to do it. 

 

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.


If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.

Ask any and all questions, and, again, welcome!

--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Hygain Zero

Maxine McArthur
 

Cindy, if it's extra protein you're looking for, can you get split peas there? They are safe and you don't need much. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Hygain Zero

Maxine McArthur
 

Yes, about that.
I have small hands and I just grab a little--I measured it once, and it was about a standard 1/4 measuring cup, so 40-50g. I mix all the other stuff (1/2 cup beet pulp plus maxisoy soaked with mineral mix and salt, just before feeding mix well with 1 cup mixed chaff and ground linseed and chondroitin sulfate), then leave the Zero scattered on the top with a pergolide capsule on the top too. Most days it goes down. On the days it doesn't, I have a spare pergolide capsule that I dissolve and syringe in. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Lavinia, updated the photo files....we were diagnosed May 2018...how are we looking?

Random Ranch
 

I just updated my hooves pics.  I have had to switch farriers two times since diagnosis of Insulin Resistance and mechanical laminitis episode in May 2018.  I am currently taking the NRC plus course, but I think my trim is still not on point.  My farrier actually opted to not trim my guy last trip.  "He said he just didn't have enough foot."  So we are scheduled in 3-weeks.  If you have a minute, would you be so kind as to see our progress.  Thank you so very much!
--
Amy Bennett
Sedalia, CO USA
Joined 5-26-18
King Case History
King and Amy Album



Re: Hygain Zero

Cindy Q
 

Hi Maxine

When you use zero as a taste tempter, is it in the amount of 2 to 3 tablespoons?

--
Cindy - Sep 2017, Singapore


Re: Hygain Zero

Cindy Q
 

Thank you both.

I'm in Singapore so there is no Easikeeper or Maxisoy here or teff hay. Hygain Zero is a special order as well and sometimes goes out of stock. Our centre was the one who started ordering it in regularly and we are able to take a fair number so the supplier tries to order it every month now but sometimes things get delayed a week or private horse owners want some and it goes quicker than expected.

My trouble with a sprinkle is the feeding is done by barn staff and we can write 1/4 scoop (200 to 200grams) on the feed chart but a handful is subjective and different staff do the feeding. If it is something that is risky and sensitive, I still try to do without for the high risk pony. We have been giving Top 3 aminos (Carol Layton) but am waiting for the next batch as my friend is going to carry it back from Australia. Always looking out in case of changes if something could be easier/better here.

Further, have a friend here who keeps a horse across the border in Malaysia. The horse has laminitis. Currently comfortable in boots and pads but we have been discussing the feeding and how it can improve and she has even fewer choices there but is thinking to take some Zero from here to try there to replace the higher starch Fibressential from Hygain that is available there. That's a 16.1hh horse on higher amounts of feed so I'm concerned for her as well. It's already on soaked timothy. She's not sure the barn there will feed the micrbeet and her previous experience was that the horse refused to eat wet feed. Again micrbeet so far looking is looking like something she has to source here. If she feeds a higher amount, I feel its a higher risk so I am just trying to find out more.

I even tried emailing Hygain to give them feedback that they could lower the starch amounts in Fibressential as we do find it a very palatable feed and we know it is now popular with the race trainers here so where before we were the ones ordering a lot and having to time our special orders, they now bring it more and keep it in stock regularly.
--
Cindy - Sep 2017, Singapore

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