Date   

Re: Anyone dealt with Green Mountain Supplements fro Attica NY

celestinefarm
 

The vitamin and mineral supplement includes added iron sulfate. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Low positive ACTH

Nancy C
 

Works on needle shy horses too. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Low positive ACTH

 

One thing you can do is use clicker training to teach him that needles predict good things.  Zoos do it all the time to teach animals to willingly have blood drawn.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Re: Anyone dealt with Green Mountain Supplements fro Attica NY

Sherry Morse
 


Re: Low positive ACTH

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jaini,

Thanks for the insight.  I was reading about how high readings could result from blood pulled on needle-phobic horses and while Scutch is not a fling himself around the stall sort, he's definitely not a fan of the vet so there's that too as well as the age factor.  

Frankly the TRH stim test scares me a bit but I'll have a conversation with the vet tomorrow and see if she's agreeable to waiting to retest when we hit the seasonal rise or if we'll go that route instead.  Other than the slightly longer hair the only other change I've noticed is he's been a tad spookier than usual but it's not consistent so I find myself wondering if it's 'hey I'd rather spook than work' or if it's actually something.  Dang horse is definitely going to give me more grey hair, that's for sure!



--

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)

EC Primary Response

PA 2014

 

 


Re: Feeding frequency

celestinefarm
 

Cheryl,
Is there any reason she can't have a hay net during the night? Is she stalled at night?
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Anyone dealt with Green Mountain Supplements fro Attica NY

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Sue,

Which of their products are you considering?
Can you provide a link?

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Anyone dealt with Green Mountain Supplements fro Attica NY

Sue Neidlinger
 

I was at a seminar yesterday and there was a gentleman talking about hay testing. He represented a company very close to where I live, Green Mountain Supplements in Attica NY. 
I would love to use someone local but I wasn’t sure if the supplements he sold were truly ok for IR horses   He said they were and that was no added carrier to them thus adding sugars or starches. 
Has anyone dealt with this company and would you know if his claims are accurate? 
--


Sue and Spirit 

Burt, NY, USA
Aug 2017
Spirit's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sue%20and%20Spirit 
Spirit's Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8806 .


Re: loose stool and mild diarrhea

 

Josie used to have loose stools often also.  I treated her for ulcers, which didn't seem to help all that much.  Putting her on a diet of mainly TC Timothy balance cubes slowed gut sounds a lot, but she still had loose stools occasionally.  I tried Forco and Ration Plus, but they didn't seem to help.  I used her loose stools as one symptom for increasing pergolide.  Last fall I started her on amino acids (yellow pea powder) and she hasn't had a loose stool since-not even when I think she needs a pergolide increase.
--
Helen, Josie and Kyra
May 2016
Brunswick, VT, USA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Josie 
Josie's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22630 
Kyra's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1370


Re: Recent Bloods done

Tori & Floss
 

Jaini thank you very much!
I will certainly get her tested again late March.
Cheers Tori
--
Tori

 

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Floss 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347

 

 

 


Re: Thyro L

 

Hi, Cindy - Primary hypothyroidism in horses is *extremely* rare.  "Euthyroid sick syndrome", a term for a thyroid gland that can function normally, but due to illness or other factors is fairly common:  Euthyroid sick syndrome is a condition in which serum levels of thyroid hormones are low in clinically euthyroid patients with nonthyroidal systemic illness. Diagnosis is based on excluding hypothyroidism. Treatment is directed toward the underlying illness; thyroid hormone replacement is not indicated.  (from Merck https://www.merckmanuals.com/en-ca/professional/endocrine-and-metabolic-disorders/thyroid-disorders/euthyroid-sick-syndrome  )

Much more commonly in our horses is just a low total T4, due to dietary, IR, or PPID issues:   Horses on medications such as bute or Trimethoprim sulfa, with chronic illness such as Cushing's disease, or in racing shape may have falsely decreased total T4. (from the Cornell test interpretations for equine thyroid panels  https://ahdc.vet.cornell.edu/test/list.aspx?Species=Equine&WebDisc=&TstTyp=&Test_Name=thyroid  )

So, you can check thyroid levels to get a baseline, then repeat once diet etc is more under control.  Get the Equine Thyroid panel if concerned: often one finds low total T4, but normal free T4 (which is available to be converted to active T3), and normal T3.

--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Low positive ACTH

 

Hi, Sherry - that's a bit of a tough one.  This time of year, the ACTH should be well within normal; however, the exercise may have had a confounding effect - but how much of an effect, I couldn't say. Added to this is that ACTH will increase as horses age. Gah!

If Scutch were mine, I would hold off on the pergolide for now (but clear this with your vet), then re-test in August, unless you see anything else that gives you an increased index of suspicion.  Alternatively, you could do a TRH stim test, which would give you some pretty clear indication.  If you do decide to start on the pergolide, then start at 0.25 mg, and increase to 0.5 mg after 4 days. Consider using APF during the weaning on period to further prevent the pergolide veil.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Low positive ACTH

Sherry Morse
 
Edited

Soooo I had the vet pull blood for an ACTH level on Scutch because I wanted a baseline - he had an abscess last fall for the first time in his life and what I thought looked like slight rotation on that foot when we x-rayed it (vet said not to be concerned about it).  I know that it was a year of crazy weather and abscesses in horses that never get them and the only other sort of sign is I thought he was fuzzier than he's been.  Anyway, somewhat long story short his ACTH came back at 48 (from Cornell).  I haven't actually talked to the vet yet but she left a message suggesting starting him on .5mg and retesting in 6 months.  
 
So my question is (and of course I did a search of the archives and couldn't really find an answer) - with being that slightly over normal would .25mg be a better place to start (my plan would be to retest in 6 - 8 weeks, not 6 months) and then go up to .5 if needed?  
 
Secondary question would be that I know we say 'no significant exercise for 48 hours prior to the blood draw'.  We did about an hour of ring work - including 30 minutes of trotting/cantering - about 36 hours prior to the blood being pulled.  I wouldn't consider that significant but in the overall scheme of things is that something that could have affected the result that much?
 
Thanks for the extra brain cells and I'll get a case history up for him shortly.
 
 
 
 

 


Re: Recent Bloods done

 

There is a typo in the above post: 17 pmol/L should read 17 pg/mL.  Oops! Different units, different normals. 

Thanks, Lavinia - that's what I love about this group: we all watch each others' backs.
--
Jaini Clougher (BSc, BVSc)
Merlin (over the bridge), Maggie, Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, BC 09
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Prascend in the water bucket?

Donna Coughlin
 

Prascend dissolves almost instantly in water, a bit faster in lukewarm water. So instead of bothering with a pill crusher, you could dissolve and top the feed with the Prascend "tea." I would only worry that somehow it wouldn't all be consumed. I dissolve 3.5 Prascend tablets in a 6 ml syringe filled with about 4 ml water and syringe it in, followed by a peanut for good measure!



--

Donna Coughlin, Duke, Robin Goodfellow, Ariel Max and Obi over the Rainbow Bridge (5/17)


CT 2009

 

 


Re: Thyro L

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Does the group recommend checking thyroid levels?

Cindy
Denton, Texas
Joined 2/19, but I was a member of the old group years ago.


Feeding frequency

Cheryl Oickle
 

i have been feeding hay in three small meals daily..7 12 and 6., often spread through out her paddock in small piles to encourage movement or in a one inch hole haynet if weather torrentially raining.   I board, and it’s often difficult to arrange the noon feed.  She has stabilized nicely on the analysed hay and I am redoin g blood work in late March. What is everyone’s experiences to feed twice daily instead? I have seen conflicting information on insulin levels if too long without hay.  At present she goes all night without feed as her last one is at 6pm., she is no worse for wear and 
-- this has been the routine at barns everywhere in this area.   jewel cannot have free choice, she has no full switch
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Thyro L

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 


Hello Barhaug,

Welcome to the group! 

Sorry your mare is having these issues. You are posting fine, it's just that your first post is always moderated so it may take a bit of time to appear. From now on, all your posts will go thru automatically.

Whether Thyro-L works or not depends on why you are administering it. It does NOT help IR. If a horse is overweight and feeding it the proper amount of food for its ideal weight (plus exercise, when able) does not lead to weight loss, sometimes it can be temporarily helpful to add thyro-L to jump-start weight loss but this is being accomplished by making the horse intentionally hyperthyroid. ECIR does  not recommend this as you are creating another "disease" to get weight loss.The body will adjust to this by reducing the amount of thyroid hormone produced to compensate and bring the levels back down into the normal range so if you do this then decide to stop supplementing the thyro-L, it will need to be weaned off slowly to allow the body to restart its own production.

The best thing you can do for now is to put your mare on the emergency diet (specifics below under DIET). NO starvation as that will only backfire by making her metabolism go into hyper-conservation mode and make weight loss even harder. Feed her either 2% of her ideal weight or 1.5% of her current weight  - whichever is the larger amount - in total safe food per day, so no less than 18.75lbs per day. Specifics are in the DIET section below.

We are going to need more info to be able to provide more specific suggestions for you so please let us know as soon as you are able to get her Case History filled out and up (links below). Pictures of her feet would also be great (info in TRIM section below). The Glycocemic EQ is a good product but is only helpful if your overall diet needs more of the minerals it supplies - it's not a magic bullet. If the weather temps have suddenly dropped, there is a possibility that is part of the problem as that will push insulin up. Dormant grass can be quite high in sugar as well so it may be that your girl was teetering on the edge of a laminitis episode and the "perfect storm" of things happened to push her over the edge. Because third cutting hay is made late in the season, it could be higher in sugar+starch than an IR horse can handle. That your mare has had issues a couple of times in the fall is also a red flag for possible PPID (Cushings) being a part of the problem. Has she ever been tested for this or specifically for IR? Just being overweight does not mean she is IR - it just means she takes in more calories than she burns off.

IR-induced laminitis is not an inflammatory condition so NSAIDs (banamine is one) won't help.

The rest of this message contains our Official Welcome. It contains a ton of information so you might find it helpful to store it somewhere easy to access for future reference.


The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

In order to help you and your equine quickly and effectively, we need you to explain your equine's situation by following the instructions you were sent upon joining. Your completed case history form and ECIR Signature will save days of back and forth questions. If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. Follow the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up and then upload your case history. If you have any trouble, just post a message or email the case history group explaining specifically where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. You can set up an automatic signature so you don't have to remember to do it. 

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.
If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.


--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Split peas- as a clicker treat, how much is too much?

Maria Duran
 

The link Dr. Kellon sent says 1.5%. Pea protein is about 7.6%. Is not possible that feedipedia is based on pea protein instead of split peas?
--
María Durán Navarro
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain) 


Re: Diagnostic testing for EMS, EC, and hypothyroidism

Jackie W
 

I am also following this conversation. After a few years of doing the standard blood draw for glucose and insulin on my IR pony, my vet now says the new information out recommends to do the oral sugar test because it is more accurate.  I objected, but he said yep, that's the right protocol and my (probably uncompensated) IR pony should be fine because it's a small amount of the type of sugar that shouldn't cause problems. So, rather than checking bloodwise to see if we're doing better with all the diet changes, I'll probably continue to just assume she's not (she still has fat-pads). Additionally, the price of ACTH is $200 and apparently Cornell changed their pricing so it doesn't add in any other checks with it now.
--
Jackie and Megan
Palm Bay, FL
Joined March 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jackie%20and%20Megan

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