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Possible new safe feed to add to ECIR LIST

Suzanne and Pilgrim
 

Suzanne and Pilgrim
Joined March 2019
Winnipeg, Manitoba
Canada

I was searching online for some suitable feed for my horse that has high normal glucose levels. 

I stumbled upon a company that provided me with its analysis of ingredients. The company in question is Alfa -Tec. 
I thought I should post the info and get your opinions about it before purchasing any. Not knowing a lot yet, it looked ok to me. But wanting to confirm. 

Is there a way I can post photos of the full analyses they provided me for everyone to see?
Sorry...have not yet had a chance to create Pilgrim’s profile

Suzanne




 
 






Re: syringe mixture

 

Welcome m2einerson!
Since you are a new member to this group can I assume that you have a horse with issues like laminitis, insulin resistance or Cushings? Your first post was a helpful tip for another member (thank you for that). I am going to go ahead and attach our new member information packet below. We'd like to find out what brought you to our group. If you do have a horse, pony, donkey, etc that you want to help and get advice for then let us know. We ask that you follow the steps that were sent to you when you joined, create a signature with your name, your horse's name and your general location.

Any questions right now? I know that sometimes people have horses in crisis but some new members just are interested in finding out what this group has to offer.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

In order to help you and your equine quickly and effectively, we need you to explain your equine's situation by following the instructions you were sent upon joining. Your completed case history form and ECIR Signature will save days of back and forth questions. If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. Follow the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up and then upload your case history. If you have any trouble, just post a message or email the case history group explaining specifically where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

 

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

 

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. You can set up an automatic signature so you don't have to remember to do it. 

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.
If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Soaking hay and calorie reduction math

Maria Duran
 

Great! Thanks for your answer Dr. Kellon.
--
María Durán Navarro
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain) 


Re: Target still sore

Nancy C
 

Why does your trimmer believe she is so sore for two weeks post trim?

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Coat not growing

Robin
 

Magnus (diagnosed PPID in May last year on Prascend) has always had a lot of hair being a fjord and usually needed clipped several times a year because we live in South Florida. I had him clipped in early February before trailering him back down to South Florida from Northern Florida. His coat is now rough and sparse and does not seem to be growing back like it would normally.  He grew some of those long what I call old man hairs but not normal hair. His ACTH level was 20 in late January on 1.25 mg of Prascend. I need to update my case history which has kind of gone astray with selling my farm and two moves in the past 6 months or so. I will try to update his case history as soon as I can but it is on my other computer up in Ocala that I didn't bring down here. Basically  he is on a mature Timothy hay, a small amount of Triple crown Lite just enough to eat what supplements he will eat, Vit  E and Selenium, Magnesium, perfect balance electrolytes, biotin and true sweat. Since starting Prascend, he refuses to eat any other balancer type vitamin/mineral supplements--I have tried multiple kinds including those from Uckele. I am trying to restart him on ground flax which he also refused to eat. I have tried CocoSoya as well as some of the sugar-free syrups with limited success to try and get him to eat supplements. Any ideas about what could be wrong? He just had CBC with diff and CMP that were basically unremarkable. His next ACTH level is scheduled for April. He is now at a boarding barn so there are some limits as to what management changes I can institute. 
--
Robin
Joined May 21, 2018
Location: Sanibel, Island / Southwest Florida
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robin%20and%20Magnus


Support ECIR through AmazonSmile

Paula Hancock
 

Another way to support ECIR:

Your charity, Equine Cushings And Insulin Resistance Group Inc, recently received a quarterly donation of $118.66 thanks to customers shopping at smile.amazon.com.

To date, AmazonSmile has donated a total of:

  • $959.81 to Equine Cushings And Insulin Resistance Group Inc
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (ir/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Remy

 


Re: Bagged Feed - Hoffman's BalanceIR

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

WSC should be equal to or higher than ESC so the numbers are fine but almost look too low unless there are an awful lot of oat hulls in there. The 30% fiber though suggest it might be real. Could you get a copy of an actual analysis?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Soaking hay and calorie reduction math

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I agree an effect on controlling IR is more likely to be significant than the calorie reduction.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Is the I.R. Calculator results accurate after the Oral Sugar test?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You can't use the calculator for the post Karo values. What were the fasted numbers?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Target still sore

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I think it's worth trying Jiaogulan, at least for two or three weeks.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Is the I.R. Calculator results accurate after the Oral Sugar test?

padmavideo@...
 

 Hello!
 I have a question regarding the I.R. calculator. Is it appropriate to calculate values after the Oral sugar test (OST)? The reason I ask is that I worry that my mare might have low grade laminitis...she is foot sore now but important to note she also has navicular.

My vet recently tested her for ACTH (results normal) and EMS using the oral sugar test and submitted the blood work to Cornell lab. All the results are normal according to Cornell. Glucose 114, Insulin 60 minutes post Oral Sugar Test 32.38, Leptin baseline 5.86  Everything fell within the reference range for normal.


BUT according to the I.R. calculator she is severely uncompensated I.R. --- Jaini answered my initial email saying "The IR calculator is based on insulin production when the horse is on forage, no grain in the last 6 hours or so, but not fasted" she also suggested that I join the group and post the question for Dr. Kellon. So does that mean I should disregard the results from the IR calculator considering my horse had fasted for 12 hours (no hay, no grain) then she was administered Kiro syrup, then 60 minutes later we did the blood work.

Thanks so much for all you do for horses!

Kathryn


Re: Please advise with recent Cushing's progression

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The three main possible explanations are, in no order or likelihood:

- dose is too low
- drug is not full potency
- drug is not being consumed totally

Also possible

- lab result is an error

The last is much less likely because your symptoms are aligning.

One other possibility, which has **not** been confirmed by research, is that since she's a mare the seasonal transition in ovarian activity might be affecting her control. We do see a few cases of March laminitis every year but haven't correlated it with ACTH and her previous March ACTH hasn't been remarkable although PPID can progress with time. You could just give it a few weeks to see if the udder swelling resolves on its own, or augment the pergolide with Vitex agnus-castus which may not change the ACTH but does work on the udder swelling.

I could give you a link for potency testing of the pergolide but last price I know (2017) was $200. Another option would be to put her on an equivalent dose of Prascend for 3 days and retest ACTH.

If the problem is that the dose is too low it likely means her condition is progressing rapidly so you want to get it under control sooner rather than later.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Rasberry Leaves

Paula Hancock
 

On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 01:06 PM, Sherry Hite wrote:
for a very hormonal and nervous horse (swollen udder, almost constant lactation) that showed slight foot soreness end of October 2017 when grass started growing.  She has been on a dry lot and tight diet since.  Results of testing November 2017  were:  ACTH - 33.1 pg/mL, Glucose - 94, Insulin 48.99 ulU/mL.
Hi Sherry,
It might be prudent to do a TRH stim test for PPID, given her insulin resistance status in November was uncompensated/poorly compensated on a tight diet.  Some horses test normal ACTH even during the seasonal rise, but test PPID with the TRH stim test in spring.  Now is a great time to figure that out before this year's seasonal rise and as the TRH stim test is not reliable as we approach the seasonal rise.
 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (ir/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Remy

 


Re: Humphrey Has Joined His Herd Over the Bridge

celestinefarm
 

Lorna, I'm so sorry for you in the loss of your Humphrey and in awe of him in that he graced your farm for almost five decades, and was the patriarch until it was time for him to leave. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Re: Target still sore

bokayarabians@...
 


-- I don't think she is lowering the walls, they just haven't grown, and yes it looks like Target is walking on her soles.The grooves are not deep enough to measure and the tip of the frog is flat with the sole. Right now she is starting to walk a bit better and on her own around her paddock. Trimmer just said at the last trim it was time to take some sole. I heard from her today and she said she doesn't think it is the time to take dead sole if Target is still sore. I just feel so bad for Target having to go through 2 weeks of being sore after each trim and just when she is feeling better it is time to trim again. 
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Humphrey Has Joined His Herd Over the Bridge

valerie puryear
 

Lorna, What a lucky boy Humphrey was! Obviously you loved him and you gave him a rich life full of friendships. I am so sorry for the loss of your beloved Humphrey,
 I wish I had known him. Run free and healthy Humphrey!
--
Valerie and Matera
Aug 2018
Athens, GA, USA
Case History 
Photo Album
Ω


Soaking hay and calorie reduction math

Maria Duran
 

Hi all!

For and average hay at 1.8 Mcal/kg and 7% ESC, 

The hay is providing 70 g of sugars per kg, so 700 g daily for a 500 kg horse eating hay at 2% BW. If soaking the hay for 1 hour in cold water reduces sugars at about a 30% "average", this would mean 210 g of sugars less in the total daily intake.

If 1g sugar= 4 calories, then 210x4= 840 calories less daily from soaking the hay. and 4,6 % reduction in the total calories coming from hay. 

Is this right?

Regarding only calories seems like this equals to feeding the horse a bit less than 0.5 kg of hay, but what I can see (only in one horse) is that the horse loses weight much more easily, so I guess controling insulin spikes regulates lipogenic action of insulin. Could this be true?

--
María Durán Navarro
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain) 


Bagged Feed - Hoffman's BalanceIR

StaceyMaloney
 

Hey team, 

 

I couldn't find this one in the files section. I contacted the rep who said their Starch is 2.6% and the WSC is 1.7% but they don't test the ESC? How does the WCS stack up against it and from this info can it be determined to be safe for our compromised horses? Client wants to feed it as a carrier for their minerals. 

Stacey


Re: IR and “seizure-like” activity related??

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

When did this happen compared to when she ate her Metformin?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Please advise with recent Cushing's progression

Angelika Busi
 

Thank you, Bonnie, for your quick reply. I appreciate your feedback.
What bothers me is the quick increase of her ACTH values, despite my increase of her pergolide dosage during a time when the values naturally are supposed to be lower. That's why I had hoped that one of the moderators may have some advice.

Angelika and Qiqi & Apollo

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angelika%20and%20Qiqi%20-%20Apollo/Quqi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Angelika%20and%20Qiqi%20-%20Apollo/Apollo

NE Illinois

September 15

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