Date   

Re: Pergolide Mesylate liquid oil storage?

Pamela Swartz
 

I, too would like to change from capsules to the oil and when I talked to PHP they said it doesn’t need to be refrigerated and is just as stable as capsules. They said the capsules don’t need to be stored in the refrigerator as well. I only got 2 months of this prescription dose and will get another 2 months now as well, so maybe storage isn’t such an issue if it’s a shorter time? And it was cold in the tack room!

Could you post your findings re: storage? I’m heading out the door too! 

Thank you! 
--
Pamela Swartz/Vinda, the most awesome Icelandic
Nevada City, CA


Re: Laminitis again

Nancy C
 

Hi Von

It's not fun.  We know.  Most of us have been where you are.  The good news is you are on the right path and it is so gratifying when you start to see improvement.  Your mare will thank you.

Hang in there. Take it a day at a time.  Make your changes.  Look for ways to make more.  It will come.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Update Your Information PLEASE! - Sun, 04/07/2019 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Update Your Information PLEASE!

When:
Sunday, 7 April 2019

Description:

Update Your Information

Case histories not only aid in monitoring and effectively managing your equine but a well documented and up to date case history is invaluable in an emergency. It also demonstrates to any veterinary or hoof care professional viewing it, either on line or live at the stable, that you are dedicated to an evidence-based health program for your equine’s welfare.  Changes in food amounts, medication, dosages, supplements, over time show not just that you are serious about your equine's health but patterns that confirm or deny the ECIR protocols.  

 

Please don't wait until you need help, update your case history today so if an emergency crops up next week, you can get support quickly and need only concentrate on helping your horse.  

 
While you are thinking about updating don't forget the databases:
Pergolide Dosage Database 
Enter your information, Update your entry, View your entry (you may need to request access) or View the statistics.   

Regional Members Database  - A local listing of members willing to help/meet/share resources with other ECIR members.

Enter your contact information, Update your entry or View the database. 

 

CTB Database Database for equines on both Chaste Tree Berry and Pergolide

Enter your information, Update your entry or View the database (you may need to request access).

 

Hoof Care Professionals List - Find member recommended hoof care professionals in your area.

Enter your hoof care professional,  View the Hoof Care Professionals List.

 

International Safe Feed Sources 

Enter your local storeUpdate an entry, or View the International Safe Feeds Sources. 

 

Veterinarians and Clinics List - Find member recommended vets or clinics in your area

Enter your veterinarianView the Veterinarians and Clinics List

 

ECIR Polls - collecting information to find patterns that will help shape future equine management protocols. 
See the polls.
 


Thank you for your cooperation. 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Laminitis again

Von Schwen <vonschwen@...>
 

Hi- Laminitis again-my horse was fine yesterday but barn did switchef to a different grass hay and she’s had a total of about 12 pounds six last night and six this morning. When I got there today all 4 feet were Ouchi- no heat , she was walking OK but uncomfortable. I spoke with the barn owner and they are going to switch her back to the other hay that’s in the barn that she was doing fine on.   Large garage door has been broken so they haven’t been able to get a tractor in to move the other hay down. I did soak her hay for 30 minutes in hot water and rinsed it so hopefully that will help And hopefully I caught it soon enough. This is so difficult. I feel so bad for my mare.
 Thank you,
--
Von Schwen
April 2019
USA


Re: Sore loins, spookiness and hormone testing

hdavis
 

Hello Dr. Kellon!

thanks for the info and commenting!  I greatly appreciate your feedback. I have tried a CTB product from Herbs for Horses in Canada but never could get her up to the recommended dose as per the prodcut label as she wouldn’t eat that much. According to the label it says to give 3 - 15 gram scoops a day for 10 days and then switches to a lower maintenance dose.  

Here is the link to the product I was using. 
https://www.horseherbs.com/products/cushing-s-care

I took her off of it about 2 months ago as was trying to get set up for testing her hormones.  Now that we have collected for that I will put her back on but would appreciate your comments on dosing.

Someone also mentioned vitex can be found at human health stores and was wondering if it was maybe better to use for her?  Thoughts?  I would think more expensive but maybe it is more concentrated as well?

I am hoping to ride her now more and more now and if she seems sensitive in her flanks and loins should I give her a small dose of an NSAID?  I have bute and previcox on hand.  I will start with adding back in the CRB and see if that helps.  As well as I am going to continue with the acupuncture as perhaps that helped relieve some ovarian pain issues as well.

Thanks in advance!

oh and I updated her case history although not much changed on it other than more details of her symptoms, IR test results and using OTDH Complete vibes to give her supps and minerals with now instead of beet pulp. 





--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Re: Pergolide Mesylate liquid oil storage?

 

Thank you Lorna.  I will try again.  
--
Kim Lee Gillette and Malachi
North West PA, USA
Dec 2010
Case History
Photo Album


Re: Pergolide Mesylate liquid oil storage?

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Kim,

If you search the message archives using pergolide oil, you'll  find a number of posts,some relating to PHP, and by people using the oil.
Sorry,I'm  dashing,or I'd  copy the message numbers for you.

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Pergolide Mesylate liquid oil storage?

 

It has been a while and it always seems to be a weekend and I have looked in the files.  I just need to know about the storage of the Pergolide Mesylate liquid oil.  Is it supposed to be kept in the refrigerator door like the capsules?  We just changed from the capsules to the oil and it has arrived today and I have read everything that came from Pet Health Pharmacy and cannot find anything about storage.  

Also, looking for information on the stability of this liquid pergolide.  On the bottle, they give it five months, but no storage recommendations.  

Thank you for help.
--
Kim Lee Gillette and Malachi
North West PA, USA
Dec 2010
Case History
Photo Album


Re: Recently Diagnosed PPID ~ High ACTH(Other factors?)

Tanna
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon

I really appreciate you taking the time to read my entire post and your reassurance. 

In my panicked research I was under the impression that ACTH can be influenced by the pars intermedia (in the case of PPID horses) while the pars distalis can also contribute to ACTH in various situations. This was referenced at this link http://www.thelaminitissite.org/ppid-faq/does-a-high-acth-result-mean-my-horse-has-ppid and in some medical publications I sifted through. 😩 I was hopeful. This is not the case?

Is there no room to take her off, depending on results, for 10+ days to test again to see if levels go up again without prascend? Ideally it would have been nice to only need to treat her in the fall rise. This 0-60 start is tough. 

For the retest, should I be looking for ACTH to be within the range of 2-10, in order to gauge the effectiveness of the Prascend, or a specific lower range? Do normal horses have a somewhat higher range than they might have in their youth? I don't want to over medicate or have no room to increase the dosage at a later date or go broke. 😯

My farrier felt that a true laminitic episode would have presented with blood less specific to just the toe area and should have involved the entire hoof. I watch for signs of shifted weight, rings, heat et all and there have been none. I do agree it is suspicious. I will be watching for a similar timeline following this bug as she had in the fall and currently she does have a bruise on the wall (outside) of her left front.

Re: hindend. She has bone spavin in both hocks and fibrotic myopathy in her left hind. Her stride is slightly stilted at the last 5-10% of her range of motion so her hind end is slightly compromised in general. 

I like that you said "early PPID". I understand the numbers would be much higher in autumn but with her lack of clinical signs would you consider that her numbers present as mild PPID at this point? Typical? A bit alarming?

Just trying to provide a bit more info and thank you again! 

Tanna


Re: Recently Diagnosed PPID ~ High ACTH(Other factors?)

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 
Edited

On Sat, Apr 6, 2019 at 04:36 PM, Tanna wrote:
Is is possible her condition at the time of testing could have produced a false positive/high?
How will the Prascend impact the re-test? 
Should I not up her dose to 1 pill and wait for the results of retest (there would be a one week overlap)
Will it be safe to take her off the Prascend if the test results don't back up the need for treatment? 
How will I now any of this... what do I do... ? 
First, I want to assure you that PPID does not mean you will have less time with your mare. When correctly monitored and treated, PPID horses typically die from things unrelated to their PPID.

Long story short on the first question, none of that would give you a false positive. In fact, the delay in testing could mean the true number is higher.

If the Prascend dose is adequate, the retest will be lower. Prascend does not interfere with baseline ACTH that is not related to PPID.

Talk to your vet but it doesn't sound like there is any pressing reason to increase to 1 mg before getting results of the 0.5 mg test.

You can't take her off Prascend if the test results are normal because you can't tell if it is the Prascend making them normal. This sounds like an accurate diagnosis of an early PPID case. There's no way I can be sure but your lameness issues may have involved a laminitis episode (the blood in the hoof wall is highly suspicious). It's very common for horses to be misdiagnosed as having hind end issues when what they are doing is shifting weight off the front feet.
 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: too aggressive trim

Tucker
 


thank you Dr. Kellon, I will check the scale for accuracy.
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036


Re: Pain Progression - What to Expect?

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Claire

Hope Mom is okay.  I think you are making progress but it honestly is hard to tell

The heels were under run and that is perhaps why they look crushed. it's hard to tell exactly where you are now because of the angle of the camera.

Getting the camera down on the ground with camera lens a perfect perpendicular, 18 inches from the foot, will allow you to see this better.  You want to assess how the heels look relative to the back of the fetlock and leg above. You also want to assess the line of the coronary band and the angle of any new growth coming in on the dorsal (toe) wall. You would see if they are under run with sole shots as well. 

Standing the other leg on an anti-fatigue mat may help you pick her foot up.  I think you've done that in previous pics.  If you can just stand her toe up but leave it on the ground you can get a solid sole shot.  Again the camera lens needs to be perpendicular to the foot. Not sure if yo you'd been guided here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/Hoof-Related-Photo-Instructions

Make sure you get light on what you are shooting.

Relief from pain comes from removing the trigger that caused the laminitis (PPID and/or EMS) and returning the foot to correct physiology.  https://www.ecirhorse.org/realigning-trim.php

Hang in there.  We do know how hard this is. Take it one day at a time. This is a process.  For her to be as good as possible you have to get it all done.  Just not all done today.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Recently Diagnosed PPID ~ High ACTH(Other factors?)

Tanna
 

Good day all, 

I see from archive searches that the last time I was here, with questions regarding my Arabian mare Tula, was in 2008. She was 6 at the time and we'd had a IR scare. Fast forward slightly more than 10 years and she has just now turned 17 and on her 17th birthday was diagnosed with PPID due to ACTH levels showing 42 (I assume to be in pmol/L as we are located in Canada and because my vet referred to a normal range of 2-10). My vet says she is full blow "Cushings" and throughout the week I have been in a state of shock, depression, fear, denial and exhaustion etc. 

I have some questions...eventually. Please bare with me as a provide a bit of history.

Despite the scare many years ago my mare is an easy keeper but shows no consistent signs of IR. If she gets chubby-ish on occasion she can easily be brought back and retains no obvious fat pads. She is fed 1.5 - 2.0% of her body weight in hay, her most significant feeding of the day is via slow feeder hay bag. I feed BP, flax, a ration balancer (All Phase Lite from Lifeline Feeds) and a cup of Cool Fusion (which I will probably remove to be safe). In general she seemed completely fine on this diet with no obvious concerns. She was diagnosed with Juvenile Bone Spavin at 2 years of age and has had joint injections throughout the years, again with no obvious concerns as a result. She is has been barefoot all but a couple months of her 17 years, has had the same bare foot trimmer since she was 3 (is trimmed every 4-6 weeks (max), and while we've had injury ups and downs throughout the years life has progressed. 

Fast forward to October 2018. Several horses in our barn picked up an upper respiratory "bug". Some of the horses required antibiotics. My mare had some funky breathing noises at the canter, developed a bit of a cough, was checked out but required no antibiotics herself. She did have some significantly loose stools for a few days starting on October 19 through to approx the 25th. On the 17th she had a trim, on the 21st she walked in a bit tender footed and didn't move well under saddle. No heat in the feet.

I check her feet for heat and pulse regularly and having some (but never bounding) pulse in 2 or 4 feet occasionally (but not often) has never been unusual for her. She has been occasionally trimmed a touch short = tenderness for a day or two or a slight bit softer after fairly dramatic changes in wet/dry conditions. None of these things have changed or gotten better or worse throughout her lifetime.   

November 12th, I rasped her feet a touch and a found a bit of blood in the white line at the tips of her toes. Both fronts. Had our regular vet out on November 21st. She checked her feet and gave her a Legend shot. Her feet checked out fine, no heat, no tenderness. We noticed that she had some obvious bruising on the outside wall of both fronts only at the front. My mare has a bit of dainty paw which has dug through a 2 inch stall mat in the past and she seems to occasionally paw on her own foot (if that makes any sense... I'm trying to rationalize my denial). While her feet were fine at this time the vet thought it was possible she could have had an incident and she suggested that we might consider testing her ACTH levels as she fit the age profile. We did not do so at the time. 

February 2nd she had a chiropractic adjustment that I would consider a bit of disaster. She hadn't been sound since. February 21st, 2019, she had a her first flu/rhino shot in 10 + years. March 15th (a Friday) we got a flu/rhino booster and a she had another chiropractic adjustment. The vet who gave her the booster was on hand and she required tranq for the adjustment. She was extremely stressed. No I will never have her treated in that manner again.... The following Tuesday she came into the barn in some respiratory distress (flared nostrils, shallow breathing, rate 23 per min) and our regular vet came to see her. The vet's immediate concern was heat intolerance which she said could be related to Cushings/PPID. In any event, there was some mucus in her right lung, her stools were a touch soft, and we trotted her out until she coughed. My vet pointed out that she looked very lame on the left hind. We'd deal with that later but again she has been lame since her chiro adjustment in February. We took blood after trotting her and I treated her with antibiotics and ventipulmin to be safe. We decided that we would put the blood on ice and consider sending for ACTH analysis. The bug passed, I discovered that other horses in the barn also had picked up the same bug, but I decided to have the sample tested for ACTH to be sure that it was safe to do her hock injections.    

On April 2nd the results came back as noted above at 42 (what I assume to be pmol/L. I am in shock. I have done a lot of reading and while I do understand that it is possible for a horse to have no clinical signs of PPID and still have it and I do understand that at her age of 17 it would not be unusual for her to have it but can we not at least have pre-cushings? Geesh. My concern is that in her condition (respiratory distress, upper respiratory something going on, significantly unsound, trotted before her test) and having the blood on ice for a week before sending it might have resulted in a false positive or at the very least a much higher than would be her normal ACTH reading. 

Other than linking the events of October through November to her recent diagnosis of PPID (in hindsight) I don't think this horse shows any of the clinical signs associated with PPID. She started shedding in January, she looks fabulous for her age. 

She has had additional body work done this week and we all but eliminated her lameness on the left hind. It was suspected that the chiro adjustment in February might have put her pelvis/hindend in a state where her sciatic nerve was being aggravated and her hind end was basically in spasm. She is a stoic girl but may have been in some significant pain. 

I have taken the advice of my vet and started her on prascend at one 1/2 pill for two weeks (starting April 2nd) which I am supposed to bump up to 1 pill on the 16th. I have read a lot about Prascend and I understand/accept that it must be used to treat PPID. I am worried about the possibility of her test reading being a false positive or much higher than expected. I am saddened that her numbers show she is full blown cushings/PPID and I just see less time and years with my baby and it's all so terrifying. I worry about giving Prascend if she may not actually require it and setting her up for never being able to function without it. I have advised my vet that I would like to retest her ACTH levels before I bump up her dose to a full pill. My theory is that the Prascend won't have had enough time or strength to alter what could be her more accurate numbers. I am prepared to accept that she does have some degree of PPID and am prepared to treat her if necessary but I want to do what's best for her. Everything I read about Prascend suggests that one would see improvement in clinical signs in a month or so but we have nothing to see, to look for, or expect so I am having a very hard time comprehending the results.  

Is is possible her condition at the time of testing could have produced a false positive/high?
How will the Prascend impact the re-test? 
Should I not up her dose to 1 pill and wait for the results of retest (there would be a one week overlap)
Will it be safe to take her off the Prascend if the test results don't back up the need for treatment? 
How will I now any of this... what do I do... ? 

Thank you for listening, reading. I know you all know where my head is at. <3 

Tanna (on behalf of my fur baby Tula)

   

 

 


Re: Trimming Questions and Advice

Maria Duran
 

Just talked to Plutón's owner. She reports he has lost some weight and today was walking fine without boots and feeling good They walked for almost an hour
Amazing!
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Re: Sore loins, spookiness and hormone testing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

This "muscle" is actually fat or a hunch in how she is carrying her spine due to the loin pain.  See this https://wp.me/p2WBdh-Fb .
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Trimming Questions and Advice

Maria Duran
 

I have just uploaded the pics from 2018-12-18 for LF and RF, sole and lateral view.

If you could see them and compare it to the related ones on 2019-03-30.... it is awesome how fast they changed for the worst when all was improving before.

In the LF lateral view the "metabolic rings" can be seen and how the hoof capsule has rotated.

New Xrays are coming soon.

He also got fat again when we stopped soaking the hay.

Thank you very much in advance.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Trim Advice Protocol April 2019

Nancy C
 

For back ground about this post, please see: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/228968

The ECIR Group wants to help metabolic equines by showing members usable skills to make their own assessment of hoof health, with or without a hoof care provider.
 
First-time, critical mark-ups may be given for free to new members with laminitic metabolic horses in their care, if the steps below are followed.
 
Going forward with your case, ECIR volunteers will do their best to help you continue to learn about hoof care by assessing where you are in the process from time to time. Each subsequent set of mark-ups be as a private consult and incur a fee. Members may seek, at no cost, “comments only” help from other experienced members on the forum.
 
Remember, our goal is to help caregivers learn how to assess what is needed with or as your own hoof pro. While it may feel like a huge learning curve at first, understanding the foot is hands down the best way to get where you need to go for the comfort and health of your horse.
 
PLEASE NOTE: Requests for first-time mark-ups and follow-up narratives will be acknowledged on groups.io forum only, and require a minimum three-day notice with the following already in place:
 
1. Acceptable photos as described in the ECIR Wiki: You will be asked to retake them, so for your horse’s sake, please take the time to get them right the first time. Go here for instructions for taking acceptable hoof photos.
 
2. Proper identification of your photos: Identification of individual hooves can be as simple as marking LF, RF, LH or RH with a magic marker on the appropriate hoof before snapping the shots or on your digital photo. Please do not use items that will block any of the foot, fetlock, or leg. Photos must be dated and formatted properly so they remain grouped together in the album. See: Naming Hoof Photos
 
3.  Radiographs: Initial radiographs are an essential ingredient to a good outcome. When you are going to have radiographs done, here are some tips on making the most of your investment. While initial rads are highly recommended, not having them won’t prevent you from getting assistance.

If your equine has been diagnosed with PPID or EMS, your photos go in Your Photo Album located in the case history photo section. Once you have posted and correctly named your photos, post a message in the main ECIR asking for evaluation.
 
If your equine does not have PPID or EMS, your photos go in ECHoof. This avenue is provided as a courtesy for members who wish to discuss foot issues other than metabolic. Upon joining you will be sent instructions on how to get your photos uploaded.

The ECIR Group Support Team
April 2019
 
Additional Resources for learning the foot.pdf

You may also find this document in the Wiki.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Sore loins, spookiness and hormone testing

hdavis
 


Re: Mentioning Professionals by Name

Maggie
 

Hi Lorraine,

Welcome to the group!   Dr Kellon's message about not mentioning professionals by name was a reminder message for everyone, not directed specifically at you.  I see that you just joined in March and this is your first post, so I am providing you with our New Member Welcome in this message:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/234174
It's packed full of information that you may not have read yet so take some time to get familiar with it and get back to us with any questions you might have!  If you horse is in crisis, let us know right away!  We're here to help you!
--
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
ECIR Moderator/Primary Response


Re: Sore loins, spookiness and hormone testing

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Heather,


I just went to Rio's CH to see if there was anything that might be hiding there.
Can you update it For us?

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 

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