Date   

Re: New Pics and X-rays uploaded for Plutón.

Maria Duran
 

Hi Kath,

I am glad that Pluton´s pics are of help for you. I hope Lavinia can get to you and Micky soon, I can only say "ouch" when I see his pics.

I have noticed that Pluton´s pics also need some improvement. We will work on that for the next session.

For the comparative pics, Laura (Pluton´s owner) can do it with her phone, but I have to do it with photoshop for example because my phone doesn´t allow that. It is old school haha.

I have seen your pics and are not bad, but if you allow me, I believe I can give you some tips. It is important (I know you know) because at the end all what Lavinia has to work with are the pics we take and all her responsabiliy and time will depend on our work. Because pics are 2 Dimension, it is easy to get confused. When you have a doubt in one picture, you can look at it in another one in a different angle and then you can get a better idea, this way sometimes pics complement each other even if the purpose is a different one.

Looking at your pics I would work on:

- Getting a sharp image as some are blurry and structures are not well differenciated.
- In the sole ones, make sure the camera is perfectly parallel to the sole, now it is tipped forward and this makes very difficult to see the white line and heels, frog, bars, etc get distorted so at the end you make a huge effort but the angle is not correct to allow judgement. Also in the sole ones make sure you are not taking the pic from above but get on you knees a bit so that the camera is at sole height.
- Take the sole plane pics from the heels as if you were holding the leg not at the side, because what needs to be seen is the heel height alignment and alignment of quarter walls and toe bevel, if you take sole plane 1.
- In lateral pics go down to the ground literally (lie down if needed) and point your camera to the center of the hoof wall, now the perspective is taken from above (only in some, others are good) and that changes the angle that is supposed to be seen. Make sure you are placed in the middle of the hoof not a bit to the toe area or a bit to the heel area. (this time Plutón´s lateral pic is wrong. I noticed it too late)

You are doing a great job! 

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Chinese Herbs - Advice from Dr. Kellon Requested

hdavis
 

Hello,

I have a vet who is doing acupuncture and chiro on Riosa to try to help with here flank and loin soreness and she has been doing some research on some herbs to help with her issues.  She would like to try her on these herbs. I know nothing about them and would really like some advice from Dr. Kellon on these.  I am not sure if they would affect her IR or do any good for her.  We are still waiting on hormone test results as well.

here are the herbs:

  Tao Hong Si Wu, and is a combination herbal medication. 
   
Ophiopogon

Any thoughts on these Dr. Kellon.

Thanks!


--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Re: Worming ppid horses

 

Many years ago I used Strongid C regularly.  And then it was ‘determined’ that such a deworming program would lead to resistance.  I found a source that would sell me tubs in quantity for a significant discount.  We have a large number of empty green Strongid pails now that get used around the farm.  I’ve haunted ebay for deals (dosing syringes) so that’s a good approach as well.  Funny that it came from Smartpak.  Was the ‘sell by’ date looming?
--
Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
July 2012

Logo's Case History: 
 


Re: New Pics and X-rays uploaded for Plutón.

Kath Chase
 

i think Maria has done a fantastic Job with photos, was just Looking through Plutons album to get ideas,  for better pictures, i think i know where i have been going wrong now. i have put some close up views in  Mickys  album,   but thinking they still need improvement, if Lavinia could have a look at mickys album and get back to me  would be very much appreciated.  i love the comparitive photos Maria, Great Idea with the dates and comparisons. i just need to work out how to do it and upload comparisons.
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Re: Hay questions - Soaking and fermentation in the hot/humid summer

Maria Duran
 

Hi Diana, 

Those numbers mean Sample 2 is the original hay and Sample 1 is the same hay soaked?

If this is right, do anyone know if beta glucans and pectin in NFC fraction can be diluted in water as well?

I also believe your hay might be fermenting. Soaking in hay nets is much more easy but I have found that need to take care of things like not putting too much hay on them because then the water doesn't reach the center of the hay and hay doesn't get as easily soaked and rinsed as when it is loose in the water. Also it will not get dried in the core as easily, running the risk of fermentation  in hot weather and another thing to take into account is that if holes of the hay nets are small it gets difficult for the horse to get the hay because stems and leaves don't slip over each other the same way they do when it is dry. It becames difficult to eat for some horses.

If those are your results after and before soaking, seems like you are doing a great job at reducing sugars.

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Re: New Pics and X-rays uploaded for Plutón.

Maria Duran
 

Thank you so much Lavinia, I would have never thought about it without you and Dr. Kellon pointing this out for me. It is absolutely common sense.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Re: Trim Advice Protocol - Wed, 04/17/2019 #cal-notice

Maria Duran
 

Absolutely fair! Thanks for all the work to help us.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

_._,_._,_


Micky still waiting response

Kath Chase
 

Hi, understand you are all very busy, but am  still patiently  waiting on response. I have put up more photos in album and updated case history have put updates to what is now.  I am going to hospital on the 30.4.2019 and need advice for mickys next trim. am still waiting on response from Lavinia Re private consult.

also Dr K has suggested i try metaformin, Will micky lose more weight on this? i can currently count his ribs?
--
Kath Chase & Micky
Yinnar Vic Australia
July 2017
Micky's Case History
Micky's Photos


Trim Advice Protocol - Wed, 04/17/2019 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Trim Advice Protocol

When:
Wednesday, 17 April 2019

Description:
The ECIR Group wants to help metabolic equines by showing members usable skills to make their own assessment of hoof health, with or without a hoof care provider.
 
First-time, critical mark-ups may be given for free to new members with laminitic metabolic horses in their care, if the steps below are followed.
 
Going forward with your case, ECIR volunteers will do their best to help you continue to learn about hoof care by assessing where you are in the process from time to time. Each subsequent set of mark-ups be as a private consult and incur a fee. Members may seek, at no cost, “comments only” help from other experienced members on the forum.
 
Remember, our goal is to help caregivers learn how to assess what is needed with or as your own hoof pro. While it may feel like a huge learning curve at first, understanding the foot is hands down the best way to get where you need to go for the comfort and health of your horse.
 
PLEASE NOTE: Requests for first-time mark-ups and follow-up narratives will be acknowledged on groups.io forum only, and require a minimum three-day notice with the following already in place:
 
1. Acceptable photos as described in the ECIR Wiki: You will be asked to retake them, so for your horse’s sake, please take the time to get them right the first time. Go here for instructions for taking acceptable hoof photos.
 
2. Proper identification of your photos: Identification of individual hooves can be as simple as marking LF, RF, LH or RH with a magic marker on the appropriate hoof before snapping the shots or on your digital photo. Please do not use items that will block any of the foot, fetlock, or leg. Photos must be dated and formatted properly so they remain grouped together in the album. See: Naming Hoof Photos
 
3.  Radiographs: Initial radiographs are an essential ingredient to a good outcome. When you are going to have radiographs done, here are some tips on making the most of your investment. While initial rads are highly recommended, not having them won’t prevent you from getting assistance.

If your equine has been diagnosed with PPID or EMS, your photos go in Your Photo Album located in the case history photo section. Once you have posted and correctly named your photos, post a message in the main ECIR asking for evaluation.
 
If your equine does not have PPID or EMS, your photos go in ECHoof. This avenue is provided as a courtesy for members who wish to discuss foot issues other than metabolic. Upon joining you will be sent instructions on how to get your photos uploaded.

The ECIR Group Support Team
April 2019
 
Additional Resources for learning the foot.pdf

You may also find this document in the Wiki.


Re: Hay supply from year to year.

Paula Hancock
 

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 01:50 PM, jmc wrote:
can I reasonably expect the same hay, from the same part of the same field (the edges of a certified hay field, which cannot be certified), will have similar values from year to year?
Hi Jodi,
The mineral content may be the same, unless fields were fertilized.  There is no telling what the ESC + starch will be.  It depends more on temperature, sunlight, time of day than on what field it grew on.
 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (ir/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Remy

 


Re: Can cooking flavors be given to horses?

Theresa Schroeder
 

Thanks Lynn, I looked into Beet E Bites but they are a little too rich for my wallet and I'm not convinced peppermint holds enough interest for him. He never takes the same thing twice and that included peppermint.

I tried prunes and he spit it out (no pill in it yet). 
--
Theresa Joined 12/11/18 from Kansas

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Theresa%20and%20Twister

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80189&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0  .


Re: New Pics and X-rays uploaded for Plutón.

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

The 5% angle is an average number, not a "gold standard". It gives you an idea of what is generally found. Using specific, preset angles, toe lengths, heel heights without taking into account what is actually happening with the individual you are assessing is one  of the ways people get into trouble with trims, esp. on feet that aren't healthy.

As Dr. Kellon said, it is the actual correct alignment of the bony column that tells you what is right for that particular individual

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: need admins advice on ACTH results and continuing prascend or not

Paula Hancock
 

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 02:49 AM, vicky monen wrote:
His insulin is a bit on the high end of normal.
Hi Vicky,
What is his insulin level on the last test?  I saw ACTH and glucose, but not the insulin. Is the urination frequency any different?  Definitely need to get the weight down.  He was doing so well in that regard.  With all the hair coat issues, it does suggest PPID.


 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (ir/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Remy

 


Re: Can cooking flavors be given to horses?

Theresa Schroeder
 

Thanks Paula! I'll maybe be able to rotate through those flavors, if he likes them that is, Twister has become so suspicious he wouldn't even give the banana flavor food I made a try. His nickname is Twister Turd for a reason.
--
Theresa Joined 12/11/18 from Kansas

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Theresa%20and%20Twister

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80189&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0  .


Re: Hay questions - Soaking and fermentation in the hot/humid summer

Paula Hancock
 

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 04:47 AM, Diana RL wrote:
Also, here are the results of my hay analysis. 
Hi Diana,
ECIR recommends that ESC + starch equal less than 10%, although some horses need below 8% especially in crisis, and some horses need even lower.  Would you check the numbers for sample 1?  I have never seen ESC less than 5% and that one says 0.5%.
As for hay fermenting, yes it will.  I soak my hay for an hour in cold water in a 15 gallon tub, tip it to dump and let it drain for an hour or whatever time I have, and then shuffle through it to aerate it to prevent fermentation. I will shuffle the hay again at the next feeding and find it really helps avoid fermentation.  If you soak the hay in bags, it may be harder to shuffle, but you can see what you can do.  I found that heat was the main problem.  The high humidity didn't really make a difference.
 
--
Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?and Onyx (IR/PPID)

  and Remy (ir/PPID)

Bucks County, PA, USA

ECIR Primary Response

NRCplus 2011  ECIR 2014 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Remy

 


Re: Hay supply from year to year.

celestinefarm
 

Jodi, that's been my experience. I have been buying hay from the same fields for ten years. While nutrient value stays within the same parameters close enough that I don't need to change my balancing much at all, what can change is the NDF. If you have a very late cutting due to weather constraints, the NDF will go up and make the hay less palatable. That can be a problem if you order well ahead of cutting and baling and are locked into a contract to buy.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History


Hay supply from year to year.

jmc
 

I know weather and other factors will affect hay... but how much?  I found a good hay supplier last year (finally) but wasn't able to test the hay until after delivery (7 tons). I expect the same issue this year... can I reasonably expect the same hay, from the same part of the same field (the edges of a certified hay field, which cannot be certified), will have similar values from year to year?

The analysis from last year's hay is in my files, the NSC was 10.5% and ESC +starch around 6.7%, if I remember correctly.

--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Free choice salt blocks

Cheryl Oickle
 

i do,supplement with  table salt daily but sometimes Jewel snubs her nose at the carrier. I cannot find a block of white salt anywhere and locally it is all red blocks, or Redmond rock or himalyan salt,  all contain iron.  Could I toss a cobalt salt block in her pen with no worry?
--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Hay analysis from Dairy one lab NYC

Von Schwen <vonschwen@...>
 

Hi!
 Diet consist of grass hay, California trace, 1 tablespoon of salt and 1 1/2 ounces of ground flaxseed and probiotic 8–8starch is 1.6 and ESC is 5.6 so we’re good there-but I’m wondering about the trace minerals and the Protein  and wondering if my mare should be on California trace plus instead of just California trace. Protein 10.3, calcium 0.35, phosphorus 0.16, magnesium 0.22, potassium 1.81, sodium 0.428 iron 230, zinc 13, copper 5 and Manganese 27. Thank you so much for helping with this🙏🏻!
--
Von Schwen
April 2019
USA


Confirming IR status

Heidi Wright
 

We did new lab work on Skyler and confirmed his IR status again:

Glucose 88mg/dL
Insulin 17.98 uIU/mL
Glucose:Isulin ratio  4.89
Leptin  11.97 ng/mL
RISQI = .24
MIRG = 8.5

How does one interpret the severity of IR?  

Heidi
--
Heidi Wright
joined Aug 15, 2018
5130 State Route 38
Malta, IL  60150
815-761-2341

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heidi%20and%20Skyler 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69604

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