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Re: Long coat with coarse texture with ACTH <35
Karin & Inky <ksherbin@...>
Alice,
My 23 year old horse is on 6 mg of pergolide and his coat is coarse and his skin is dry. I assume it’s diet related; he stopped eating his supplements. One he did his supplements his coat/skin where much better. At one time I syringed them into him but time doesn’t permit me to do that now since he is boarded so far away. I am moving him to a place that is closer and where he can get more individual attention. Hope your guy’s coat responds to diet changes and he’ll eat what’s good for him.
BTW, Litchfield is so beautiful! I used to drive through it once in awhile when I lived in Simsbury.
Karin & Inky Forest, VA IR/Cushing's July 27, 2015 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Inky https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=834
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Re: Standlee Preminum Western Compressed Timothy Hay
Hi Martha,
Try Google, if you haven't already. -- Lorna in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
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Re: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Wed, 05/08/2019
#cal-notice
I thought I’d read advice here against feeding them dry because of the possibility of choke. Logo has lots of chewing surface still at 30 but has difficulty picking up mash, due to the dental disease with lots of letters that affects the incisors primarily. I would love to be able to feed them dry but I still get plenty of the hard as rocks, shiny variety. As some of mine come in a Triple Crown bag and others in paper (yay!), I thought I might find a difference in texture between the bags but that doesn’t seem to be the case. I put dry ones in Nose-It’s for the ponies and no one seems to have had difficulty with them. On the other hand, Logo pretty much needs his face washed after each meal.
-- Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
July 2012 Logo's Case History:
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Re: New guy Mosey
I would take the first. If he's very sensitive, you can soak the sugar lower. It's difficult to add protein inexpensively and the starch is lower in the first one.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Long coat with coarse texture with ACTH <35
Another suggestion with coats is to do a fecal egg count. If your hay is from last year, try adding 20,000 IU of vitamin A to the diet.
-- Eleanor in PA www.drkellon.com
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Re: Standlee Preminum Western Compressed Timothy Hay
If someone finds a place to buy Nose-Its, could you please share that here. I have two I purchased several years ago. I’ve been wanting to buy more for quite awhile but have not found them available. I’m not sure what’s the story is but it doesn’t seem to be a short term condition.
-- Martha in Vermont
Logo, Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)
July 2012 Logo's Case History:
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ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance - ECIR Group - Equine Cushings and Insulin Resistance updated their cover photo.
#FACTS
main@ECIR.groups.io Integration <main@...>
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Re: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Wed, 05/08/2019
#cal-notice
Hi Nancy,
Thank you so much for letting me know. Cass was so kind leaving me a PM warning me already. You are all awesome in this group. I have never seen this kind of commitment before in any other group. Thanks a lot. -- María Durán Navarro Dec 2017 Madrid (Spain) Plutón´s Case History Plutón´s Photo Album _._,_._,_
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Re: Help Upload Case History
Deb Walker
The last entry in insulin results should say 2019-05-07. I am not sure how to change that. Deb and Scotty Joined May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619
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Re: Help Upload Case History
Deb Walker
Thank you Paula. I appreciate your help. I think I have my case history uploaded, and also started a photo album that includes his most recent x-rays and photos from a couple days ago.
-- Deb and Scotty Joined May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619
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Re: Long coat with coarse texture with ACTH <35
Hi Alice,
Yes this is your first post. Sorry Buffalo isn't feeling great. It can be hard to know what is age versus PPID. You want the ACTH to be more in the mid-range, around 20 ( assuming Cornell was testing lab) to get PPID under better control. It should help with the topline and may help with the depression too, assuming diet is appropriate and balanced, but the coat may or not improve on the correct dose. If the coat doesn't respond after ACTH is lower, you could add Chaste tree berry, which can be beneficial to the coat. Did you also get insulin tested? It would be good to keep tabs on that as well. I am including the ECIR protocol for your convenience. There is a lot of great information and handy links. If you haven't checked out the ECIRhorse.org website, there is lots of great information there. The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time. In order to help you and your equine quickly and effectively, we need you to explain your equine's situation by following the instructions you were sent upon joining. Your completed case history form and ECIR Signature will save days of back and forth questions. If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. Follow the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up and then upload your case history. If you have any trouble, just post a message or email the case history group explaining specifically where you are stuck. Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquette, what goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.
DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each. PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test. *Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols. *Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed.
DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions. No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:
We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. *Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it). The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers. There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals. We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.
TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment. Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.
EXERCISE: The best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.
There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better. We ask all members to sign their first name, general location, date of joining and link to the case history and photo album every time they post. It helps us to find your info faster to answer your questions better. You can set up an automatic signature so you don't have to remember to do it. For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources. Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?) and Onyx (IR/PPID) and Remy (ir/PPID) Bucks County, PA, USA ECIR Moderator NRCplus 2011 ECIR 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
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Long coat with coarse texture with ACTH <35
First post I think. I don't have time to update my case history but Buffalo is on 3 mg pergolide compound. Spring blood tests last month showed his ACTH was 34.5 but his topline has dropped, his winter coat is still on and it feels awful (rough). Ferrier hasn't seen any signs of laminitis since Buff was dx'd. I think he's depressed that he can't go eat the Spring grass. He did have a reaction to a tick bite in March and has had Lyme Disease before. I can't tell what's the Cushing's vs old age vs ?. He's only 25 and Vet said his weight is good.
I guess I should post a photo of his coat but that is the symptom I'm most concerned about. I loved his soft long winter coat. This isn't that it's coarse. Anyone else have "normal" ACTH on 3 mg and a coarse long coat? Thanks. -- ~ Alice Joined July 2018 Litchfield, CT Buffalo's (previous) Case History Photos: Coming soon....
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Re: Help Upload Case History
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 11:03 AM, <Goldilocks1210@...> wrote:
Please help me getting it uploaded to the site, and I will probably need help getting the proper signature as well, and how to best upload pictures and x-rays.Hi Deb, I created an automatic signature for you, as well as created files for your case history and for your photos. You can modify your signature any time by choosing the subscription option on the left on the ECIR Groups site. For now your new signature looks like: Deb and Scotty Joined May 13, 2019 Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619 Please upload the pdf to the case history file and any photos and radiographs to the album. Make sense? Check out the wiki for more helpful information on how to do things: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/home and let us know if you need help. -- Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?) and Onyx (IR/PPID) and Remy (ir/PPID) Bucks County, PA, USA ECIR Moderator NRCplus 2011 ECIR 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
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Re: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Wed, 05/08/2019
#cal-notice
Thanks Lorna!
Aren’t there a couple of brands? Which one do you recommend? -- Laura and Pabatsa in California Feb 2012 Case History https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20a nd%20Pabatsa ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Laura%20and%20Pabatsa ) Pabatsa's Photos https://ecir.groups.io /g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 ( https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1740 )
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Re: New guy Mosey
Michele Einarson
P.S. I’ve added the 2 analyses to my files. thanks for you4 guidance Michele & Mosey Reno, NV, USA https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Michele%20and%20Mosey https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88791
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Re: Argh! Horse got double his pergolide dose. How bad is it?
Jane Fletcher
The horse I look after usually has a double dose one day a week and has for years. He seems quite fine.
I live in an isolated area and stay 110km from home every Friday and sometimes don’t get home til after dark on Saturday or Sunday. It’s so our kids can do sport. There is no one within cooee to give him his capsule so I do the best I can. -- Jane, South East Western Australia Nov 2016 Garnet and Bill
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Re: Newly Inverted ACTH & Insulin & Papilloma virus infection
ferne fedeli
Kirsten,
Thank you so much for your very interesting post about your horse's issues. I sent a copy off to my vet, as I thought she would be interested. I really appreciate your taking the time to give me (us) all that information. -- Ferne Fedeli No. California Regional Members Database Coordinator - see who is near you Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.
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Re: Recommendations for Magnesium Oxide
On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 08:31 AM, Jennifer Smith wrote:
I could use this Triple Crown product in place of hay. My current hay is a grass/clover/alfalfa mix, sugars are apparently good, but protein is high. I think it is too rich for her which may be a part of the issue with slow recovery and lack of weight loss?Hi Jennifer, Do you know what the ESC + starch is for your current hay? How high is the protein? Alfalfa can be a problem. Yes, the timothy balance cubes (TBC) are great! They are guaranteed to be below 10% ESC + starch and are mineral balanced following Dr. Kellon's recommendations. If you replace all of the hay with the TBC, you only need to add salt, flax and vitamin E, no need to do additional mineral balancing. The TBC are also useful as treats and as a carrier for mineral mixes, etc. My horses love to get a Nose it ball with TBC. It keeps them entertained and moving around. -- Paula with Cory (IR & PPID?) and Onyx (IR/PPID) and Remy (ir/PPID) Bucks County, PA, USA ECIR Moderator NRCplus 2011 ECIR 2014 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Cory https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1624 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Paula%20and%20Onyx
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Re: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Wed, 05/08/2019
#cal-notice
Hi Laura,
They are made softer than other cubes,with the exception of some batches,which can be hard. I haven't had bags like that for several years. All I know is that Humphrey was still eating them dry at 47 years of age. My other senior citizens ate them dry as well. -- Lorna in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
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Re: Commercial Feed Analysis Library - Wed, 05/08/2019
#cal-notice
gypsylassie
Hi Laura, the Stabul 1 products don't have any added iron, but the individual ingredients can have iron themselves.
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL
On May 16, 2019, at 4:02 PM, Laura and Pabatsa in CA <lmollrich@...> wrote:
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