Re: A couple of things - diet questions, ACTH off the chart

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Hi Irene,

 Your case history only goes up to 2017 so I don't know what your glucose and insulin numbers are but all the ones in the history are abnormal so even if they look good now you know you have to be careful. I would not feed rice bran:

-  too much fat
- too much starch
- loaded with omega-6 fatty acids.

It has been shown that PPID horses can produce a form of ACTH that is not biologically active. I would suspect that a good bit of his ACTH fits in that category. He does look alert and healthy in his pictures but with PPID body changes. Hay Stretchers are usually fairly low in sugar and starch. Since he's doing well there may be no reason to change.

ODTB only comes in one size but has an extremely long shelf life.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: A couple of things - diet questions, ACTH off the chart

Nancy C

Hi Irene

I think you are doing a great job at managing Logan and it would appear he's telling you he's pretty happy, thank you very much. Glad you are increasing his pergolide.

I would not change to rice bran. The Omega 6 and 3 is not blanced correctly, with higher 6's. IF you need to add omegas, flax is what ECIR recommends as it is the closest omega profile to what he would get on fresh grass.

I'm not seeing his recent labs in your CH.  Just a reminder that "within normal limits" is not necessarily normal.  Please input your labs in to the IR calculator to be sure of his IR status.

I am not aware of small amounts of ODTB Cubes being sold in our area.

Why is he on the thyrol-l? Is he getting salt?  Iodine? (eg., Source or Ocean K)
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines:


Re: spring test result ACTH

Nancy C

Hi Trish

I'm sorry you are going through this.  I assume you have the original of your new update still on your desk top.  What I looked at yesterday appeared to be okay but this was before they were moved to inside your original folders. Pretty please try to upload them again.  I am asking you you to do this so that you maintain control over the folder.  As we have seen today if someone else loads for you, you can't maintain the CH yourself going forward and you lose the ability to acquire all these great new skills. :-)

Again Trish, I'm sorry this is taking so long. I will keep a look out during the day and try to get to actually answer your questions.

Mods -- please let these be once she gets them in her folder. Many thanks for your help in this.

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines:


Re: Alfalfa and IR

Maria Duran

You said you noticed sore feet and weaker white line and soles, right? Wouldn´t that be due to alfalfa? What are your thoughts on this?
Thank you!

De: [] En nombre de Tanna
Enviado el: miércoles, 12 de junio de 2019 0:46
Asunto: Re: [ECIR] Alfalfa and IR

That being said I don't think my experience answers your original question María. I don't know what would have happened if I'd have continued feeding Alfalfa but I don't think her reactions were laminitic. 


April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)

Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 
Hay Analysis I Hay Worksheet

María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album

Re: Updated Case History - Help Please


Hi Deb,

Not sure why it said access denied when you tried to upload the new CH.  May have been a glitch.  Please try again and see what happens.
Maggie, Chancey and Spiral in VA
March 2011
ECIR Moderator/Primary Response

Re: Soaking Hay time

Adriane and Ruais

Is R/S/R rinse/soak/rinse?

I'm soak/rinse. Should I add in pre rinsing?
Joined June 9th, 2019
Brush Prairie, WA

Re: My 13 year old mare has foundered - I have questions

Adriane and Ruais

A series of questions:

Is it normal to still feel a digital pulse two weeks after onset? Ruais is walking. I added videos to a dropbox.

What is a normal palmar angle? Or a range? Google fu is failing me.

I know tight turns are bad for them, but Ruais keeps doing it in her stall or when I walk her through gates. Would she stop if it hurt her or is the damage to her hoof wall/laminae something they don't realize is happening?

How paranoid should I be about her coffin bones dropping more post xray? They were done last Thursday, farrier is coming this Thursday.

Is her comfort level walking an acceptable guideline for slow walks? I need her to lose weight but I'm scared to walk her.

At what point do I stop crying at the drop of a hat?

Joined June 9th, 2019

Re: stablized flax how much to feed

Tori & Floss

Hey Cheryl,
ECIR recommend 3oz in the emergency Diet. 
Not sure if you need to increase it with the longer rides.
Congratulations it must feel awesome being on your girl again :-).
Cheers Tori


December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History




stablized flax how much to feed

Cheryl Oickle

Jewel is currently receiving 1/2 c day. Is this enough for IR and Cushings horse?  
Shes thriving well and back to longer rides, lots of hill work and seems sound and happy. 
Will remain essentially dry lotted....forever  :(

Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

Re: trouble uploading

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Dana,

I deleted the old case histories so you should be able to upload the updated versions now.

Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

Re: spring test result ACTH

Trisha DePietro

Hi all.I just looked at my uploads and none of the info I  added to the original form is on there- I will go back to the drawing board....I'm not sure what I am doing wrong when adding horse updates to the form...then I save the form as a pdf then upload it... Should I start over again with a new folder? Thanks.
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories 
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 

Re: trouble uploading

Maxine McArthur

Hi Dana
Normally you would delete the previous case history in your folder then upload the new one. However, it looks like Lavinia uploaded the previous case history for you, which means you can't delete it (only the uploader can delete the file). You'll need to ask Lavinia to delete the previous case history.
As a measure to get your current case history up, can you rename it to perhaps include the date? I always rename my case histories when I update them as, for example, "Indy case history 25 May 2019". This helps with my record-keeping too. Hopefully if the title of the current case history is slightly different, you should be able to upload it. Otherwise, you'll need to wait for Lavinia to delete the old one.

Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010


Re: 2 Inflammatory rings on newest xrays

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Hi Brittany,

No worries, you're doing fine here. It can a bit confusing initially but you'll get the hang of what goes where.

The heavy rings are "event rings" and are too substantial to have been caused solely by a change in diet. Those damaged areas of hoof capsule are from the laminar connections stretching as they followed the bones when they sunk. They are the external evidence of the damage that was done. Because the toe was too long horizontally, it caused more pulling on those already damaged connections each time Little Bill took a step and put pressure on those areas, compressing them even more tightly. That pressure will continue as long as the toe remains too far out in front of where it needs to be. Unfortunately, although there has been some improvement in the toe length, it's still too far out ahead.

Need to take those toes back even further to set the breakover in the proper location, without removing ANY sole behind the point of breakover. The technique used when the latest rads were done wasn't the best, unfortunately, as when the views were snapped, the heels weren't weight bearing (they are in the air) so the alignment of the bony column is distorted. Having all the clinic labeling superimposed over the actual structures isn't helping as it is covering the location and orientation of the bones. Agree there isn't any rotation - neither bony column nor capsular. However, the HPA is still broken back, which means the height in the back half of the foot is too low relative to the front half. Likely, Little Bill's heels are underrun, which is combining with the sinking to leave the coffin bones ground parallel. Those dark lines in the toe area could be gas lines or possibly abscess tracks. It appears as if the tips of the frogs were marked - if that is true, then the frogs are stretched forward beyond where they should be. This is another consequence of toes that have run forward as they drag everything else on the bottom of the foot along with them, thinning the soles even more in the process. His frogs likely aren't as healthy as they should be in general so being in boots, which will trap moisture, will tend to make them shed. You can dust his soles with athlete's foot powder (like generic Gold Bond) before putting his boots on. With the soles being as thin as they are, definitely keep him in boots except maybe while in a deeply bedded stall or for an hour to allow for cleaning and airing daily.

Need to make sure NOTHING gets removed from the sole during trims and that the heels also get left alone for now. It would be really helpful if you could take and add to the album a full set of hoof photos so I can get you some mark-ups. Info on what's needed is here:

Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

A couple of things - diet questions, ACTH off the chart

Irene Collins-Fotino

Hi all,

Our veterinarian has told me that Logan's recent ACTH is now at 1200. Last September it was 600. In the past, it has increased, decreased, etc.
I have learned not to panic at these numbers - otherwise I would be just crazy with worry. He turned 27 this past May and is still going strong.
I mulch his hay with a leaf mulcher and he eats between 18 and 20 lbs daily with Stabul 1 and 4 qts of hay stretcher. He is on 2mg of Prascend
and until very recently 4 mg of pergolide. At the vets recommendation, we are going to increase his pergolide to 5 mg.
His hay changes a lot so analysis is difficult. He is on a base from HorseTech, Platinum Balance probiotic slippery elm and chia seeds,
Assure Guard and UGard (ulcers) Metamucil and 1 tsp of ThyroL.  

Our vet tried the other day, to initiate conversation regarding end-of-life  plans. Logan is eating well, urinating well, is happy and moves well.
We ride 4 - 5 times during the week - walk, trot and of course he will break into the canter when he wants.
Leptin and IR measurements are normal. She mentioned a difficult winter, slippery ice etc. She recommended that we increase his pergolide,
re-test in a month or two and see how he does this winter. I do not believe that it is Logan's time - he still has a lot of life and spunk.
Cushings sometimes compromises the health of the musculature and Logan has had problems with right-rear hamstrings but has always
bounced back. 

Then, the barn owner recommended that we stop the hay stretcher and substitute rice bran. Does anyone have opinions, thoughts,
suggestions about this? I would also like to try the ODTB hay cubes, but Logan is not a fan of hay cubes, so if possible, I'd like to but a
small amount. Does anyone know if the cubes are sold in small amounts anywhere. Since the IR count is within normal limits, does
hay stretcher have to be eliminated from Logan's diet?

Thanks in advance,


Irene & Logan
NRC 2009
Hudson, NH

trouble uploading

Dana Henry

Hi, I have updated my case histories, but when I try to upload them the computer says a file with this name already please!
Dana, Raindrop and Wilkie
Feb 2019

Case Histories:

Re: Pain Relief for Marquise


Thank you so much, Dr Kellon. I greatly appreciate the suggestions.

Can I ask a couple more questions?

At this point what is most important? Getting him to eat his bucket feed again and thus vits and minerals? Titrating him back up to the 1 mg pergolide? Getting minerals in him regardless of  if he is eating (syringing minerals)? Or pain management?

When I initially started him on pergolide in May I titrated him up slowly. It probably took a full 2 weeks before this started. Is it possible that he will do the same thing and go off his feed once he gets back up to the full 1 mg? .

Would you say that Devil's Claw is more effective for controlling ringbone pain than bute  or is it about the same pain management without the risks associated with long term use.

Ethanol fusion? Is this where alcohol is injected into the joint to cause it to fuse? Any possibility HA or a steroid injection could alleviate pain without the fusing?

I have considered booting him for a while, but a friend told me that booting during the summer in the heat can cause laminitis. True or False?

As always, thanks so much


Amber, Calliber and now Marquise
Upstate SC
Joined in 2019

Calliber Case History
Calliber Photos

Marquise's Case History
Marquise's Photos

Re: 2 Inflammatory rings on newest xrays


Thank you!  I am still trying to figure out my way around the group!  I didn’t realize I needed to make a signature for each subgroup too.  Sorry for the lack of pictures and case history when posting in the “Hoof group”.  If his foot is still “tearing”. Would you consider him to have active laminitis still?  The vet thinks he is “stable” and only sore because of his lack of sole.  He is 85% sound with Soft Ride boots on.  Turning around in his stall is still questionable sometimes and other times he looks normal.  
Brittany Nesbit
Madison, WI
June 2019

2 Inflammatory rings on newest xrays

Lavinia Fiscaletti

Copying this from ECHoof for Brittany and Little Bill.

I have uploaded Little Bill’s most recent x-rays.  It looks like he has two ridges by his coronary band that the vet referred to has inflammatory rings. Could these just be changes in feeds?  He also lost a lot sole depth, but doesn’t seem to have rotated and further?  About three weeks ago he shed his complete frog on both front feet.  I thought moisture was making his feet seedy and took off his softrides.  I think his feet were actually exfoliating regardless of moisture and being without boots made matters worse.  The foot above the gas line doesn’t look great to me,  Any thoughts?

Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team

Updated Case History - Help Please

Deb Walker

I finally got the missing records since spring of 2017, and have gone through and fixed some other things on my case history file to keep it within the guidelines requested (I think.) I also completed the GI ratio for most of his blood work that I have copies for since 2005. Wow. When you see the ups and downs, I think everyone will be as shocked as I am from totally out of control to within normal ranges and bouncing all over the place for all of these years.

I tried to upload the new case history myself, but it said access denied. Thank you.
Deb and Scotty
Northern Ilinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:

dr kellon/ grazing muzzle

Daisy Shepherd

dr. kellon, with that bucket muzzle, how long is your horse out with it?  how much hay do you then feed to compensate for use of a bucket muzzle. my horse is out with a muzzle either best friend,( i have given up on the green guard for now) from about 800 to 1100 then up for work then out again for a couple of hours then in from 5pmish until  800amish with 10 to 11 # of soaked hay overnite. his weight is better but still needs to lose a little; i plan  another glucose and insulin soon. thank you for your help, daisy and tiko
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History: 
Photo Album:,,,20,2,0,0

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