Date   

Really, really subtle symptoms?

jmc
 

The last time my horse was tested for PPID, ACTH only, it was very slightly above normal.  Earlier, about a year ago? he had the TRH Stim and was dead on normal. This horse is currently Compensated IR, and a BCS of 5 (yay!)

Although he presents no overt PPID symptoms, I've noticed one oddity: Though he's completely shed out now, he still has some random long guard hairs along the top of his back (which shed out, otherwise, ages ago). Is this a symptom of early PPID? He has always had guard hairs along his jaw, for as long as I can remember; I usually trim them up once he's shed out (but not his whiskers!). He shows no symptoms of laminitis, in fact had the farrier apply hoof testers, completely negative reaction.

Although he is of a good weight now, I was hoping to get a little more off of him, but he's stubbornly stayed at his current weight - about 950 lbs - despite lowering his hay ration to compensate for his 1 or 2 hours on our thin, desert native grasses pasture, and increases in exercise (he's currently ridden 3-5x per week, 30-60 minutes). I'll drop a current photo into the album, along with one of the back hairs.

We will retest ACTH in August, as suggested, but should we just do the regular blood test, or TRH Stim? At that time I'm hoping to also get radiographs, just for a baseline in case he does start to show signs of laminitis.


--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Re: Can a horse be in a laminitic episode with no heat or pulses?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jennifer,

Were this my horse I'd be immediately going to soaking the hay and getting his feet x-rayed to make sure there's been no further rotation than what he had previously.  Without a current case history it's going to make any suggestions other than that difficult but given his history of sub-clinical laminitis it sounds like he's having another episode now. Less likely to be the trim IMO as those issues usually show up within 24 hours, not 5 days later unless he's trying to push an abscess out or something along those lines (which again may have nothing to do with the trim).

Your old case history is here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Shahtahr.  If you go to https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/home#Case-History-Help you can find the newer form.  If you can do an update with his current information that would be really helpful for us to be able to help you.  Current foot photos will also help - directions on how to take those are here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/home#Photos-and-Hoof-Evaluation-Help and then you can create an album here: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos and post them.

And finally (as if that wasn't enough) if you can add the link for the case history and the photos to your signature that will help us help you and Shahtahr. 



--

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)

EC Primary Response

PA 2014

 

 


Re: Copper/ Zinc

reneeschade@...
 

He gets California Trace Plus, so Zinc 963, Copper 377, Manganese  479 ( from hay/ pasture analyses)
Im looking to add more Poly Copper and Zinc but I want to get the levels correct. The California Trace Plus alone doesn’t seem to help.  


Re: grazzing muzzle

Sherry Morse
 

If the thin line muzzle is the one that comes with all the zip ties the size of the hole is the least of the issues.  IMO I'd stick with the Best Friends or similar muzzle.



--

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)

EC Primary Response

PA 2014

 

 


Re: Instructional You Tube Video

Sherry Morse
 

These are amazing Tanna!  Thank you so much for doing this!



--

Thanks,
Sherry and Scutch (and Scarlet over the bridge)

EC Primary Response

PA 2014

 

 


Top up post exercise

Cheryl Oickle
 

I read somewhere about a top up with beet pulp and whole oats for IR Cushings horses post workout.   We are working hard and Jewels oomph is sluggish on the extreme hill work we are doing.  She fine on level work.  Is there a pre load of ? I can give her? Weight excellent and shes doing great otherwise
--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: How-To Video for clipping PPID horses?

Bonnie
 

Thank you, Lavinia and Cass.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Can a horse be in a laminitic episode with no heat or pulses?

 

Hi all, I haven't posted in a long time because, well, we've gratefully had no reason to!  My now 25 year old boy, Shahtahr, was dx'd as IR back in 2012.  He had "sneaky laminitis" I believe, which finally got bad enough to show itself in a reluctance to walk out...which led to x-rays, finding 3 and 5 degree rotation in LF and RF respectively.  That led me to finding this group, getting help, etc.  We've never looked back.  I dutifully tested every squeeze of orchard hay I bought, fed exactly according to the advice given here, worked with Lorna on trims, and we've been great.

My situation changed 1.5 years ago when we moved from our large property in Central California to Norco, CA.  I can no longer store enough hay to really warrant testing every time.  I have a feed shed that can maybe hold 20 bales.  I continued to feed orchard (I had tested every squeeze of orchard grass over the previous years and never had a load come in at over 10% ESC+starch so I felt kinda safe) and Shahtahr did okay except that he started getting diarrhea.  Someone suggested I try feeding Teff, instead, which the feed stores carry here.  He's been on Teff for about 6 months now (different loads almost every delivery - that's how it is here) and has been sound (have not tested the Teff either because of same storage issue).  He doesn't really like the Teff...has lost some weight because he leaves a lot of it.

So, about 3-4 weeks ago, the feed stores got in a new load of Teff, that was nice and soft and smells really nice - first load of the spring.  Shahtahr likes it...still not as much as orchard, but he's eating it.

He was trimmed and re-shod in his Eponas one week ago.  Two days ago, I've noticed he is favoring his left front a bit.  Not severely, just not wanting to pivot on it.  And overall, he's walking kind of stilted or stiff-like.  I have been monitoring his hoof temps with an infrared surface temp gauge several times a day.  His hooves remain in the mid 80-degree range - the same as my non-IR young gelding.

I went ahead and sent a sample of this Teff to Equi-Analytical and will get results later this week, so I know if it's the hay.  In the meantime:

1) Can a horse be having a laminitic episode even though hooves remain cool?
2) He's been eating this hay for several weeks now.  Would it have taken this long for laminitis to occur, if the hay is the culprit?

I think I will just soak his hay until I have test results back, but I suppose there is a chance that he was trimmed too short (he actually got trimmed/shod only 3 1/2 weeks from last time, due to a timing issue with my other horse and getting back "in sync") so I suppose it's possible too much foot was taken...?  Ughhh!  We've had such a good 7-year run - returning to competitive trail and endurance...my nightmare might be back!

Thanks for any advice!

Jennifer and Shahtahr
Norco, CA  2012


Re: Copper/ Zinc

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

It depends on how much zinc, copper and manganese is in his diet.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Copper/ Zinc

reneeschade@...
 

Question, if horse gets 3200mg of Iron from pasture and hay, how much Copper/ Zinc should I give him? 
He’s Cushing’s and bleached out coat. Poor hoof quality. 

Thanks,
Renee  


Re: Help Please. New Labs (+Leptin) Next Steps???

 

Hi, Deb - you may have missed Nancy's response to your first post on this question. It is here:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/236794  
--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Need Next Steps after new labs in: 1st Baseline Leptin, New ACTH - too high at 32.6 pg/ml.

 

Hi, Deb - Nancy already gave you excellent answers; I will just repeat them and paraphrase a little. 

On Wed, Jun 12, 2019 at 10:56 PM, <CdeOeste@...> wrote:
First time (Baseline) Leptin completed, and ACTH. (I did not request Glucose, so will next time).

I don't like the high ACTH. As expected, his numbers fall within "Normal" numbers. I don't think this is acceptable. What is my next steps, in order please? Bump him to 1.5mg Pergolide/day?

You are correct, in that for this time of year, when ACTH should be at its lowest, it is too high. Most PPID horses do best when the ACTH is kept in the low to middle normal range, not high normal. Yes, increase to at least 1.5 mg (if it were me, I would go to 2 mg). Here is Nancy's answer:  If he were here I’d want Diamond,s ACTH lower especially as we turn the corner going to seasonal rise and especially if he’s showing any symptoms. Decide your desired dose, increase at .25 to .5 mg for three days until you reach your target. A .5 total increase may or may not be enough 


2.  How often is the full panel to be done? (If by Full Panel to Include: Leptin, Glucose, ACTH, Insulin)  Perhaps 2x a year?)
Twice yearly is ideal - no need to do leptin again. Here is Nancy's answer:  Testing twice a year is a good idea if it is in the budget. Mid summer  testing makes sure you are under control for seasonal rise. Late winter testing shows if the disease is progressing and needing more pergolide. If you want to see where you are with this dosage adjustment, reach your desired dose, then wait three weeks and retest. You don’t need to do leptin again. Dr Kellon has recently stated baseline leptin is sufficient. A human glucometer is helpful to pull the glucose right then and there when insulin/acth is being pulled for the lab. 
3.  Is the low-mid desert Arizona seasonal rise different than other climate zones? a. Is seasonal rise more elevated due to high temps, or b. does it occur over a longer period since it is already 106-degrees today. (Fortunately I have a Sonoran desert horse who often stands in full sun at 104 degrees.  I hose, salt his hay, sprinkle his hay with water. As needed add electrolytes. He has access to deep shade all day. He shows no sign of heat stress, amazing) 
The seasonal rise is controlled by day length, not temperature. There may be subtle variations in the degree of seasonal rise as you get close to the equator, again because of day length, but it really does come down to the individual horse more than the location. Good work on horsekeeping in a hot climate! Here is Nancy's answer:  IME the seasonal rise is dependent more on the individual not so much the location.  



Thank you!

Deb W.

Tucson, AZ

Joined 5/2/2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20&%20Diamond
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90509


 
--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: explanation regards to risqi, mirg

Nancy C
 

You can also see Dr Kellon explain laboratory reference ranges and why they are not "normal" in the Diagnosis film right at the top of this page:  https://www.ecirhorse.org/video.php

Also more text info here https://www.ecirhorse.org/DDT+E-diagnosis.php
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
DDT+E = effective treatment for PPID and EMS/IR equines: https://bit.ly/2J4ZgYT

 


Re: Fasting for control of insulin resistance

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Well, starvation is certainly an effective way to make the insulin drop and since insulin is driving the laminitis it would help with that - but at the expense of likely electrolyte/mineral/water imbalances, muscle wasting, delayed healing, gastric ulceration and in ponies/minis possible life threatening hyperlipemia.  The high insulin will come running right back when you feed the horse again unless the diet (and PPID if present) is corrected.

The same thing can be accomplished with the emergency diet - maximizing safe fiber calories.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Fasting for control of insulin resistance

 

Jannalee, my understanding of fasting is that puts the body into "starvation mode"; and in ponies, donkeys and cats, for certain sure, hepatic lipidosis is a common sequel to that. I would suspect horses are also at risk of hepatic lipidosis (which is life- threatening, and can be very difficult to turn around).

One does hear stories of previously IR horses ending up in a neglect situation, and having low insulin levels once the poor creatures are discovered in a very thin or emaciated state, but it can't be a recommended protocol (not only dangerous, very unethical). I really can't imagine any veterinarian recommending such a thing.

The *only* way that fasting can relieve foot pain is by removing dietary triggers; however, the most efficacious way to do that is with the Temporary Emergency Diet -  as you have successfully demonstrated with this horse. Great job, Jannalee!  The horse and owner are very lucky to have found you.
--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711


Re: Fasting for control of insulin resistance

Lorna Cane
 

Anxiously awaiting a reply to this.

Just wanted to say, Jannalee, that you are a saint.....just to state the obvious!

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Fasting for control of insulin resistance

 

Has anyone ever had their veterinarian advise fasting as a means to alleviating laminitic foot pain and high insulin?

The woman I've been speaking to claims that her vet did and, moreover, that the horse "improved" after two weeks on a regimen (I use the term loosely) of just "water and minerals". I think the minerals might've been a scoop of a commercial pelleted horse feed in a slurry of water.

Aside from what seems like a very drastic thing to do, can Dr. Kellon or Clougher please explain how fasting could alleviate foot pain?

The gal and I have already gone over the dangers of fasting as I know them and she is now on the Emergency Diet and is soaking hay, using boots, and preparing for blood work. The mare has gone two days with no obvious foot pain and is eating 15# of hay a day, a first for her, says her owner.

Thanks much for the input.

 

Jannalee

Jannalee Smithey, EDO in Talent, OR
Member since 2006
Member, ECIR Board of Directors

 


Re: How-To Video for clipping PPID horses?

 

Bonnie, I don't know of a video to leave the coat long. Most of us need to clip annually to remove the heavy coat for hot weather.

If you clip with the direction of hair growth (as opposed to against the pattern of hair growth), you will leave the coat longer (but not very even IME). The smaller the number of the clipper blades, the longer the coat. Here's a guide designed for dogs: https://diydoggrooming.com/clipper-blades/   At the very beginning, the article mentions skip tooth blades. If you can find a reasonable width to use on a horse, that might be an option.

Hopefully an experienced groomer will respond with better suggestions.
--
Cass for Cayuse (PPID/IR) and Diamond (IR)
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos


Re: How-To Video for clipping PPID horses?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Bonnie,

The length of the remaining coat depends on the blade used - you can shave down to the skin using a surgical blade or leave varying amounts of length. The lower the blade number, the longer the hair that is left. Check this out as an example:

https://www.osterpro.com/products/blades/oster-size-3-skip-tooth-detachable-blade/078919-226-005.html#start=2

You can shave in the direction of the hair coat instead of against it to leave it longer. Holding the clippers above the body and just skimming the areas you want to shorten also works, just tedious if there is a lot of surface area to cover.

HTH.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Instructional You Tube Video

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

THANK YOU - with bells on!
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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