Date   

Re: Protein and nitrates - hay test

hdavis
 

Hello,

I posted the analysis in my case history.  Here is the link.  Help please on if this hay is ok to buy.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa/2019-08-13%2022-07.pdf


I wonder about nitrates and ignite protein is too high.

Thanks!!!
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Re: When to retest after starting prascend trial

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Jody,

There is no doubt that the Prascend is having an effect. The question is whether you are getting complete control of the ACTH or not. Right now, the seasonal rise is in effect so ACTH is steadily rising. Because Yankee's ACTH was elevated back in Feb but he didn't start his meds until late July, you are "chasing the numbers" as the climbing ACTH keeps exceeding the current pergolide dose's ability to fully control it. That's why you see some improvement in the symptoms but not a steady one. In a PPID horse, the rise will continue into at least Oct before plateauing.

If this was one of my horses, I'd plan to increase the dose to at least 2mg before retesting, and hope that is enough of a jump to "catch up".

ESC+starch is 6% in your hay - which is definitely safe. NSC is an outdated term and doesn't matter.

The Smart metabo-lean and Smart lamina are a waste of your money. Stop the Redmond salt and only use plain white or iodized. Really should have your minerals balanced to your hay analysis as you have deficient copper and zinc; several supplements that are adding magnesium; imbalanced calcium to phosphorus ratios.

Realize you are in a tough spot regarding hay but horses are really sensitive to mold so be very, very careful.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Pergolide dosing -

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Donna,

This study was discussed here recently:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/32783378#238989

1. Compounded pergolide and Prascend are the same medication, just in different forms. Dosing is the same. If you are going to switch from Prascend to compounded, make sure the pharmacy knows this so there is no inadvertent change in the amount of pergolide being administered.

2. Many members here use Pet Health Pharmacy in AZ:

    https://www.pethealthpharmacy.com/

More choices in the Compounding Pharmacies list in the Wiki:

    https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/wiki/ECIR-Links

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


When to retest after starting prascend trial

jmc
 

FYI, CH has been updated, and I've uploaded this year's hay analysis.

Yankee was started on Prascend on 25 July, 1/2 pill.  He did so well on 1/2 that I left him on that level until he started peeing more again... so he didn't reach full prescribed dose (1 pill) until Aug 8th.  He was last tested in Feb, ACTH was 39.5. He hasn't been retested since.

So, my question is - when's the best time to have him retested to see if the Prascend is having an effect? The main thing I've noticed is that his drinking/peeing is mostly reduced, though it seems to be a day by day thing.  He hasn't really gained any energy back. He's never shown any lami symptoms so nothing to go on there.

Also, if someone could take a peek at my new hay analysis (Reed; I left last years - Tolman- there for comparison if needed, and because I still have about 1/2 ton left)), I'm a bit concerned with the NSC value, though the ESC +Starch should be within bounds. Please ignore the mold count, it's very scary but it is hay that was rained on as bales still in the field, so that's the mold on the outside, which I pull off. Inside seems fine, though I'm pulling every flake apart and shaking off dust, just to be sure. it is a terrible year for hay here, so this is the best i could do :(


--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Pergolide dosing -

Donna Hedicke
 

My vet is waiting for testing back from Cornell but in the meantime suggested I give Star pergolide twice daily if we go to compounded. (see https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31082785
which is a really small study).  We also have a rescued mini getting pergolide (not in the db yet) and it is getting so expensive. So I have a couple of questions. 

1.  Does it make a difference in dosing if it is compounded or Prascend tablet form?
2.  Is there a reliable compounding lab in the USA  (my vet is a little reluctant after the recent compounding errors where horsed died, but sees the need as we have a 3rd suspected PPID horse)
Thanks
--
DJ Hedicke
July 2018, Southern New Mexico
Star Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/DJ%20and%20Star


Re: Protein ?

Holly Harrington
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,
Thank you for your response. She doesn't get much else in her diet. we feed her the cubes 4X a day. Flax, Salt, Vit E, Chasteberry and soaked hay overnight. Is there anything else I should be adding to her diet?
She is worked about one hour a day 5-6 days a week. She shows in hunter jumper about 2X a month.
Thanks again!
I am so grateful to have stumbled across this resource.
-
Holly Harrington
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Holly%20and%20La%20la/Tralala%20case%20history%20.pdf


Re: Was: Please explain new blood test results Now: Retested Insulin Results

taskerudet
 

Hi Lavinia,

Yes, I am aware about submitting the sample to KSU.  I will download the paperwork and give that to my vet. 
Thanks for making sure I do the right thing!
--
Ellen
July 2011, Goldendale, WA
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Ellen%20and%20Crackers
Crackers' Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1645


Re: Was: Please explain new blood test results Now: Retested Insulin Results

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Ferne,

Usually results will be lower if samples are mishandled.
It seems the CP increase ,and better results, may have helped answer that question .

--

Lorna  in Kingston, Ontario, Canada
ECIR Moderator
2002
https://ecir.gro
ups.io/g/main/files/PPID%20and%20IR%20Success%20Stories/Success%20Story%20%233%20-%20Lorna%20and%20Ollies%20Story.pdf


 


Re: Was: Please explain new blood test results Now: Retested Insulin Results

ferne fedeli
 

A few months back, I asked my vet to ask Cornell to retest ACTH and Insulin (because they were higher than usual) and they both came out higher too.  It may be because the samples were sitting around longer.  The last tests were better (after an increase in CP).
--

Ferne Fedeli

No. California

Regional Members Database Coordinator

 - see who is near you

Add your contact information if you want to help out/meet ECIR members in your area.

Case History


Re: Arizona 7 year old laminitic mare due in March

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

As a young QH, it's highly unlikely she is IR at baseline but pregnancy induces a degree of IR in all mares and causes a high laminitis risk.  The Total Equine Low NSC still isn't low enough for laminitis and both products are alfalfa based which aggravates some laminitics.

Blood work now won't tell you about her nonpregnant state but you still need to know if she is dealing with an insulin issue. I would also strongly recommend radiographs and please get photos of her feet posted ASAP (instructions in the Wiki).
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Protein ?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 


From the cubes alone she is getting 472 g of protein/day, about 1.75 g/kg if she weighs 600 lbs, more if she is lighter, plus whatever she gets from other things in her diet (??).  She should be  getting 3 to 4 oz of flax and consider Tri-Amino for essential amino acid insurance https://uckele.com/tri-amino-2lb.html . Add salt and vitamin E and she's done. That is more than enough protein unless she is performing in the upper echelon of eventing or racing.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Protein ?

celestinefarm
 
Edited

Holly, this question about protein is best addressed by Dr. Kellon or one of the balancers here since in your case, you are feeding a pony that is also working. Depending on how much work she is actually doing, she may need some additional protein . Dr. Kellon has written about working, event horses needing a higher amount of protein in the diet. 


  https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2017/08/13/protein-for-the-active-horse/

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Arizona 7 year old laminitic mare due in March

Sarah Radachy
 

 
Good morning,
 
We are in the middle of monsoon right now (when it is suppose to rain) but it hasn’t so it has been hot 100+ and humid. Many cases of laminitis including my mare. My mare is quarter horse, due with a foal in March. I pulled her shoes in the winter as she isn’t being ridden as much as she is pregnant and so am I. We went on vacation and I turned her out in the dry lot. While on vacation for a week it got really hot and humid and I came back to a lame horse. Vet and I agreed it looks like laminitic symptoms with how she was trying to walk/not walk at all.  She is now in a soft stall, in soft rides was on bute for a few days.   I pulled grain (total equine) and soaking hay as a precaution. Our hay is such good quality our vet was worried that Bermuda may still be too high. Also putting ice around pasterns. After two days of that she is walking normal. 
 
How likely is it that she is really IR? And would it be hard to test since she is pregnant? I am looking into the total equine version for IR horses now and she is getting a basic mineral/vitamin supplement in the meantime. 


This mare is my barrel horse and plan to return to that after foal is born and weaned. 
Emailed this a few ways (sorry if a duplicate) 
 
--
Sarah Radachy


Re: Was: Please explain new blood test results Now: Retested Insulin Results

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Ellen,

If you are going to test for iron you need to send the sample to KSU to get serum iron, ferritin and TIBC done. KSU is the only lab that can do the ferritin part of the testing. Serum iron alone won't tell you much other than give an indication about the iron content of the most recent meal:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/Iron,%20Iron%20Testing,%20Iron%20Overload/KSU%20Iron%20Submission%20Information.pdf

http://www.ksvdl.org/laboratories/default-sample-submission.html

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Skin issue products

minicarriagehorse
 

I know that PPID can be responsible for worsening skin issues on equines. When I received my saddle donkey 13 weeks ago he was in rough shape. (Undiagnosed PPID being the main problem) He came with terrible rain rot and small rub wounds that were a challenge to heal. Muck-Itch brand spray healed the main areas of rain rot pretty quickly. But there were a few small spots that were either rubbed raw or the insects had literally eaten him raw. The spray did not work and neither did regular wound salve. So....I tried a product called Coat Defense Paste. This stuff covered the wound and stayed on, kept bugs off and stopped any itching. It also cleared up my Haffy mares small rub on her heel that would not go away. If anyone has small spots that are tough to clear up, I would suggest giving this a try. It really works!

--
Debra and Sam
Aiken SC
8/01/19


Re: Protein ?

Holly Harrington
 
Edited

Hi Tanna,
I am feeding Triple Crown Timothy Balance cubes. She eats about 13# per day. I believe she is concerned because the program is so different. Her weight has really stabilized on this diet. Where she was a little lean once we have gotten her up to 5-6 days of training and she adjusted to the new diet. We increase the amount a little bit and she looks really good now.
Thanks for the feedback and link.
--
Holly Harrington
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Holly%20and%20La%20la/Tralala%20case%20history%20.pdf


Re: Vet not on board for pergolide increase

 

Hi LJ,

Because I misinterpreted the indicators for pergolide increase symptoms.  Since I started feeding her the TC timothy balance cubes as her main diet, it's been tight affording everything and I have been trying to cut costs in other areas if I can.

I would like to reduce her dosage, if she doesn't need it mainly because at the rate I've been increasing her, she'd be up to 20 mg. by next year and I would keep increasing her dosage unnecessarily and missing other important physical symptoms or not looking at them correctly.  Also, if I know her dosage is correct I can look at other factors when she has loose stools or loses her appetite and won't be so focused on pergolide increase. Right now I can think of 3 things that may be causing that, but I really think some pain trigger has been removed and because she's not that different in her hindquarters, I tend to believe it's in her feet, particularly her RF, although she's not lame on it.

Helen, Josie and Kyra
May 2016
Brunswick, VT, USA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Josie 
Josie's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22630 
Kyra's Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1370


Re: Protein and nitrates - hay test

 

Hi, Heather. 
It would be helpful if you posted your hay analysis in the case history folder. Nitrate in hay can be expressed in different way. Those I'm most familiar with are: ppm Nitrate as Nitrogen (NO3-N), Percentage Nitrate as Nitrogen, ppm Nitrate (NO3-) and percentage NO3-. My testing doesn't show ppm Nitrate as Nitrogen lower than 70 (expressed as <70ppm). 

If your analysis shows 34.89 ppm Nitrate-Nitrogen as Dry Matter, then that level of nitrates is acceptable. 
--
Cass for Cayuse (PPID/IR) and Diamond (IR)
Sonoma County, Calif. Oct. '12

Cayuse Case History                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History              Diamond Photos


Re: California Trace Plus vitamin E and iodine

Nancy C
 

Hi Marian and Michelle

Unfortunately flax does not provide fat source sufficient to carry the Vit E.  One thing Dr Kellon has said about this has always stuck with me.  In the vast soup that is the equine stomach, you need the fat and E to be together or it will get lost.  So if you are not using an E already in a fat source -- Caps with soy oil or a micronized E -- you need to add fat.  Ideally you want to mix the two together before feeding.  I have used a small amount of olive oil. Just enough to put four or five caps in.

If you are using a supplement with E in it, you want to add more E, or add oil as Dr Kellon has suggested previously, and not use if over six months old.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Protein ?

Tanna
 

Here is a nice doc about proteins. 

Figuring Protein Needs


--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 

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