Date   
Re: Lily suspected of ringbone

Kati Indigo
 

Thank you for clarifying that Dr. Kellon. I remember you had mentioned arthritis. Thank God tomorrow is Thursday already with the vet coming. Last night Lily's right foot hurt her a lot again. Hopefully we can find out what causes her right one to hurt more than the left that shows more arthritic changes.
--
Kati and Lily in Arizona member since October 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/filessearch?q=kati+and+lily

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=77277

Re: Increasing Mill's Pergolide

millionairess1989
 

Hi Sherry,

Yes, it is correct. The Pergolide capsules came from Pet Health Pharmacy and are stored in the refrigerator door. Blood draw was 9-8-19 at around 2pm, spun within 30 minutes and frozen for ACTH. Mill got her Pergolide about 7pm the night before, which I just poke in her mouth.
--
Jennifer & Mill & Jack
Middle TN  2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Millionairess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jennifer%20and%20Jack-TN%20Walker

Re: Is Cushings inevitable?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Here are some definitely not thin, probably BCS 5.5 to 6, Fjords:

http://www.nfhr.com/catalog/index.php?colors=1

https://www.123rf.com/photo_19053428_beautiful-fjord-pony-stallion-moving-in-paddock.html

https://shoestringstable.wordpress.com/2011/09/07/ask-the-audience-fjords/overall-high-point-stallion-in-nfhr-evaluation-program/

Drop down for this one http://www.norwayheritage.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6431

Not to be insulting but he is quite definitely still fat. The thick and often cresty  Fjord neck can deceive the eye into thinking the body is in proportion. Try covering his neck and comparing his body bulk to his legs.

It has been said that any horse that lives long enough will develop PPID and there's probably a lot of truth to that. Age is still the only proven risk factor.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Awaiting ATCH results and Question

Deb Walker
 

Thank you Dawn and Jennifer. Good tips Dawn regarding keeping track of things. Jennifer - I just sent a text to my vet; since she sent the sample, she would be the one who would have to track it.

Symptom wise, Scotty appears so much better, which was why the staggering high ACTH # was such a shock. Except for Exercise, we have all of the DDT in place. I haven't wanted to force him to walk (for exercise) while we are doing twice a week rasping/trims in case he is sore. His front toes still have a ways to go to come back, but I'd rather go slow than all at once. His backs are looking really good.

It reassures me to know that everyone isn't testing continually; it is definitely cost prohibitive. As it is, I feel like I take my paycheck and throw it out the window on Scotty's special feeds and care :)
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Re: High Zinc in my new Hay

 

Is this the same one that Cindy just shared to Pete's rehab page??
 
And very curious, you buy liquid pergolide that keeps for two months? 
 
Tried reading back over the reams of e-mails, but gave up, sorry ...
 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 

Re: Is Cushings inevitable?

Deb Walker
 

Aw thanks Cindy :)
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619

Re: New Member - advice please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Tue, Sep 10, 2019 at 07:11 PM, <ailsa.gibson@...> wrote:

0)  What do her blood results show, re IR / EMS?  Or are they worthless due to the steroids?  I can just proceed assuming EMS for now. 

Were these fasting blood tests? When had she eaten last? The adiponectin result confirms IR and insulin is elevated per the lab's ranges, but glucose is so low it's incompatible with life so the sample likely sat unspun at a warm temperature for quite a while. In any case, because of the recent steroid treatment she should be retested  In humans, prednisolone causes adiponectin to rise while in healthy dogs it has no effect. We don't know what it does in horses.



1)  We have all our hay and haylage in storage for the year, I will get it tested.  Until I know its values I guess I keep soaking hay and feeding 2% of body weight. I'm about to buy some linseed/flax and I am also giving her the usual forage balancer minerals mix I have always used with my two horses.  Could anybody tell me if that looks ok to keep on with using? It has a full analysis/ingredients here: https://forageplus.co.uk/product/hoof-and-skin-health-winter-horse-feed-balancer/ 

It's fine to use until you have a hay analysis. Feed her 2% of her correct body weight or 1.5% of current weight, whichever is larger.

2)  How long after she seems to be walking comfortably again dare I safely let her out alone in our dry lot/run?  She is already really bored, not used to be confined in the field shelter! And how do I tell when she is ok to go back out on the track (even if fully muzzled) for a while each day with my gelding?  (They are great friends, but can run around together a lot.)

Agree with Sherry.

3) I think read something on here about being wary of red/brown salt licks and iron.  She loves her salt lick which is a big quarried chunk of pink rock salt. Is that ok? 

It's your choice but be aware the colored "natural" salts are nothing more than dirty salt,  contaminated with all sort of other minerals, most of which are not healthful.

4) You recommend non mollased sugar beet as a carrier for minerals etc and forage replacer.  I read on another site that as it tastes sweet it tricks the metabolism into thinking sugar is on its way, producing more insulin, making them hungrier and increasing leptin resistance. Is that ever a known problem? 

Pure nonsense.

5)  If she is "just" an EMS case due to obesity (though there are far fatter horses all around us, without laminitis, which concerns me) is there a good chance that if I can get weight off her, then retest her blood, that she might have a normal profile again and be able to cope with a little grass each day in the long term, as long as I keep her slim?  Or do these problems tend to stick?

https://wp.me/p2WBdh-Iq . Obesity doesn't cause EMS. It's the other way around.

 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Emmie. Updated and uploaded Case History

 

Oh, heck, Ellen, I am sorry to hear this. That insulin is rather alarming. Her ACTH in the fall has previously always been nicely in the reference range, and now for the first time it is above reference. If Emmie were mine, I would start pergolide at least for the seasonal rise, and run a Lyme panel.
--
Jaini 
Merlin and Maggie (over the bridge), Gypsy, Ranger
ECIR mod/support, Smithers, BC 09

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jaini%20and%20Merlin-Maggie-Gypsy .
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=34193  
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=39711

Canadian members

Sherry Morse
 

Re: Emmie. Updated and uploaded Case History

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Yes, it definitely could be contributing. Lyme flares are very common at  the exact same time as the seasonal rise and I doubt that's a coincidence. There seems to be a temporary weakening of the immune system, likely far more significant in PPID horses.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Emmie. Updated and uploaded Case History

Nancy C
 

Thanks for your kind words Ellen. 

Ellen and Emmie have been here since 2014. 

I wondered if lyme coming back could also be contributing to her higher insulin and hope Dr Kellon or Dr Clougher could give us their thoughts on retesting. 

Thanks. 
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA

Re: Emmie. Updated and uploaded Case History

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Ellen,

Assuming those tests were done at Cornell she's now PPID in addition to IR and the elevated ACTH could be driving her insulin levels up.  You'll be getting a full welcome letter shortly so please be sure to read that, but have you spoken with your vet about starting her on pergolide/prascend to see if you can get her ACTH under control?


Re: New Member - advice please

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Alisa,

Hopefully Dr. Kellon will jump in to discuss the bloodwork results more completely but the results given indicate that while she is IR it's under control at the moment.  So with that in mind you're going to want to be mindful of her diet forever so she hopefully doesn't have another laminitic episode or slip into the 'uncompensated IR' range.  

You'll probably never really know about the steroids tipping her to laminitis but just keep in mind if her breathing was that elevated due to pain in her feet she was probably already having an issue so yes, definitely a chicken/egg sort of thing.

Since you don't have a current or ideal weight listed for Trixie just keep in mind that you want to feed her either 2% of her ideal weight or 1.5% of her current weight (whichever is greatest) to get her weight down.  Without knowing the hay values it's hard to say for sure about the balancer - knowing it's from Forage Plus it's probably a good general balancer, but one of our other members may know more about it.

If she's walking comfortably you can let her out again - we don't advocate forced exercise but if she's willing to move on her own it will help with a multitude of things if she is moving.  The same for letting her back out on the track - if she's comfortable in the dry lot and you think that the gelding won't harass her into moving more than she should be you can let her out with him again. Just be sure (of course) to monitor them to make sure he's not making her move than she wants to.

I'm not an expert on salt licks but that sounds like it's a Himalayan one? We don't recommend those either, just the plain salt variety.

If you use beet pulp we recommend rinsing it, soaking it and rinsing again (R/S/R) so the odds of it tasting sweet are slim to none (having inhaled a fair amount of it I don't think it tastes like anything but I'm not a horse).  That bit about 'it tastes sweet so it tricks the metabolism...' sounds like hogwash to me but one of the vets may be able to comment more on that.  Would love to know where you saw that too.

Getting the excess weight off (and then keeping it off) is the best way to control IR but it doesn't mean that she can then return to going out on grass with no worries.  More likely - given that she has evidence of previous laminitic episodes - she's going to need to be kept muzzled whenever she's not in the dry lot.

Hope that answers most of your questions and I'm sure others will chime in as well.

Re: dissolving Prascend in water to administer- is this OK?

Frances C.
 

You don't need to crush the pill, not recommended. You can just dissolve it instead, perhaps in a little oil instead of water (easier to slip down the syringe and throat) Try and find a nice tasting oil, maybe hemp with its good mega 3.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382

Re: Awaiting ATCH results and Question

celestinefarm
 

Deb, I test prior to the seasonal rise to see where I am.  No, I can't test two horses every month , it's not necessary and at $200 each and $50 for the barn call, that would be $5400 for testing alone.  Additionally, the endocrinologists that interpret my test results from MSU always include the caveat that symptom relief should be a priority, not chasing numbers as ECIR has always maintained. 

Juniper tested in the middle of the range for normal at MSU' s lab and yet the endocrinologist said that her history( your vet should include symptom history with their submission of the blood sample) of foot soreness, fat pads, etc. and her insulin out of normal despite diet controls( my vet knows what I feed) warranted a trial of pergolide for symptom relief.

Keep photos and a diary( simply writing it on a calendar can suffice) of symptoms , checking it every week can really help. Anything negative needs attention. Review DDT &E first, then consider moving up pergolide. Remember, everything doesn't need to be 100% perfect, but pergolide alone will not control symptoms if other recommended measures are not in place.
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .

Re: Gavi and friends new blood work

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Tara,

You can request ESC ($11) and starch ($13) only (plus the $8 custom fee) at Equi-Analytical for each of your samples.  Or request their "carb pack" for $37, which adds in WSC (although it is not needed and this package is a bit more expensive).  Add a note to the sample form stating further testing may be done based on initial results so please hold the sample.  Once you get your s/s numbers, call them back while they still have the samples and have them run the full "trainer" or "equine complete" package for only the hays that you want.

Again, DM values will always be higher than as fed values so if you were basing hay choices on DM values you were actually feeding hay that is LOWER in s/s than you thought.  That's a good thing!  The issue is that NIR analysis results can be higher OR lower than the actual s/s determined by wet chemistry analysis, so that is the only problem with your previous testing.

--
Kirsten Rasmussen
Kitimat, BC, Canada
January 2019

Shaku's Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kirsten%20and%20Shaku  
 

Shaku's Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=82559&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0   

Re: dissolving Prascend in water to administer- is this OK?

Sherry Morse
 

As others have already said, Prascend dissolves easily in water and is not supposed to be crushed so just put the pill in the syringe, add warm water and it should dissolve fairly quickly.  I never bothered with adding anything to it since I was shooting it down the back of Scarlet's throat, but you can if you want.


Re: Increasing Mill's Pergolide

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jennifer,

Don't cringe, but with your case history not being updated since 2017 my first question is going to be - is that information correct?  When was the blood draw (date)? What kind of Pergolide is she on/how is it stored/how is it administered?  

The vets may have more to say but having those answers will probably help them as well.


Re: Case histories uploaded, photo folders uploaded, questions?

Kate Triplett
 

FIrst, thanks to Dr. Kellon for sending over the research paper for my repro vet, it is much appreciated. She (my vet) said to me last night that she had consulted with a theriogenologist before starting the mare on Prascend; he had advised  that there is "a normal rise associated with pregnancy, but (that it is) later in gestation". She's taking it into her next meeting to add to the discussion.

As an aside - I did a search on the io group for Irish Draught - and lo and behold, friends started popping up from the waybacks (the Irish Draught world is a very small place). Of particular interest to me is this purebred ID mare, whose symptoms are identical to our Bunny's.
Link to Dr. Kellon's conversation with mare owner is https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/1002245#31076 You noted that this mare was likely not insulin resistant, but insulin SENSITIVE, which could point to a whole raft of other issues like EPSSM.

Can you expound on what bloodwork you would have us order to get a little closer to the truth for Bunny? We will continue the trial of Prascend and see what the next blood pull gives us for ACTH, in another week. I can order any other recommended tests at that time, if I know what to ask for!

For now, Bunny's on the emergency diet and very restricted at that - I weigh her hay dry and then soak and drain, then rinse and  drain again. Minimal soaked-rinsed-drained beet shreds as carrier for her metabolic supplement, salt and Vitamin E. In just over a week of diet management (read that she thinks she's starving) my husband can already see her losing blubber. The redmond salt has been removed, as it evidently (per searches here) has iron out of bounds, too bad as the other minerals are what they crave.Once I have my hay sampling kit I can get that tested (both dry and soaked) and will be able to find out where we are on mineral balance.
 
I know your initial concern was that the Prascend may be totally un-necessary (Please God???) but I'd like to make our horse whole if possible - she's only ten, one of the best mares in the breed, and her first filly is pretty spectacular. Bred back for a full sibling, on the last dose of frozen in North America for that deceased stallion.
 
Thank you so much for your caring attention - may many blessings flow your way!


--
Kate and Bunny (Irish Draught broodmare PPID) and Lacey (Irish Draught Sporthorse broodmare IR laminitis)
Homesick Angels Farm, WA USA
Joined August 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Bunny
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kate%20and%20Lacey
Lacey feet image files https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95212
Bunny image files https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95239



Re: KSU Results

Sherry Morse
 

Dorie,

You can email the results directly to Dr. Kellon at drkellon @ gmail.com (take the spaces out obviously).  You cannot attach files and send them to this list but you can put them in your case history folder if you have one.