Date   

Re: Herbs and rx meds

LJ Friedman
 

Follow up
what about stopping these:
aakg
acetyl l carnitine 
milk thistle 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Herbs and rx meds

LJ Friedman
 

Jesse has bern on fenugreek 2 tbs twice a day for some time. Never moved his labs in any way.  Now that invokana has normalized his labs, im thinking of not buying more fenugreek when i run out of it.  Thoughts? 
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Love Sick Gelding With Spotty Appetite - Is That Normal?

celestinefarm
 

Lynn,
Question. Since your barn owners are aware of Relevante's extreme reaction to this filly, why are they continuing to put her next to him? I realize you said they ended up moving her to a round pen, but she is also reacting to him and continuing to try them together , with a fence between is asking for one or both to get hurt. 
Stallions and geldings often will bluff when meeting other horses, but mares are usually deadly serious.  I pasture bred mares with my stallions. always after observing their behavior in which they were initially separated by driveways, barn aisles, , fences , etc.and there were times I had to abandon the idea of a particular mare and stallion combo. I chose not to hand breed my stallions, but am good friends with others who do and I can tell you for certain that there were never any injuries to the mares during breeding. If there were any injuries to either horse or human, it was to the stallion or stallion handler as they approached said mare. It's why breeding hobbles, twitches and sometime sedatives are used for mares. I had the most sweet , lovable mare that little kids and husbands could ride, was a beautiful, easy going momma with her babies and with humans who were helping at foaling, who absolutely beat the crap out of Tipperary for not approaching her in the pasture as she preferred, despite the fact she was in standing heat. I mean double barrel and she waited until he was directly behind her to mount before she let him have it with both feet.  Mares will also double barrel the stallion as he slides off after breeding, my other stallion was almost knocked completely over backwards by the most gentle , sweet mare. Both mares were experienced breeders, the first had two previous foals out of pasture breeding and the second had six foals, from a mix of pasture and hand breeding.
My point is that this may be a bad combination of personalities, no matter what. This mare should be out of heat and should be more tolerant of other horse's attention at this point. The fact that she is not tells me that they should not be in direct contact with each other.  Unless Relevant has done something to break a tooth, etc. he should be eating his hay. The fact that he is fascinated with this filly may eventually wear off if she is not accessible to him, but he may be spending as much time as possible where he can see her.  This is somewhat unusual behavior for a gelding, not unusual for a stallion ( I have friend's whose stallion paces his fence line for hours in a day , even when there is no change in mare placement on their farm, etc, he almost never needs hoof trimming and is horrific to keep weight on) . I would try to ride this out as long as the farm owners do not keep the filly next to him. I would put his hay in his turnout where he can see her, but the hay is in front of him. I would guess he will eventually decide to give up on her if he has no access to her and will start eating again.

I would, as a precaution, have plan B in my head. Plan B would involved moving him somewhere else if filly is a permanent boarder and his behavior doesn't change. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Slow feeder topic locked

 


Re: How Can I Balance the Need to Lose Weight with the Need to Graze?

 

Julie,
I am lucky (in a weird way) that I had just retired when my horse had his first laminitis episode. I got help from another member who sent me to this group. Once I learned to test hays and create a safe diet for my guy I found it difficult FOR ME to restrict his diet. I hated reducing his hay intake. I felt miserable and guilty. OK, I found 1" hole hay nets, but he learned to empty them incredibly quickly. Then I bit the bullet and doubled the hay nets. That slowed down his hay eating. THEN, I found mini-hay nets. These are dinky little hay nets and I could put a little bit of hay in each net and I tied them in numerous places around my horses dry lot areas. Tough-1 makes a small, low cost Mini Hay bag. 

I also learned that hay nets can be placed down low, just about ground level as long as the draw string is secured well. 
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Welcome Joy and Willie (aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

 

Hello and welcome Joy and Willie,
We noticed that your first post to the ECIR "Main" group was a helpful reply to another message. Thank you for contributing and I do agree with your contribution as I have seen two different horses that hooked their eye lids on bucket hangers and had to have their eyelids stitched back into place!

As a new member who successfully created a signature (thank you very much) you will find our new member "How-To" primer below. We give these directions to all new members.

Do you have a horse with Insulin Resistance, Laminits, Cushings, Pssm, or Equine Metabolic Syndrome? It is not a requirement that you have a horse that has health problems, we welcome members who are here just to learn and contribute. If you do have a horse with any of the health issues that I listed and want to discuss their issues or ask for assistance we require that you join our CaseHistory group and create a folder and case history for your horse. We ask that you add links to the folders that you create into your signature. For instance, within your horses case folder you would store the horse's case history document and you can create sub-folders to store hay test documents, blood test docs, water tests, etc. All jpeg files (photos, etc) will need to go into a folder you would create within the "Photos" area of the Case history group.

If you have questions that are specific to YOUR horse please be sure to create your own new message for your question about your horse or your new topic.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: How Can I Balance the Need to Lose Weight with the Need to Graze?

Joy V
 

Careful with carabiners.  I used to use them too, but I have seen several pics now online of horses w/ carabiner piercings in their lips/cheeks/faces.  I do think there are ones that screw closed which would probably be safer.

--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Slow feeder topic locked

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I locked the slow feeder nets topic because the nuts and bolts of it (sorry for the pun!) belongs on Horsekeeping where there is actually also a ton of information on this topic.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Pergolide

Reta Heaslip
 

Thank you for the quick response, Lavinia. I have made a call to my vet and am now packing my syringe. 
--
Reta
Sep 7
Gananoque, ON, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Reta%20and%20Whistler .

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035


locked Re: What type.of slow feeder hay nets do you use?

nevabeta
 

I made my own hay nets out of paracord, was very easy. Can make whatever size you want; use finer cord if needed, stainless steel rings. I tied a rope to the ring at the bottom, run it through drain plug hole in Rubbermaid tank; big washer followed by Stafford Slip Knot device to secure. Same device used to keep net closed, tub attached to wall with tie downs, eye bolts in wall. It’s basically the same system as Happy Grazers for a whole lot less money.

Aimée
NJ 2014


Re: Pergolide

Reta Heaslip
 

On Sun, Sep 29, 2019 at 08:59 PM, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
It does sound like Whistler might need a bump up in his dose but obviously you don't know by exactly how much at this point. Does it usually take this long for you to get the blood work results back? Maybe you can contact your vet tomorrow to see if anything has come back?

Some horses might be OK with that jump, others might get a pergolide veil response. You could dissolve the contents of a capsule into a small syringe of water (10cc). Then shake it up and administer 1/2 the contents along with the usual one full capsule. Refrigerate the remaining 1/2 syringe, then administer it the next day. Do that for 4 days, then if he doesn't seem to be reacting badly, you can then give him two full capsules daily and again monitor for any veil reaction. Or just remain on the 1and 1/2 dose for the entire week you are gone and decide once you return whether you want to go up to the double dose.

Check with your vet regarding this plan.

 
--
Reta
Sep 7
Gananoque, ON, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Reta%20and%20Whistler .

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035


locked Re: What type.of slow feeder hay nets do you use?

Maxine McArthur
 

On Mon, Sep 30, 2019 at 11:44 AM, Cindy Q wrote:
I like the 4cm square hay nets but I've only been able to find them in Australia - Greedy Steed or Gutzbusta. The smaller ones cost less than 30 AUD. I looked around US online but could only find ones that cost a lot more and were really big for my use (1 or 2 slices). I have to ship them overseas to me so it makes sense if I am doing multiple items and US is easier for me to ship with other stuff I need. Having tried 3cm and 4cm, I think 4cm works well for horse and ponies that we have.
We also use both these brands of net and are happy with them. They do eventually fray in places but come with replacement cord and are quite easy to patch. I combine the 3cm, 4cm and sometimes 6cm (for stalky hay) nets, depending on the type of hay and whether it's soaked or how slowly I want the horses to eat. The nets do allow the horses to get the last few wisps out with minimal frustration. I tried the Shires net with diamond-shaped holes and it was so difficult to stuff compared with the others that I gave up after the first time. 
 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Love Sick Gelding With Spotty Appetite - Is That Normal?

Lynn
 

Relevante has calmed down around the 3-year-old filly he is so enamored with. I've followed the advice given in the Sept 20 post   --  On Saturday the barn owner called and said he ate his grain but not his hay and he wasn't drinking any water but was otherwise acting fine. I had them take his temperature. It was normal (99.3). He spent most of the day outside standing at his paddock fence looking at her in the round pen. I went out this afternoon. He has resumed drinking water, ate his grain but had not touched morning or lunch hay and wouldn't take it from my hand when offered. I put his boots on and hand walked him around the property. He was calm and seemed okay. They had the filly in the paddock next to him. He's obviously still interested in her but was calm. She however was aggressive...squealing, kicking, striking out with her front feet every time they touched noses. They moved her to the round pen because i was afraid she might hurt him or herself kicking through the fence. I know with Cushings their jaw muscles can be affected etc., but he's always dug into his hay immediately.  This behavior of not eating the hay just started with the onset of his crush on this filly. Is this normal? Should I be concerned? He can't afford to lose weight especially right before winter. The barn owner thinks he's just "love sick."  I'm trying not to let my imagination leap to all kinds of other health issues...like ulcers, muscle problems etc. But logically those things would happen that fast would they? He was fine in terms of his eating habits etc., until she came on the property.

Lynn
Beavercreek, Ohio
March 2018
Relevante Case History
Relevante Photo Album

Ω


Re: Pergolide

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Reta,

It does sound like Whistler might need a bump up in his dose but obviously you don't know by exactly how much at this point. Does it usually take this long for you to get the blood work results back? Maybe you can contact your vet tomorrow to see if anything has come back?

Some horses might be OK with that jump, others might get a pergolide veil response. You could dissolve the contents of a capsule into a small syringe of water (10cc). Then shake it up and administer 1/2 the contents along with the usual one full capsule. Refrigerate the remaining 1/2 syringe, then administer it the next day. Do that for 4 days, then if he doesn't seem to be reacting badly, you can then give him two full capsules daily and again monitor for any veil reaction. Or just remain on the 1and 1/2 dose for the entire week you are gone and decide once you return whether you want to go up to the double dose.

Check with your vet regarding this plan.

--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


Re: Swollen Sheath- Dr. Kellon?

Chris Pennbo
 

Thanks! I did eventually discover how to do it!! Your help and advice are very much appreciated!
--
-Chris
May, 2019  Big Bear Lake, California
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Monte 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95892  


Re: Swollen Sheath- Dr. Kellon?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hi Chris,

What do you need to change in the titles?

To change labels: click on the photo in the album. When it opens, click on the blue EDIT button at the bottom left of the screen, under the picture.
In the new screen that opens, the picture will appear at the top. Underneath are two buttons to rotate the picture either clockwise or counter-clockwise.
Below that is a box labeled Owner.
Below that is the Name box, where you can type in whatever you want the picture to be called.
Below that is a large box Description. You can add additional here information about the picture, if you need to. We encourage you to keep this brief and discuss on the main group rather than beneath the photo itself.
At the bottom are two buttons - blue Update, for saving any changers you made on the page. Red Delete that will remove the picture permanently from the album.

HTH.
--
Lavinia and George Too
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
ECIR Support Team


locked Re: What type.of slow feeder hay nets do you use?

 

Hi All,
I’ve been using these for years. They are made of the softest material of all that have been mentioned. A little pricey, but have lasted for years. I use both the 3 and 4 cm. 

https://www.naturalhorseworldstore.com/slowfeed-hay-nets/
--
Robyn & Toons
North Bay, CA

April 2016

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Robyn%20and%20Toons

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9117

 


Pergolide

Reta Heaslip
 

I have a concern regarding increasing Pergolide before getting the bloodwork results back (drawn September 18, sent to IDEXX). Whistler is on 1.5 mg of Pergolide. The barn owner has observed on several occasions that he lacks energy in his daily routine, for example walking from the lounge area to the gate and/or walking out for a hack. I have also noticed on occasion that he lacks energy during a ride and there looks to be some muscle loss in his topline. There are no other clinical symptoms that I am aware of. I am travelling out of country with Whistler on a riding vacation tomorrow for a week and would like to up his Pergolide given the symptoms and the fact that we are in seasonal rise. Is it safe to double the dosage and bump up to 3 mg and then adjust the dosage accordingly once the bloodwork results are available? I only have 1.5 mg capsules.
--
Reta
Sep 7
Gananoque, ON, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Reta%20and%20Whistler .

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035


Re: Swollen Sheath- Dr. Kellon?

Chris Pennbo
 

Here is my modified signature with the photo link
--
-Chris
May, 2019  Big Bear Lake, California
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Monte 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=95892  


Re: Swollen Sheath- Dr. Kellon?

Chris Pennbo
 

I posted a pic from June, a pic from July, and will post one of recent soon.  I could NOT find a way to change the titles on the pics even following the directions. Can you advise?
--
-Chris
May, 2019  Big Bear Lake, California
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Chris%20and%20Monte  .

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