Date   

Re: water filter to take out iron

gypsylassie
 

Hi Jill, I have a friend, also a fellow member here, who uses one of the filters that connect to the hydrant in her barn (like the RV ones) and while I don't think she's actually tested the water, her horse's coat lost that brassy look and became dark and beautiful.  So she figured it was working.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL



On Dec 14, 2019, at 3:36 PM, Jill, Khari & Jetty in Idaho via Groups.Io <kharimom2001@...> wrote:

Has anyone tested the iron levels in water filtered through one of these inexpensive, hose-end filters?
--
Jill, Khari & Jetty in Idaho

 

NRC 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jill%20and%20Khari 

 


Re: End of Year Letter

Joy V
 

I've signed up for monthly support.  It's not much, and I really wish I could afford a whole lot more, but it's what I can do.  Thank you Dr. Kellon.  I really appreciate you and everyone in this group.  Happy holidays to you all.
--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Re: End of Year Letter

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Thank you, Trisha. That was my first book! My focus was actually performance horses then, but the older horse has always been a special love.  So much has changed. It's exciting and incredibly rewarding to work helping older horses and the wonderful people who care for them. None of this would be possible without all of you and the feedback/data you provide.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: LB very lame! Winter laminitis? LaminOx?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Sue,

I agree with Lavininia's list of factors. It's safe to say he is a  metformin failure at this point and I would suggest talking to your vet about trying canagliflozin (Invokana). I would be happy to e-mail a file of background information to your vet. The diet needs work but rather risk a  negative energy balance in a  mini when the metabolism is so poorly controlled I'd try canagliflozin first.  Continue LaminOX and warming measures.

I don't want to give you something else to worry about but be careful about letting the goats have access to the TC, especially Low Starch.They are much more sensitive to copper than horses.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: Insulinwise

celestinefarm
 

Lori,
Since you tested before and after you began Insulinwise , and received results that were positive for Dusty, then I would plan on keeping them on it.  I would think that trying to copy the same formula via purchasing ingredient separately is not likely to produce the same result as the commercial product is providing for you. You may not be able to purchase the exact same quality of ingredients they are using, and they would also be buying those ingredients in large quantities, getting a price break. 
You have lab values that demonstrate Insulinwise is working in your particular situation.  Good for you and for Dusty and Ab. 

There are no absolutes with horses.  There have been horses on the list in the past that carry higher than desirable insulin levels, but have managed to stay sound. Founder isn't just a single disfunction, you can have fantastic insulin levels, but a poor trim , length between trims, etc. can create a mechanical founder with identical lameness in the horse. Likewise , you can have higher insulin numbers that typical , but with a very correct trim on a horse, it will tolerate that insulin level with much less damage to the feet and no functional lameness.  

Numbers are goals, but I don't support the idea that if your horse isn't reaching those goals despite doing as much as you can to lower insulin , provide exercise, etc. that the horse is doomed to founder, etc. You can help lessen the odds of founder by keeping as precise a trim on the horse as possible, protecting their feet from hard or broken ground with boots, and making sure they don't have large spikes in insulin, such as they would have if given high carb treats, etc. 
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: LB very lame! Winter laminitis? LaminOx?

Sue Froehlich
 

Thank you, Lavinia and Kirsten, for getting back to me.  It's stressful dealing with this, as you know too well.

He gets Triple Crown Safe Starch chopped forage exclusively.  (He always refused the TC timothy cubes--I couldn't get him on them last spring. Noted in his case history.)  It has a balancer pellet mixed in it--which he ignores and it drops to the bottom uneaten.  (ok, some are probably eaten, but he doesn't hoover them even in good times.) I have a sample of VT Blend enroute, to see if he'll eat that. At this point for supplements & meds, if I don't actively make it a paste and put it in his mouth, it isn't going in.

From Triple Crown's website:
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/NSC-page_web020819.pdf
It lists the product as having 6.1% starch + esc.  I thought I was ok with that?  (Dr K had written some concern for fat content on it, in the exchanges 3/2019)

I was thinking about getting bloodwork done, to see where insulin and ACTH are right now.  I'll look into that for this week.

I'll start figuring out the additional boots, blanketing.  I have a lined waterproof shell for him, but now I'm concerned if I put that on him, it will flatten his fluff and he'll lose what insulation he's got?

Metformin:  6000 mg, 2x/day.  Total 12,000 mg daily.

Thanks for the support--seriously!!

Sue








--
Sue Froehlich and LB Thunder
Williamsburg, MA
2017
Sue & LB's file folder
Sue & LB's photo folder


Re: water filter to take out iron

 

Has anyone tested the iron levels in water filtered through one of these inexpensive, hose-end filters?
--
Jill, Khari & Jetty in Idaho

 

NRC 2010

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jill%20and%20Khari 

 


Re: Hay

gypsylassie
 

Hi Trisha, if we feed two feeds, hay, beet pulp, hay cubes, we  end up with a meal that is the average of the different s/s percentages.   So if we feed 2 lbs of 6% hay and 2 lbs of 8% hay together, we have a meal of 4 lbs with an s/s of 7%.  

Amy, the only thing that could be a sticking point would be if the starch of either hay were above 4%.  I don't think starch soaks out the way sugar does, and it converts 100% to glucose while the sugars convert to 50% glucose.   So 4% starch is as high as we like to see.   Now if one hay has a high starch number and the other is quite low, feeding the two together should work ok.   
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL


Re: End of Year Letter

Nancy C
 

Beautifully stated Trisha.

Thank you so much for your support.

Hugs to Hope and Dolly.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: LB very lame! Winter laminitis? LaminOx?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sue, so sorry to hear about LB's pain.  While I am the last person to add a blanket to a horse that grows a good thick coat and has shelter...if he's not moving he's not able to run around and warm up his extremities, plus as a little guy he has less thermal mass, so I definitely agree with Lavinia that he needs a blanket, especially now.  Also agree on the diet change...please do whatever it takes to get him on guaranteed low s+s food if you can.  I watched my horse struggle with pain all last winter and I didn't know what to do at the time....in post-ECIR hindsight, his hay was likely making everything worse, and that is something I could have improved on if I had known.

I hope to hear he feels better soon, good luck!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: End of Year Letter

Trisha DePietro
 


-- 35 years ago, I didn't have this website or information available and I struggled with my Cushings pony...the vets couldn't help me- none of the drugs worked and getting the Pergolide to get into the horse was so challenging....it was heartbreaking....I kept my pony going for 14 years, it was not easy, but Dr. Kellon had written a book back then called " The Older Horse"  and she talked about when it would be time to let go...she talked about Quality of life and I would read that chapter every time we had a set back or another bout of colic or laminitis- it was the best information....I was always able to rehab her back to her baseline....and as the years went on of course her new normal baseline shifted. In the end, I think I made the right decision to let her go and it was because of Dr. Kellon's book....after that horrible 14 years....I vowed that I would never go through that again with another horse, ever. And I would euthanize if I got positive test results....well, funny how life works. BOTH of my  new horses tested positive for IR and Cushings! And I said to myself, I have to Euthanize them! There is no hope! But my vet at the time said, I didn't have to! She told me about this website and how much it has helped her as a veterinarian and a horseowner...and when I looked it up and found that it was Dr. Kellon? I was soooo happy! I knew it would be a great website, a factual, research based plethora of information and I knew I would be ok....scared to move forward with this, but I would be ok and more importantly, I think my horses are safe too! So, I am happy to donate and also want to say to Dr. Kellon and all of the vets and support people - THANK YOU for doing this...You are making a difference beyond what you know....
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: increase water intake/ salt block use, IR horse/ dr kellon please

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Daisy, I'm sure you've thought of it but just in case...when winter hits and I turn on the water heater in the tub a tonne of water is lost to evaporation, making it look like my horse is drinking more.  That could explain the reason for no obvious increase in urine, although urine output is really hard to measure.  Any chance that's what's happening for you?

If you want to know for sure that he's consuming more salt you could put out measured table salt instead and document how often you have to refill it.  I find my horse eats his loose salt when he's out of hay and waiting for his next meal, probably a boredom thing for him.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Hay

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Amy. My understanding is that soaking removes approximately 30% of the sugar/starch....So, if you soaked the 11% hay, you would reduce it to about 8%...I think you are asking if the two hays can be fed together....I think if you combine them into one feeding you have to add the two SS percentages together which would bring you to 14% total for that feeding...I will be interested to see what others think....I could be wrong, but if you feed them at the same time,you have to add them together....if you feed them separately in different servings you don't add them together.

Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: LB very lame! Winter laminitis? LaminOx?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sue,

Sorry LB isn't doing well again. Thanks for updating the history - it's a real help.

The high insulin is the big issue - that has been a problem all along and has only briefly shown improvement (3/2019 down to 72.52IU/ml), which was still in the high risk for laminitis range. It looks like his ACTH was just barely within normal range at the end of Aug, so it definitely went up out of range thru the rise period. This would have driven his insulin up even higher than the 189uIUI/ml reading at the end of Aug. Your observations of his lack of movement and disinterest with food and life in general coincide with the seasonal rise and likely rising discomfort levels. Colder weather will also raise insulin levels even tho his ACTH may have been backing down. Plus the cold can cause painful vaso-constriction in an individual who has already compromised circulatory function from previous damage. All of this likely created the perfect storm for the little guy.

Looks like his diet is all Triple Crown Safe Starch now - is that correct? Is this the pelleted feed or the chopped forage? If this is the case, it is not helping his insulin levels as neither has a guaranteed ESC+Starch of less than 10%. Diet needs to be excruciatingly tight with the insulin levels he has been showing. His BCS would do best kept at 4-4.5.

Any possibility of getting blood work done now to see what everything is doing?

Starting the Laminox may have precipitated abscess movement, which could explain the worsening of his lameness. It could also be coincidental as temps have been dropping during this time too. Keep his feet and legs warm: padded boots over socks or lined shipping-type boots over hoof boots; blanket him so that his body doesn't need to shunt blood flow away from the extremities to keep his core warm. Keep food and water conveniently located so he isn't forced to move any more than he is comfortable doing.

Is he being given the Metformin once or twice per day? While Metformin can help to lower insulin, it won't counteract the effects of a diet that isn't as tight as it should be.

Hang in there. Give LB a hug for us.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Insulinwise

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Also, I should add that the experts here on this site do not believe that Insulinwise is the answer you’re looking for. We all wish there were such a supplement. And if there ever is, you will see it first on this site.

Cindy


--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: Insulinwise

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Question number one. Yes, you can buy the ingredients yourself. But if you believe this product is the answer, you would have to get the formula just right, the same percentages of each ingredient, and I don’t know how you would do that.

When we buy a packaged product, part of what we’re paying for is the convenience that they have already gathered, measured, and packaged the ingredients in a convenient form.

Question number two. The safe level for no laminitis as often given on this site is insulin below 10, and possibly 12.  If they are over that, they are at high risk for laminitis.

Cindy



Re: Hay

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Amy,

Yes, it's fine to soak then use that hay throughout the day.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Stabul 1 Plus OK to give to ECIR horses in work?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Laura,

ECIR does not recommend the Stabul 1 Plus for any horse, esp. one that is IR/PPID, due to the higher fat levels (upper limit for acceptable fat is 4%). The ingredients include both soybean meal for the higher protein and vegetable oil,which has an inverted omega 3 to 6 profile.

In your situation, it would be best to discuss this with whomever is doing your mineral balancing as that individual will be most familiar with all the ins-and-outs of your diets.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: increase water intake/ salt block use, IR horse/ dr kellon please

Michele Einarson
 

Hi Daisy:  I had the same scenario when winter hit and exercise tapered off:  My horse and mule were constantly on the salt blocks and drinking water to match.  Per Dr. Kellon's suggestion, I removed the salt blocks and supplement with iodized loose salt.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/55937764#243192

--
Michele & Mosey IR, Feb 2019
Reno, NV, USA
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Michele%20and%20Mosey
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=88791


Insulinwise

Lorismorgans
 

Well 
Ab was off insulinwise for 3 month. Insulin went back up to 65,. Dusty who was kept on Insulinwise, but increased dose dropped to 90.
 Vet want to put Dusty on higher dose and put Ab back on Insulinwise dose.
 She thinks I should keep them on it for life since in the 2 years of blood test this is the only thing that has significantly dropped their levels.
My question is since they give the active ingredients can I just buy the bulk ingredients  and add them to their diet?
   2nd question. With your data, cant you tell us the average insulin level a horse founders?
  Can some horses carry high insulin levels and that just be their norm? I thought my boys were high (I know they are ), but when I read the levels of others on this site, they seem low.
Count my blessings for you all. I know my horses would have crashed without you all sharing your experience and wisdom.
I will get this new bloodwork loaded into their history.
--
Lori  Able & Bodie

 

2016

 

Redding,CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lori%20and%20Able%20-%20Bodie%20-%20Dusty

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6053&p=Name,,,50,2,0,0 .

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