Date   

Re: Muenster Milling and Extrusion Process

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I don't know if this is the article Dawn is thinking of but it's good for showing why FiberForce is a good choice for our horses:

http://cavaloruniversity.com/the-glycemic-index-of-cavalor-feeds/

They have a dealer locator on their site http://www.cavalor.com/us-en/where-to-buy/locations   (results can be slow to come up).
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: Platium Performance

Anthie Booras
 

As someone who body clips professionally every client I’ve had that feeds their horse Platinum Performance has had a horse with a sun bleached coat. That alone tells me the balance of minerals is off. 

 
--
- Anthie

Northern California
August 2015


Re: Sweet P meds second request

 

Kathie,
Have you had his ACTH tested this winter? If he is thin and low energy I would think it wise to have his ACTH tested. 
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: Sweet P meds second request

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

Nov of 2018 his insulin was 42.8 reference range 28-390, so I guess vet just kept a check on the glucose from there on because the insulin was not high. I can't afford to have more blood tested as I have 4 horses who are needing it.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Urgent advice please. Think I overdosed Savannah with pergoloide.

Lorna Cane
 

Another way to save on shavings is by using the deep bedding method. 

https://www.horseandhound.co.uk/features/deep-litter-bedding-horses-604511

This article mentions breathing/dust issues with this method. It also mentions urine smell. I have never had any of this, and have used this method for decades, with numerous horses.
Important to be sure,though, that wet shavings are covered by dry. No odour.
Here cleanout is done in the Spring . If horses have to be stabled at night over the Summer, cleanout is also done in Fall.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Sweet P meds second request

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 


-- I actually just found more blood work I hadn't posted in his CH. I'll try to get it done. In Feb 2019 glucose was 14.4  March 2019 it was 15.8  March 27 2019 it was 7.2   Nov.2018 insulin was 42.8. He is still thin, but has a good appitite and eats his hay well. Is not so keen on his bucket food, but usually almost finishes it. He doesn't have much energy and is not good to ride anymore. He bucks and bolts with the kids now.
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Cold weather and insulin

Tanna
 

Thank you very much Nancy! 

From the 2015 conference: 
Winter laminitis may be defined as bilateral front hoof pain that develops during the cold months in horses with a history of IR, with or without Cushing’s, with typically no obvious precipitating event.
I suppose there is a possibility (?) of a non IR, horse who has a history of terrible feet and mechanical damage contributing to reduced blood flow to the hoof, to experience pain but is this typically a condition that effects a horse with IR only? Dr. K indicates in her proceedings that a "normal horse" with "normal circulation" can adapt to the cold... "normal" being non IR?

Also, in reference to the study: 

The ECIR Group winter laminitis APF trial used 10 horses with a history of winter laminitis not controlled by blanketing, wraps, and boots. The basic Diagnosis, Diet and Trim (DDT) protocol was in place. ACTH was controlled in PPID subjects. The diet was IR appropriate. Hoof form was appropriate. All of these horses had their hoof pain eliminated by using APF, 10 mls once or twice daily.
The power of APF is pretty awesome!

For those of us who do not have easy access to APF is there a specific component of APF that helps most with this? In Canada, for example, I have found a lesser adaptogen (EnduraGin) which contains several of the same ingredients but at a lesser potency. I wonder if it would also help some?

Also, in theory, (sorry it's early) would hot water hosing of the lower limbs help in cases of acute pain? 

Thanks! 

--
Tanna 

April 2019, (Yahoo Group member 2008)
Langley, BC, Canada

Tula's Case History 


Re: Urgent advice please. Think I overdosed Savannah with pergoloide.

Bonnie
 

Pat, re the costs and having to scrimp and save, I hear you! Re shavings, I found a way to reduce the amount needed. I buy softwood stove pellets, fill a pail 1/3 full of pellets, and add a kettle of hot water. They instantly fluff up to fill the pail. I put this fluff in the centre of the stall and arrange the shavings over it. Most of the urine gets soaked up and forms a "pancake". This prevents the wetness from getting spread all through the stall. More efficient than using loose shavings only. BTW hardwood pellets are not nearly so absorbent.
In this area pellet stoves are common as backup heating in homes so pellets are readily available. However, the store stops bringing them in during summer so I must stock up in spring.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Platium Performance

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

They don't  give a breakdown of sugar and starch.  Not sure what to make of the analysis since their numbers add up to 150 but the serving is supposed to be 123 grams.  At best, protein is only 17% and the 21 grams is too small  to make a difference. Vitamin and mineral levels also very low.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Re: Favorite herbal for horses

Bonnie
 

Jessica, a small animal vet has a travelling clinic and comes to my small remote town, and does the blood draw for me as I am not a vet tech. I then tale the sample to the local hospital where the lab tech spins and prepares it for me. Then I drive to the nearest city where my horse vet sends the sample on for testing. Is there a hospital that might help you?
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Sweet P meds second request

Lorna Cane
 

Sorry.
Kathie.
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Sweet P meds second request

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Kathy,

Do you have current insulin numbers?
All I see in CH is from December, 2017....idexx  35.7 ulU/ml , Range 4.5-20

You say his insulin is not high, so I'm assuming you just haven't recorded more recent numbers?
Thanks.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Sweet P meds second request

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Invokana lowers glucose by causing it to be excreted in the urine. The lower glucose burden then eases the demand for insulin. Is that 2017 insulin the only one you have?  How is he doing?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com  2 for 1 course sale
EC Owner 2001


Platium Performance

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

Has anyone used this supplement for IR horses? I have a boarder with a 27 year old IR horse and she has just started feeding him this. On the ingredients there is sugar and molasses and whey which would not be good for IR horses. She seems to think it will be the miracle cure for the horse and he won't need anything else except his hay.  It is supposed to have all the vitamins and amino acids in the correct amounts for a IR horsse. It doesn't look good to me, but I have to tred softly to try to get her to just feed him the ECIR diet,(which I have had him on since he came here).  He had really soft, wet manure before and now if has firmed up and is actually in formed balls, but he has "squirts" of liquid both before and after passing manure. She is most concerned about this and it always looking for and trying new cures for this. Any suggestions? Or do I just turn a blind eye and let her do what she wants, he is her horse, but with 4 comprised horses of my own, I know what she is doing is harmful to the horse.
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Muenster Milling and Extrusion Process

celestinefarm
 

To add to Nancy's comments and Dr. Kellons, there may be some confusion with members regarding pelleting vs.extrusion.  Extruded products are made by mixing the ingredients together than briefly cooking them under heat and pressure, which then gelatinizes the starches and I believe also breaks down the bonds in proteins. It is then pushed through a die which forms it into a pellet, crumble, disc, whatever and is then cooled.  Pelleting simply mixes the ingredients, then presses the mixture through dies while steaming the dies allows it to stick together to form the pellet.

My understanding is that extruded products, as Nancy points out, are more easily digested in the stomach of the horse, and therefore the starches are more easily digested and brought into the blood stream.  Therefore, it is less likely, when fed in appropriate amounts, to end up pushed on through to the hind gut, where it creates changes and problems with the flora in those areas, contributing to gas production and possibly colic.  This is an advantage in products produces with higher amounts of starch, such as oats, wheat middlings, etc. being fed to horses with high caloric needs such as competition horses, endurance horses, race horses, etc.  Cavalor did a study in which they demonstrated that horses fed their products that include extruded and puffed grains maintained steady levels of insulin in a 24 hour period, as opposed to the competitor whose cracked and whole grains caused up and down insulin spikes. ( I have that study somewhere , can't find it at the moment) . Which again is great for competition horses without IR issues.  However, we don't want raised consistent insulin in IR horses, we want as low as possible consistent insulin, so the most ideal situation would be extruded ingredients that are extremely low in starch. And those products are really almost non existent other than the ones listed here on the site. 

Right now, Buckeye has introduced Senior feed that is extruded. The advantages are listed above and extruding also allows the pellets to take up water immediately, leading to a soft, crumbly mush meal for horses with poor teeth. Unfortunately, even though they claim it is great for metabolic horses, it also has a max NSC of 14.5%. I see Triple Crown is getting ready to release new senior formulas( to compete, I'm sure) that are extruded and are being marketed as great for IR horses, no NSC listed yet, or breakdown of ESC and starch.

To be fair, the feed companies are trying to produce products that are better for IR, metabolic, easy keeper back yard horses than the 35% sweet feed stuff they all used to sell. But almost all are still not there yet. I don't know if it is that it is tough to produce an ESC/Starch product that is palatable under 10% or if the companies nutritionists still don't agree that metabolic horses need to stay under 10%. Non IR horses obviously benefit from a higher fat, higher calorie feed when they become older with poor teeth, etc.   But for your own IR horse, you need to read ingredients and understand the marketing hype.





--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Sweet P meds second request

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

I am wanting to know why Sweet P is on Invokana to lower insulin when his is not high, but his glucose was very high. I read here that Invokana is for lowering insulin, but does it also lower glucose? If it does lower both, why would you want to lower his insulin? Doesn't he need some to process the glucose?
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Cold weather and insulin

Nancy C
 

One more....

Rercent blog by Dr Kellon on adaption to cold

https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2019/12/08/adaptation-to-cold-weather/

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Turn Out Exercise vs. Low Iron Hay - How Important in the Big Picture . . .

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Jennifer. I think we all struggle with the balance of what the gold standard is to treating our PPID and IR horses and our reality of their living situation. When its a boarding situation its a little difficult to get things to where they are "perfect", because we have little control over the overall process of care.  So, I try to weigh things out in my mind of what has most benefit and worth the effort for the horse and seek the balance between the good and the not so good. 

So, when I look at ANY horse/pony 24/7 turnout with windbreaks and/or access to shelter is "perfect". Does it decrease their insulin? Dr. Kellon would have to weigh in on that, but anytime you give an organism what they need, stress is decreased both at a cellular level and an emotional level. I know stress causes cortisol to go up and probably inturn insulin reacts to the increase in cortisol, but again, vets would need to chime in on that physiological response.

Whatever you can do to increase his time outside of the stall and increase his activity would be ideal. He gets his good hay at night and I think thats great!  the high iron hay is outside, but he also gets to be outside with friends and play and move and forage and emotionally be "a Pony". A muzzle is a great thing to try and there are many different kinds on the market.  I don't know what he will do with a muzzle, every horse is different,  you just have to try it and see. If you can find someone to partially lease him, they could provide the additional movement/exercise. If you can squeek out 15 minutes extra per week then that's fine. if not, then you are doing the best you can. If you can't do a dry lot, again, try to find other things that balance out the lack of a dry lot. Movement is always key to horses/ponies.

he's got good feet- which is great! and you are able to have a dialogue with the barn manager which is also a plus!  When I struggle with if "I am doing enough or doing it right"....I go back to the diet, trim, exercise protocol from here and see what I can do to improve the situation. If I have done everything I can- then I am good with it. 

Selling is a challenge...but so is keeping him. I commend you for hanging in there with him and doing everything you can to make his  health better. 

I wish I was closer, I bet he would make a super carriage driving pony! 


--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: Favorite herbal for horses

Nancy C
 

Thank you Jessica for updating your history.

The use of small animal vet is one I would explore.  Some will not help you but that is not my experience.  I was not five hours from an equine vet, but far enough that I needed a back up plan.  My small animal vet was very willing to spin and send in the labs for me.  I'm just a horsewoner, but luckily had three equine vets in my life wiling to teach me how to draw bloods myself. When I explained to my small animal vet that I was working with an equine vet and this group, and was willing to pay her for her time and the submission to Cornell, she jumped right in.

Also used Blueberry Muffins.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Welcome Message for Leslie Cobb

 
Edited

Hello Leslie'
Every new member receives our detailed "New Member" message after they have posted their first message. I know you have a signature created (thanks for getting that done) and you have joined the Case History group. Do you have a horse who is Insulin Resistant or PPID? Some new members are not sure if their horse/pony/mini/donkey is IR/PPID or not.  Some members have joined for other reasons. Since you joined the Case History sub-group I am guessing you may have an equine that you want to help.

We ask new members to read thru the information below. Open the links (in blue) by clicking on them. If you haven't been to our ECIRHorse.org website yet then that is a good place to start. I suggest reading the DDT&E section first if you have a horse needing help right now.

You received an email with details about downloading  and creating a case history for your equine. I personally found it easier for me to first print out a blank case history form and write in the details about my horse's health, diet, exercise, etc. (I used a pencil!) Once I had gathered that info I went ahead and typed it into the case history form and uploaded it.

Your Case History Folder is your storage area. You can add sub-folders within your main folder for organization. For instance a folder for hay tests, lab blood tests, etc. The Case History folder can have "documents" (.doc, .xls) uploaded into it.

If you want to upload any type of photos, xrays, etc, you will need to create a folder in the "Photos" section of the Case History sub-group. 

We ask members to create a case history for their equines so that our moderators and members can responsibly post safe suggestions. Knowing your equines diet, test results, and health history provides the information needed.


Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 

--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album

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