Date   

Re: Stabul1

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Dona,

As Lorna already mentioned - we really need some more information from you.  Is the diet still the same as it was when you had the bloodwork done or did you change it after you got the results back?  If you changed it, did you have any follow up bloodwork done to see if his levels improved?  It could be just a coincidence that he started to have an issue after you started the Stabul 1 but without more information we're just guessing.




Re: Chasteberry question

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

There is none. It is a carry-over recommendation from dosing in mares when used to help them with "mare issues".

In PPID, it is dosed daily with no breaks. Whether you stop it for the winter to allow a full coat to grow in or not (if it is working for your horse to help with shedding) is also an option.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


NEW MEMBER - QUESTIONS

snowman0157@...
 

NEW MEMBER here.....Been reading thru all the great content and just uploaded my first stab at Case History which gives the short version of my Horse's history and current status with Laminitis and IR.  Implementing ECIR emergency diet suggestions to further refine the management steps we were already taking.

A few Questions have arisen in my mind for starters (I'm sure I will have many more)

1)  Regarding amount of hay to feed --  For a horse that needs to lose weight but is currently very restricted on exercise (10 minutes walking per day)....Does the 2% of target weight rule still apply or should I be feeding less than that?
I  totally understand that I do not want to his metabolism to go into starvation mode  but he is currently getting almost zero exercise and I don't want him to start regaining weight.  

Background: For several months our primary/previous vet had me continue to feed full ration of 'low starch' Purina feed(mistake, I think)  and 12 lbs of soaked hay daily....For Horse weighing ~1060 lbs +/-.   With new a vet now and we are off of the Feed now and on only Hay + Ration Balancer,  but I was continuing to feed only 12 lbs of hay daily in order to get the weight down....and he has lost weight.  
Read information on the ECIR website about feeding 1.5% of current wt or 2% of Target weight daily (horse now tapes @~960 lbs) and target weight(per previous vet) is 900 lbs so therefore I should be feeding 18lbs of Hay Daily?   He will eat as much as I provide for sure.

2) Regarding Frequency of Feeding hay --  Am I correct in thinking that more frequent/smaller feedings are beneficial in controlling Insulin spikes?
I have made hay feeders that 'drop' small servings of hay numerous times each day/night in paddock and stall -- just trying to confirm that this is ok/good for an IR Horse?   I also feed with slow feed nets, but slow is a relative term and he will eat constantly until hay net is empty, so I'm trying to prevent him eating for 45-mine or so then standing around for hours with nothing until he gets next meal and I assume big Insulin spike, if that makes sense.

3) Sounds like exercise is very Key....What should I ask my Vet about condition of the hoof/lamina in order to determine if Exercise can be increased?  
If Insulin is still high even with managed diet, what level of exercise is permissible?  

4) I'd like to have ECIR expert balance my hay and make supplement recommendations, but the hay test I had done by Equi-Analytical(see case history) was not #603 (did it before I discovered ECIR), so I need to pull another sample and order the proper test

Thanks in Advance for all your help.
--
Joe S. in TX 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joe%20and%20Shiloh


Re: Legend for arthritis

 

Kathie, if you search for Legend in the Files, you will come up with this.link.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Legend for arthritis

KATHIE DORVAL <bokayarabians@...>
 

Does anyone know if Legend injections are safe for Ir horses?
--
Kathie with Libby and Sweet P
Cobble Hill, BC, Canada
Aug 2018
Case Histories
Target Photos
Sweet P Photos
Addy Photos
Cherokee Photos


Re: Chasteberry question

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Nancy,

I've always used it every day , and haven't been aware of the break in dosing.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Chasteberry question

 

I am curious to those that use chasteberry for cushing horses. What is the rationale for giving it 3 weeks on and 1 week off? I have been reading up on it for my suspected old STB gelding who is 29 and and his only symptom is the long thick coat with not shedding out. Is it better to give it everyday or do they need a break from it?
--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: Stabul1

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Dona,

Can you update your CH ? It doesn't really show a current picture of diet.
Last update was June ,2019 . 
If everything is exactly the same as last update,maybe put current date in space for last updated, so we know not to ask?

Have you had any blood  testing done since last May?

Hoping to get to the bottom of this new issue, with you.


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Louis the mini - Starting on Pergolide

Glenys
 

I am getting Louis' feet xrayed late today, and I expect to have the files by Saturday.  I'll post them as soon as I have them.  In the meantime, I've taken more photos of his feet (in his files within next 5 minutes) and I'm hoping Lavinia you can start to get me on the right track particularly with his heels.  I trimmed his feet 5 days ago, which was 4 weeks after the Trimmer.  I have held off getting her to do more until the xrays are through.  I have a continued concern about his heels.  He is still in boots & pads as he is continues to be tender without them.  He is in the yards (on carpet to stop the grass shoots) and deep bedding available in a stable.  He is with his mate another mini.

He is on day 5 of the Pergolide and so far he continues to eat.  I have had the hay analysed and Dr Kellon has done a mineral balancing and advised the hay is okay, however she recommended I continue to soak to reduce the calories.  She believes he is 50kg over weight.  However he has lost 8 kgs since I last weighed him.  I'll update his CH to reflect this.

I'm keen to get advice / your opinion about his heels in particular (feet generally of course) so I am well armed prior to the vet and trimmer.  My vet has been adamant we shouldn't drop  his heels much if at all as it will ' put pressure on his DDF'.  I have now had advice from Dr Kellon that this is basically a nonsense as he doesn't have any conformational issues (eg forward at the knees).  

Thank you so much.  I don't know how to specifically tag Lavinia into this so if someone can help me get the message to her quickly that would be appreciated.
--
Glenys and Louis 
January 2020, Paekakariki, Wellington, New Zealand

Louis CH -https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Glenys%20and%20Louis
Louis Photos -https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=239216


Stabul1

donabcalhoun@...
 

Has anyone else tried Stabul1 and found it did not work well for their very sensitive / uncompensated IR horse?  I was excited to see Stabul1 more available and through Chewy since my TSC couldn't figure out how to order it.  I started it at a very small amount about 1 month ago - 1lb per day which is well below what the target but my guy is always super sensitive and we need to stay at or below 10% so I wanted to go slow.  Nothing else has changed in his environment, no grass, no other feed/supplement changes, same hay, etc etc.  He started looking like a laminitic event was brewing and I had the vet out yesterday.  He agreed that we are in the early stages of what appears to be another founder and needed to back out of my prior plan to go commercial with the Stabul1.  I have taken him back to the emergency diet and am re-balancing his diet leveraging feed xl but focusing on supplements that do not include any alfalfa meal which so many commercial items do.  

It is the only potential trigger I can find, just curious if anyone else has had a similar experience.  

Thanks!

--
Dona and Guinness
December 2017, Rougemont, NC
Guinness Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dona%20and%20Guinness 
Guinness Photo Link:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=69379


Re: Selenium supplement

 

My daughter's mare, Lyric, is PPID and PSSM.  She required lots of E and selenium when she was working. We used the selenium yeast from Platinum and later the Uckele Sel +E linked below.  Once Lyric's PPID was under control and she was semi-retired her selenium and E needs were reduced.  Hope this helps.
Nancy Reed and Jazzi
March 2013
San Diego County

https://uckele.com/e-se-10lbs.html


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

Lucinda Vette
 

Thanks Dr Kellon, for your response.

when you say don’t delay mineral balancing - are you talking about hay analysis and supplements? Or some other test /labs for Juilliard? Hay analysis and mineral balancing was done in September and she’s been on the IR diet with balanced supplements since then.

Many thanks!
--
Lucinda, Pharrah (IR), Juilliard (PPID), and Cimarron- Amado, AZ, 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lucinda%20and%20Juilliard


Re: Sugar and starch debate

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

What exactly is super high? I'm not sure what that would have to do with the inaccurate statements made either - something about the new evidence that was claimed?

There is actually nothing new about these claims that high WSC in Canadian hays is causing the problems. We have been hearing that since the early days of this group - always with no proof or even good case evidence that it's not high insulin causing the issues.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Tue, Feb 11, 2020 at 05:22 PM, Lucinda Vette wrote:
1) Someone suggested starting with compounded pergolide until she is through any pergolide veil, and also until her acth levels are down. Do you have a preference or recommendation regarding that? I am inclined to start that way because it seems like a more cautious approach, and that is how I'm feeling right now. But it would be helpful to have your insight. Also, my mare HATES injections.
IME, cabergoline and pergolide side effects are very similar.  Some horses react more to pergolide, some react more to cabergoline. It's not predictable. If you get your horse on an effective dose of pergolide with side effects controlled, you may have to start all over again if you switch to cabergoline - and vice versa. You can taper up slowly with either one.
2) When I get her tested for insulin, is it correct that I should do insulin, glucose, and leptin? 
Leptin is optional.
3) When testing for insulin, should I use a vet that can use Cornell for the lab? ACTH was tested by Idexx.
My personal preference is for Cornell.
4) Money is not unlimited, and I have potentially two other horses in need of additional blood work. With that in mind, how important is it that I get her iron levels tested at, I believe you said, KSU. Or even at all. Could I treat her for the PPID and then look at iron levels when I retest her ATCH levels?
  Yes, you can check iron levels at any time - but don't delay balancing the minerals.
5) Since the lab work was done at Idexx, do I need to stay with that lab for any further testing?
I would switch.
6) I have another horse, Cimarron, who tested positive for PPID in the fall. He was also anhidrotic at the time. The recommendation was to hold off on meds and retest him. He has been retested and was in the normal range (25 with less than 35 being normal). Should he be rested using Cornell?
I would do TRH stimulation or domperidone response if his ACTH was borderline in the fall. Otherwise, it's not at all unusual for early cases to test negative outside the seasonal rise period.
Should I test his insulin, glucose, and leptin and try to determine of PPID is an issue even though he tested in the normal range last week? The biggest symptom I see with him is the same I saw in Juilliard, that being lethargy. Something is not quite right or normal, it is the lethargy, and the previous anhidrosis, and then just a feeling that something subtle has changed in him. 
It  doesn't sound like there's any pressing need to do those tests right now but without details that's hard to tell. Definitely pin down that PPID diagnosis since the history is highly suspicious.

 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Sugar and starch debate

Alicia Harlov
 

Thank you so much Dr. Kellon! She ended up private messaging me after our group debate and saying she apologized for coming off rude but she's passionate about the topic. (Well I am too! Lol)...

She said in Western Canada they see hay super high in WSC which I "wouldn't see in Northeast US" so I wouldn't attribute issues to WSC that they do. 🤔

--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

 
Edited

Pretty much, Lucinda, although I need to clarify a point.  I would not want to suggest that cabergoline gives better results.  When I switched Logo from pergolide to cabergoline, he was on a very high dose of pergolide and what I saw upon giving cabergoline leads me to believe he had become ‘resistant’ to pergolide.  That was not something I had considered before reading an ECIR post.  The very same thing might have happened with cabergoline had I started with it.
Unless you have a specific need for an injectable version, I would stick with pergolide and reevaluate as you go along..  LJ detailed some of those reasons here.  When I researched it, most of the discussion came up on the Chronicle of the Horse where owners found it more convenient when boarding.  I don’t think there is a ‘better’ choice, just whatever fits your needs better.
APF is Advanced Protection Formula, something I had never heard of until after Logo started pergolide.  It’s a collection of adaptogens, something else I had not heard of before, so I may not be the best one to try to answer that.  The thought is that it helps the body deal with stress, among other things, and helps to balance out the changes which come about when treating with pergolide or cabergoline, drugs which affect stress hormones.  Giving it for a few days before starting or increasing the dose of that type of drug seems to help them tolerate it better.  Keep giving it as long as you’re playing around with dosages.  My barn helpers call it my magic potion.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Sugar and starch debate

 

I have to agree...and this is why I love this group and Dr. Kellon for being the voices of reason with facts to back up debate. I wish I had known of this group day 1 of my journey with my mare but I am thankful that she was not long into her diagnosis and she is young enough. I pray that through continuing education and management she will live a long life that has quality. When it comes to equine metabolic issues the voices in this group are the only ones I have come to trust.

--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Lucinda,

Here are a couple of helpful pages, talking about abbreviations we use frequently.

Go to our Files, click on the first item, Start Here, and scroll down 5 , to Commonly Used Abbreviations.
Also click on the next item EC Glossary, which offers more description for each.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

Lucinda Vette
 

Thanks for the information Martha. If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting I start with pergolide at low dose, gradually bringing it to a level where her ACTH falls within a normal range. Then switch over to cabergolide (if affordable) because you had better results with cabergolide than with anything else. Is that right? I like your suggestions and have asked Dr. Kellon to weigh in a bit more. One more question, what is APF?
--
Lucinda, Pharrah (IR), Juilliard (PPID), and Cimarron- Amado, AZ, 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lucinda%20and%20Juilliard


Re: help with deciding how to move forward - new PPID diagnosis

Lucinda Vette
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,

Thank you for your reply. I have a couple more questions as a result of your answers, and some of the other responses to my questions.

1) Someone suggested starting with compounded pergolide until she is through any pergolide veil, and also until her acth levels are down. Do you have a preference or recommendation regarding that? I am inclined to start that way because it seems like a more cautious approach, and that is how I'm feeling right now. But it would be helpful to have your insight. Also, my mare HATES injections.

2) When I get her tested for insulin, is it correct that I should do insulin, glucose, and leptin? 
3) When testing for insulin, should I use a vet that can use Cornell for the lab? ACTH was tested by Idexx.

4) Money is not unlimited, and I have potentially two other horses in need of additional blood work. With that in mind, how important is it that I get her iron levels tested at, I believe you said, KSU. Or even at all. Could I treat her for the PPID and then look at iron levels when I retest her ATCH levels?

5) Since the lab work was done at Idexx, do I need to stay with that lab for any further testing?

6) I have another horse, Cimarron, who tested positive for PPID in the fall. He was also anhidrotic at the time. The recommendation was to hold off on meds and retest him. He has been retested and was in the normal range (25 with less than 35 being normal). Should he be rested using Cornell? Should I test his insulin, glucose, and leptin and try to determine of PPID is an issue even though he tested in the normal range last week? The biggest symptom I see with him is the same I saw in Juilliard, that being lethargy. Something is not quite right or normal, it is the lethargy, and the previous anhidrosis, and then just a feeling that something subtle has changed in him. 

I would like to get her started on medication asap and will be talking with my vet today. Any additional information from you that can help me sort through this would be very appreciated.

Thanks,
--
Lucinda, Pharrah (IR), Juilliard (PPID), and Cimarron- Amado, AZ, 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lucinda%20and%20Juilliard