Date   

Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Lorna Cane
 

Beet pulp needs to be rinsed/soaked/rinsed but then can be fed with water to help with hydration.  I would also add plain salt directly to the beet pulp to help encourage her to drink.  "

Sherry's totally correct . I didn't mention the R/S/R protocol in my other post because I didn't think the hospital would go for that. Never assume anything. 

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused. Sigh.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

celestinefarm
 

Ok, I have no idea why my quote was blacked out, Mods?
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

celestinefarm
 
Edited

Triple Crown and virtually all major feed manufacturers follow required practices when they label a product. It's why it is so important to read labels on feeds. The following appears on Triple Crown's website under their feed page for Triple Crown Lite regarding NSC* ( notice the asterisk, which should direct you to look at the bottom of the page where the asterisk appears with the following statement)

*Estimated values determined by Equi-Analytical, Ithaca, NY. Equi-Analytical makes no claims to the accuracy of its data. Link: http://equi-analytical.com/common-feed-profiles/

***The following coefficients of variation (cv) can be associated with the carbohydrate analyses. These should reasonably account for both sampling and analytical variation, though as you know, poor sampling can lead to much larger variation. The coefficients of variation (cv) for starch is 10%, WSC is 15% and ESC is 15%. For example, a feed with a WSC value of 10% should be expected to range from 8.5 – 11.5% and a WSC value of 20% to range from 17 – 23%. In addition, there are variables on ingredients between suppliers that could be as much as an additional 5% to 10% per ingredient. Therefore, products, such as TC 30% Supplement potentially would have a smaller variation than TC Lite due to the number of bulk ingredients making up the feed (2 vs. 4).


The above is an honest answer to products from feed companies that contain numerous ingredients from numerous sources around the country. Triple Crown still doesn't have an NSC value on their new Gold products they are introducing because according to the company, they are still in the process of having sampling/analysis done from their various contract feed mills across the country to come up with an NSC range.  Remember, Triple Crown doesn't have their own singular feed mill producing their feeds anymore, that burned down several years ago and they decided not to rebuild. Instead, they contracted with mills across the country to produce feed. Well, a feed mill in CA isn't going to truck in soybean meal from Illinois, they are going to get it from as close a location as possible. Soybeans grown in one area of the country, under different climate conditions, may have different energy and protein levels. As long as it meets the guaranteed minimum on the bag label, the mill will go with it . 

Triple Crown isn't lying or deliberately deceiving horse owners regarding their products. Their marketing of these products is what it is, marketing. Triple Crown Lite is most likely a better choice for IR horses than say, Triple Crown Complete or a competitors product. But from what we know here, it's not the best choice to be fed as a stand alone supplemental feed for IR horses.  It is too variable in ESC + Starch for confirmed IR horses.

Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: when best to test horse for acth and ir if tested in the past in June

Nancy C
 

Hi Deb

I was suggesting that our new member test now due to past clinical signs, and those currently being exhibited. If I was not seeing signs making me suspicious that the PPID is not controlled, waiting to get both ACTH and insulin when it is warmer, and when you have historically been testing, would be my choice.

I believe our test of choice is still ACTH, however,  where you have been doing TRH all along, you may want to stay with that for the purpose of comparing to past years. Keeping things like, time of year, time of day, conditions prior to testing, as similar as possible allow for better judgement on the results.

As always, I bow to Dr Kellon.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


when best to test horse for acth and ir if tested in the past in June

Deborah Ide
 

I read a post saying that the best time to test for ACTH is now or soon. Insulin can be elevated by cold weather , I read, so perhaps later in the Spring would be better for that. I have for the past few years had Tara have a TRH Stim Test in June (before the 21st) and had the insulin, Glucose and Leptin test done at the same time. The TRH Stim  Test has always shown her to not be PPID but of course I know that can change.Would it be best to have the ACTH checked now (and should it be the Stim test?)and have the  insulin, Glucose and Leptin checked later on in the Spring when it is warmer? Or, should I keep the schedule I had in the past  where I had them all checked in June, before the 21st?

On another note, I have a rescued gelding (registered Morgan 16 years old) and for the last year (that is when he arrived here) I have fed him as if he is IR. Should I have him have the TRH  Stim  Test too or just an ACTH test  and the insulin,Glucose and leptin? He is not showing any overt signs of PPID or IR except that he did grow a heavy winter coat (he came from Pennsylvania)with longer hair under his jaw and he is 16 years old.

--
Deborah
November 2012
Middle Tennessee
Case History: https:/ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laurie,

Keep on breathing!  As far as Mag Ox - if there's a local feed mill in your area see if they can provide you with a bag of food grade Mag Ox.  It's not very expensive (well shouldn't be - about $1/lb seems to be average) and it lasts quite a while.  You can also buy the Uckele version and get a 5% discount if you use code ECIR at checkout - https://uckele.com/magnesium-oxide.html.  

Flax can also come from the local feed mill if they have it.  You can buy the whole seeds and grind it yourself but buying at a health food store can get expensive very quickly so finding it at a mill would be a better option.

Yes, you should stop the MSM if she's positive for IR or PPID.  The TC Lite can be replaced by beet pulp or Stabul 1.  

Telling us her current weight is helpful, but we need to know what her ideal weight would be as well.  

Beet pulp needs to be rinsed/soaked/rinsed but then can be fed with water to help with hydration.  I would also add plain salt directly to the beet pulp to help encourage her to drink.  

If you feel she needs to have a salt lick just use a plain white one - there's extra dirt in the Himalayan block (that's what causes the color change) and there may be extra iron in that as well.

If you're getting stuck with uploading information just let us know where in the process you're having an issue and we'll be able to help.



Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Shevawn Romine
 

This was at least a better answer then they gave me…which was basically,   “so what if the ESC+starch was variable and sometimes high,    the amount fed is small compared to rest of diet. “


--
Cassie and Shevawn
03/2015   Gordon, TX
CH folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shevawn%20and%20Cassie 
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=76832 


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Lorna Cane
 

Laurie, sorry to be short on answers about mag ox, and I'm not sure what your question is about flax.
But definitely add water to the beet pulp. Some horses like it soupy, some a little less wet. But feeding it dry can lead to choke....at least that was an unfortunate experience for me.
Iodized salt added to her bucket food is good. If it were me,wrt the block in her stall,I would use just a plain white one, or a white iodized block,if available. 

You can keep adding to your case history after you load it. It doesn't have to be totally filled out . Just add the link to it to your signature,and give us a heads up to take a look.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Laurie,

I know it's ridiculous  to say  not to worry about misguided advice you have been given , by people we should trust to help us keep our ponies healthy.
But I wish I had a dollar for every person here who has gone through the same thing....before coming here. I'd be a gazzillionaire.
For me, it happened over 25 years ago wrt my dogs, and about 22 years ago for my horses. Just to say it's not a new travesty.
The good thing is that you are here now. You'll learn about companies/professionals who do care, and who put in the effort to help us.
You have the power now to get your girl on the road to health.
Knowledge is power, and there's plenty of knowledge going on here.
Save your energy to soak it all in.

Glad to hear you've got the breathing thing under control!
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Nancy C
 

Hi Shannon

As you have seen in other messages, there has been concern about TC Lite for some time.

In addition to Stabul 1, you can also feed more hay. Check with whomever is balancing your hay to make sure your protein intake is adequate.

I also cannot read your case history.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

 

Hi Shannon,
I was interested in taking a peek at Majik’s Case History and found I could not open it.  Could you please check and see if it opens for you?
Thank you!
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

laurietrush@...
 

This makes me soooo upset! I've been feeding Triple Crown Lite - not much but now my horse is at the hospital with her first horrible case of laminitis. I feel like no one is truthful and our horses are suffering because of it. 
--
Laurie R. in Knoxville, TN 2020


Re: I.r. horse questioning joint injections

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jonni,

Has this horse been confirmed to have IR?  If she's not IR or you just think she is due to appearance any advice we could offer is at best a guess.  




Re: I.r. horse questioning joint injections

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If she's really IR (only testing will tell), corticosteroids are out. I'd be more concerned about treating  for bursitis without ruling out an underlying cause but then again I don't know the history or what has been done already.  Since we don't know if she's IR, this discussion is really OT but I would say you need ultrasound, radiographs and sometimes bone scan to uncover the real cause of the bursitis (unless you know she got kicked or something) and until then I would use topical Sore No More rubs three or four times a day.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

laurietrush@...
 

Can you all recommended where to buy the magnesium oxide please? My local feed store doesn't have anything that's not mixed in with other things. And is there a brand that is better than others? Also, does it matter on the flax?  My mare is eating the beet pulp well but she is dehydrated so the vet wants to let her have the water with it. It is molasses free. I now have hay that she is eating well that has been tested. Can I get help on balancing it out? We are soaking it still. She has been on Nano E for awhile and we have increased her amount. She is also on Equinity (amino acids), EquiBrew (probiotics), Micro Max (pelleted vitamin that has 185 mg of iron) and MSM which I think should be stopped? I started the Micro Max vitamin pellets because I was feeding her just a handful (1 cup) of the Triple Crown Lite. She is a big girl and weighs a least 1200 lbs. I need to ask about her weight when I go in today. They weighed her when she came in 2/13/20. She has been on Triple Crown Lite only as a carrier for her other supplements for while. Trying to get them to stop that and only due the beet pulp - heading down to the hospital - again - shortly. I also had a red mineral block ( I am now suspicious about iron)  but she now has a Himalayan salt in her stall at the hospital. Oh how I wish I'd been better about writing down what I did when... 

I have started the case history form but it needs more info. I think she is IR and PPID. I have more bloodwork to upload but am hopelessly not tech savvy and cannot figure it out. I am going to ask for her radiographs today. I'm sorry to put so much in this one post but I am still in panic mode although I am trying to keep breathing.Than you all so much!
--
Laurie R. in Knoxville, TN 2020


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

 

I used Triple Crown Lite for years for my Cushings/IR mare and on occasion sent it to Equi Analytical.  It always came back as acceptable to me because I fed so little of it.  BUT then Purina took over the milling so I decided to have it tested again.  It came back as 16% ESC plus Starch.  I was horrified and sent the test results to Triple Crown.  They asked me to have it retested so I did.  EA stated in their findings that the feed wasn't the same as in the past.  Then I got a letter from Triple Crown basically

Dear Ms. Kemmerer,

 

Thank you for your email and for providing the information from Equi-Analytical.  As you likely know, we provide estimated values for NSC on our products and there can be a lot of variables in the sampling and testing process that could lead to unexpected results.  We do agree with you that this sample result is higher than we would expect for TC Lite. 

 

We will review new data as crop inputs can change from one year to the next.  Based on your feedback, we will take steps to increase the testing frequency of our TC Lite.

 

If in fact we find that the NSC values for Lite have increased, we will work to find the source of the increase and modify our ingredient supply if possible to improve the result.  If a lower NSC is not possible, then we will adjust our estimated value.  Please feel free to review the carbohydrate page on our website for the latest information.

 

Thanks again for bringing this to our attention.

 

Triple Crown

--
Jean and Amber (over the bridge)

 

South Carolina

August 2004

NRCPlus 0412; CIR 0813, 1211; NAT 0612

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gloria%20and%20Amber


Re: Estradiol

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Things to look for would be better hoof comfort, crest stabilizing, udder normalizing, no flank pain.  This type of behavior has not been reported as a result of estradiol. Is it new for her or has she shown alpha mare tendencies in the past too?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Shannon
 

I found the answer to one of my questions on the feed.  Stabul 1.  I will be looking into that.  I am so mad at Triple Crown!
--
Shannon and Majik (IR) and Rafiq (PPID/IR, over the rainbow bridge)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

 

Majik's Photo Album

Rafiq's Photo Album


Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Shannon
 

Hi y'all!  Overall, Majik has been doing well on balanced hay and Triple Crown Lite (as listed in her file).  Her insulin remains in the low-normal range even though Triple Crown Lite seems to be fluctuating via individual testing.  Just in the past 2-3 months Majik has lost weight.  I have been lightly riding her (due to me being out of shape/practice as much as her).  Is there a feed that is safer than Triple Crown Lite at this time?  We continue to board at the same location she has lived since I purchased her as a long yearling.  She turns 17 in April.  I plan to do fresh insulin and Cushing's testing in March.  I purchase all feed on top of full board as they continue to only carry Nutrena products.  We have a new manager who is willing to purchase some feed on the side, but none are below the 10% sugar/starch.

Thanks so much!  I will add a few pictures to her album re: condition.
--
Shannon and Majik (IR) and Rafiq (PPID/IR, over the rainbow bridge)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

 

Majik's Photo Album

Rafiq's Photo Album


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Shannon
 

My mare has been on Triple Crown Lite for years (with hay tested and supplemented accordingly) and maintained a low insulin for every test (at least annual).  If the feed is fluctuating, I am very concerned.  She is one horse who requires feed to hold even minimal weight, and is losing weight recently.  I was going to bump up the feed a bit, but now I'm not sure what to expect.  Any updated info on this?
--
Shannon and Majik (IR) and Rafiq (PPID/IR, over the rainbow bridge)
Houston 2009

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shannon%20and%20Majik%20and%20Rafiq

 

Majik's Photo Album

Rafiq's Photo Album