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Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Trisha DePietro
 

Hi Laurie. I understand your frustration and disappointment in the feed industry that we trusted. It is a huge letdown and disappointment for us and our horses.  And we feel so guilty that we didn't "know"...... Now that you have found this website, YOU are now empowered to make different choices in nutrition for your horses now and in the future!  Evidenced based information about equine nutrition and management of the IR/Cushings horse will be available here on this site when you can focus and your crisis is over, the moderators and everyone will be here to support you in your future decisions. Hang in there and I hope things begin to improve for your horse soon! 

Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Ω


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Bonnie
 

Laurie, you asked about flax. You can buy it in bulk from a feed store or from a bulk food store. A small coffee grinder (like a mini-blender) can be found on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/s?k=salton+coffee+grinder+electric+white&crid=69OPZ53OS2GG&sprefix=salton+coffee+grinder%2Caps%2C195&ref=nb_sb_ss_i_2_21
It takes about 6 seconds to grind, very easy.
We are all pulling for you while you rush about trying to get it all in place. Do one thing at a time and in a few weeks it will seem like normal routine.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Fixed it for you, Dawn.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

 

Dawn, I think it's no more than a poor implementation of the page gray background on the Triple Crown site. 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History Folder                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History Folder              Diamond Photos 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Nancy C
 

No idea why your quote is funky. Tried to edit but cannot. 

Bottom line is, we've had members do their own testing, we've had member horses have laminitis issues on this feed as the only change in management, and, as a result, it is no longer on the list of Safe Feeds. 

https://www.ecirhorse.org/assets/documents/ECIR-Group-DDTE-Safe-Feeds.pdf

You can see the compilation of tests here https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/files/9c%20Analyses%20of%20Various%20Feeds/Triple%20Crown%20Products

Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

 

Hi, Laurie. I know you're feeling a lot of pressure with your horse in the hospital.  A couple of idea for chasing down supplements...

You can get Uckele Mag Ox, small plain white salt block, and Omega Horseshine (4 ½  lb bag) through Amazon, at a premium, of course.  The upside is all are on Amazon Prime, so delivery is fast if you're a member.

If you need a taste tempter with beet pulp, you can get Stabul 1 delivered through Chewy.com. Mine comes within 2 days. Unfortunately it's a 50 lb bag.
https://www.chewy.com/stabul-1-equine-diets-fenugreek-low/dp/227246

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse Case History Folder                Cayuse Photos
Diamond Case History Folder              Diamond Photos 


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Lorna Cane
 

Beet pulp needs to be rinsed/soaked/rinsed but then can be fed with water to help with hydration.  I would also add plain salt directly to the beet pulp to help encourage her to drink.  "

Sherry's totally correct . I didn't mention the R/S/R protocol in my other post because I didn't think the hospital would go for that. Never assume anything. 

Sorry for any confusion I might have caused. Sigh.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

celestinefarm
 

Ok, I have no idea why my quote was blacked out, Mods?
--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

celestinefarm
 
Edited

Triple Crown and virtually all major feed manufacturers follow required practices when they label a product. It's why it is so important to read labels on feeds. The following appears on Triple Crown's website under their feed page for Triple Crown Lite regarding NSC* ( notice the asterisk, which should direct you to look at the bottom of the page where the asterisk appears with the following statement)

*Estimated values determined by Equi-Analytical, Ithaca, NY. Equi-Analytical makes no claims to the accuracy of its data. Link: http://equi-analytical.com/common-feed-profiles/

***The following coefficients of variation (cv) can be associated with the carbohydrate analyses. These should reasonably account for both sampling and analytical variation, though as you know, poor sampling can lead to much larger variation. The coefficients of variation (cv) for starch is 10%, WSC is 15% and ESC is 15%. For example, a feed with a WSC value of 10% should be expected to range from 8.5 – 11.5% and a WSC value of 20% to range from 17 – 23%. In addition, there are variables on ingredients between suppliers that could be as much as an additional 5% to 10% per ingredient. Therefore, products, such as TC 30% Supplement potentially would have a smaller variation than TC Lite due to the number of bulk ingredients making up the feed (2 vs. 4).


The above is an honest answer to products from feed companies that contain numerous ingredients from numerous sources around the country. Triple Crown still doesn't have an NSC value on their new Gold products they are introducing because according to the company, they are still in the process of having sampling/analysis done from their various contract feed mills across the country to come up with an NSC range.  Remember, Triple Crown doesn't have their own singular feed mill producing their feeds anymore, that burned down several years ago and they decided not to rebuild. Instead, they contracted with mills across the country to produce feed. Well, a feed mill in CA isn't going to truck in soybean meal from Illinois, they are going to get it from as close a location as possible. Soybeans grown in one area of the country, under different climate conditions, may have different energy and protein levels. As long as it meets the guaranteed minimum on the bag label, the mill will go with it . 

Triple Crown isn't lying or deliberately deceiving horse owners regarding their products. Their marketing of these products is what it is, marketing. Triple Crown Lite is most likely a better choice for IR horses than say, Triple Crown Complete or a competitors product. But from what we know here, it's not the best choice to be fed as a stand alone supplemental feed for IR horses.  It is too variable in ESC + Starch for confirmed IR horses.

Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: when best to test horse for acth and ir if tested in the past in June

Nancy C
 

Hi Deb

I was suggesting that our new member test now due to past clinical signs, and those currently being exhibited. If I was not seeing signs making me suspicious that the PPID is not controlled, waiting to get both ACTH and insulin when it is warmer, and when you have historically been testing, would be my choice.

I believe our test of choice is still ACTH, however,  where you have been doing TRH all along, you may want to stay with that for the purpose of comparing to past years. Keeping things like, time of year, time of day, conditions prior to testing, as similar as possible allow for better judgement on the results.

As always, I bow to Dr Kellon.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


when best to test horse for acth and ir if tested in the past in June

Deborah Ide
 

I read a post saying that the best time to test for ACTH is now or soon. Insulin can be elevated by cold weather , I read, so perhaps later in the Spring would be better for that. I have for the past few years had Tara have a TRH Stim Test in June (before the 21st) and had the insulin, Glucose and Leptin test done at the same time. The TRH Stim  Test has always shown her to not be PPID but of course I know that can change.Would it be best to have the ACTH checked now (and should it be the Stim test?)and have the  insulin, Glucose and Leptin checked later on in the Spring when it is warmer? Or, should I keep the schedule I had in the past  where I had them all checked in June, before the 21st?

On another note, I have a rescued gelding (registered Morgan 16 years old) and for the last year (that is when he arrived here) I have fed him as if he is IR. Should I have him have the TRH  Stim  Test too or just an ACTH test  and the insulin,Glucose and leptin? He is not showing any overt signs of PPID or IR except that he did grow a heavy winter coat (he came from Pennsylvania)with longer hair under his jaw and he is 16 years old.

--
Deborah
November 2012
Middle Tennessee
Case History: https:/ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Laurie,

Keep on breathing!  As far as Mag Ox - if there's a local feed mill in your area see if they can provide you with a bag of food grade Mag Ox.  It's not very expensive (well shouldn't be - about $1/lb seems to be average) and it lasts quite a while.  You can also buy the Uckele version and get a 5% discount if you use code ECIR at checkout - https://uckele.com/magnesium-oxide.html.  

Flax can also come from the local feed mill if they have it.  You can buy the whole seeds and grind it yourself but buying at a health food store can get expensive very quickly so finding it at a mill would be a better option.

Yes, you should stop the MSM if she's positive for IR or PPID.  The TC Lite can be replaced by beet pulp or Stabul 1.  

Telling us her current weight is helpful, but we need to know what her ideal weight would be as well.  

Beet pulp needs to be rinsed/soaked/rinsed but then can be fed with water to help with hydration.  I would also add plain salt directly to the beet pulp to help encourage her to drink.  

If you feel she needs to have a salt lick just use a plain white one - there's extra dirt in the Himalayan block (that's what causes the color change) and there may be extra iron in that as well.

If you're getting stuck with uploading information just let us know where in the process you're having an issue and we'll be able to help.



Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Shevawn Romine
 

This was at least a better answer then they gave me…which was basically,   “so what if the ESC+starch was variable and sometimes high,    the amount fed is small compared to rest of diet. “


--
Cassie and Shevawn
03/2015   Gordon, TX
CH folder:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Shevawn%20and%20Cassie 
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=76832 


Re: Recommended magnesium oxide for the emergency diet? Delete other supplements?

Lorna Cane
 

Laurie, sorry to be short on answers about mag ox, and I'm not sure what your question is about flax.
But definitely add water to the beet pulp. Some horses like it soupy, some a little less wet. But feeding it dry can lead to choke....at least that was an unfortunate experience for me.
Iodized salt added to her bucket food is good. If it were me,wrt the block in her stall,I would use just a plain white one, or a white iodized block,if available. 

You can keep adding to your case history after you load it. It doesn't have to be totally filled out . Just add the link to it to your signature,and give us a heads up to take a look.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Laurie,

I know it's ridiculous  to say  not to worry about misguided advice you have been given , by people we should trust to help us keep our ponies healthy.
But I wish I had a dollar for every person here who has gone through the same thing....before coming here. I'd be a gazzillionaire.
For me, it happened over 25 years ago wrt my dogs, and about 22 years ago for my horses. Just to say it's not a new travesty.
The good thing is that you are here now. You'll learn about companies/professionals who do care, and who put in the effort to help us.
You have the power now to get your girl on the road to health.
Knowledge is power, and there's plenty of knowledge going on here.
Save your energy to soak it all in.

Glad to hear you've got the breathing thing under control!
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Feed and Weight loss (Majik)

Nancy C
 

Hi Shannon

As you have seen in other messages, there has been concern about TC Lite for some time.

In addition to Stabul 1, you can also feed more hay. Check with whomever is balancing your hay to make sure your protein intake is adequate.

I also cannot read your case history.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 22 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

 

Hi Shannon,
I was interested in taking a peek at Majik’s Case History and found I could not open it.  Could you please check and see if it opens for you?
Thank you!
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: FYI for those feeding Triple Crown Lite; feed recipe variability

laurietrush@...
 

This makes me soooo upset! I've been feeding Triple Crown Lite - not much but now my horse is at the hospital with her first horrible case of laminitis. I feel like no one is truthful and our horses are suffering because of it. 
--
Laurie R. in Knoxville, TN 2020


Re: I.r. horse questioning joint injections

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Jonni,

Has this horse been confirmed to have IR?  If she's not IR or you just think she is due to appearance any advice we could offer is at best a guess.  




Re: I.r. horse questioning joint injections

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

If she's really IR (only testing will tell), corticosteroids are out. I'd be more concerned about treating  for bursitis without ruling out an underlying cause but then again I don't know the history or what has been done already.  Since we don't know if she's IR, this discussion is really OT but I would say you need ultrasound, radiographs and sometimes bone scan to uncover the real cause of the bursitis (unless you know she got kicked or something) and until then I would use topical Sore No More rubs three or four times a day.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001

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