Date   

Re: Need help with long term diet

NinaJW
 

Thanks Lorna! I think I did it :)
--
Nina and Jadon
Kentucky 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nina%20and%20Jadon


Re: Need help with long term diet

NinaJW
 



On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 10:03 PM Lorna in Ontario <windybriars@...> wrote:
Hi Nina,

You got it! He's handsome.

Now ,can you go back to the signature box ,in Subscription and add the Photo link.....https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=244202
to your signature.......remembering to hit Save.

In your other post ,did you mean he is only being fed 8 pounds a day of hay, or did I misunderstand?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002

--

 Yes. About 8 lbs is what I can get in the bag plus what he eats in the paddock with his muzzle on. If he eats much more I’ll never get the weight off him. Although I should note I am guessing. I cannot find a scale anywhere except a luggage scale on Amazon which would probably work. Money, money and more money.. lol :) Thanks for the compliment on him. I hope I can get him back to showing his leg stripes and shading. One photo (with snow) is from the winter I first bought him. He was a whale!!!




--
Nina and Jadon
Kentucky 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nina%20and%20Jadon


Re: Need help with long term diet

lvbnazgrl@...
 

There is a question/answer page "from their nutrition experts" on the Triple Crown site.  I called them to confirm.  
  In a conversation with a nutritionist who studied with you, it was suggested that I offer my PPID horse Triple Crown Lite if I was unable to find Mountain Sunrise Timothy Pellets.  I also had the iron content confirmed by TC in a telecon.  Some of the labels also show the iron content..I believe TC Lite is one of them.  

--
S Day in AZ 2020


Case Histories: What You Need To Know - Sat, 04/04/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

Case Histories: What You Need To Know

When:
Saturday, 4 April 2020

Description:

Your equine's Case History is the most important step to be completed upon joining the ECIR Group. It is critical for obtaining timely and specific advice from the support team.   

 

If you are a long time member, migrated from Yahoo, please be aware there are changes in how information is to be properly posted.  We also have a new case history form. If your case history does not contain the IR Calculator Table please transfer all your information on to the new form. The new uploading rules and instructions are located at the bottom of the case history form

 

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members. To help protect the data and your privacy only members of the main ECIR Group are granted access to the Case History Group.  If you are concerned about privacy you need only give your first name and general location.  The use of pseudonyms to keep your equine professionals anonymous is encouraged. Please review the ECIR Group Terms of Use and Privacy Policy

 

Don't delay posting or updating your case history. 

Missing information it can be added as you obtain it. The faster your case history is completed with what you currently know, the faster you will receive the best support from the support team. 

 

Please take the time to update your Case History.  An up-to-date case history is invaluable when an equine emergency crops up. Accurate documentation of management changes, the equine's responses, blood work results and links to the equine's photo album not only helps the ECIR Group gain the trust and respect of science-based equine professionals but can be used by vets who are on the ground trying to help your horse. Your Case History is the best way to effectively monitor and illustrate the results in PPID and IR management changes. 

 

Please leave all your information uploaded. When the time comes that you or your equine no longer need the advice of the ECIR Group, please leave your case history folder intact. Your information will be used in the future to confirm or re-shape ECIR protocols and help other members learn.  This is the best way to “give back” to the ECIR for the help you and your horse have received. 

 

Photos go in the Case History Photo Section.  Please help the Support Team work as efficiently as possible. Read How to Make a Photo Album for the rules and follow the Naming Pattern for photos so the Support Team can quickly locate the photos they need to see.  

 

Thank you for your cooperation, 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Need help with long term diet

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Nina,

You got it! He's handsome.

Now ,can you go back to the signature box ,in Subscription and add the Photo link.....https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=244202
to your signature.......remembering to hit Save.

In your other post ,did you mean he is only being fed 8 pounds a day of hay, or did I misunderstand?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002

--

 


Re: Need help with long term diet

NinaJW
 

They finally uploaded but I’m not sure I connected it to his case history? I followed directions but I may have missed something:/
--
Nina and Jadon
Kentucky 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nina%20and%20Jadon


Re: Need help with long term diet

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Nina,

I think this  is the link to Nadon's photos. But I don't see any photos.

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=244202

Could you have forgotten to hit Save somewhere?
Or ?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Need help with long term diet

NinaJW
 

I called all over the area and no can or is currently testing hay. I did remove salt pellets and msm pellets from his supplements. He exercises in the round pen daily for 10-15 minutes a day. Having been out of any work for years, it is a process. I can give him his supplements without grain. For now he will remain on approximately 8 lbs (Max) in a slow feeder, his Teff and Orchard. He goes out in a muzzle even though his paddock has not had much grass return yet. I have the APF ordered and will give Pergolide another try. He gets hooves done Tuesday and I will post hoof picks after. For now I did add body pics and one hoof pic to the folder.
--
Nina and Jadon
Kentucky 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nina%20and%20Jadon


Re: Diagnosing PPID in spring-summer

Maria Duran
 

Thank you Dr. Kellon,
 
So can I conclude that the excesive rise in fall for early PPID is due to the temporary insensivity to dopamine added to the already loss of dopaminergic neurons? 
 
Would you treat an older horse with no other symptoms than a 70 or 80 pg/ml in fall?

How advanced PPID has to be for the horse to have an elevated ACTH the whole year? I am shocked when horse have in fall 400 or 600 pg/ml
and then in may for example they are totally fine.

By seasonal fertility do you mean higher or lower?
 
Thanks for the great info.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Need help with long term diet

 

are you referencing the Timothy cubes, or the Timothy BALANCE cubes ?? 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Re: Diagnosing PPID in spring-summer

 

Excellent information!!  Thanks for the question and the answer :)
 
 

--
Ellen
Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 


Re: Step counter

Lorna Cane
 

I can't answer this, Pat. 
But I would think her hoof marks would give you a good idea of where she goes. The depth/degree of wear of the tracks will hint at how often she  goes where.
Maybe this doesn't fit your footing situation,though.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002


 


Re: Step counter

 

The newer one's might work.  But they will significantly overstate the steps.  They record acceleration and deceleration.  Likely, a horse will quadruple.  I know this because of issues with pacemakers and people riding horses with them.  If you have a pacemaker that actually sets its own pace (as opposed to just being a simple "jumper cable" between chambers of the heart) you cannot ride a horse because it will way over boost the heart beats because it thinks you are running at top speed..  My guess is a multiple of four, at least.



--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Re: Invokana dose and pharmacies

Kim Rice
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,

I am not sure where to look for the information about using Invokana and urine test.  Could you please reply with the correct place to research this?

Thank you,
--
Kim R, Lafayette, CA  2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Shomee


Step counter

Pat Gauvreau <pgauvreau@...>
 

Has anyone used a human step counter on their horse to see how many steps they actually take in a 24 hour period?  Also can they be strapped to ankle. I’ve just started turning Savannah out in 100’ x 25’ paddock for extra self exercise and wondering if she’s using it much. 
--
Pat and Savannah
Vancouver Island, British Columbia, Canada
January 2018 

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Savannah
Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=22028&p=pcreated,,,50,2,0,0


Re: Need help with long term diet

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Where did you see an iron value?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Diagnosing PPID in spring-summer

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

The seasonal rise in ACTH comes from a temporary insensitivity to dopamine and is intertwined with seasonal fertility and coat changes. ACTH normally comes from the anterior lobe, which is under the control of CRH, not dopamine. That area of the pituitary is not involved; only the middle lobe.  All horses show the rise, with it generally being very small in young horses and increasing with age.  We know there are age-associated pituitary changes even in horses without PPID

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26810844

but don't know exactly what the functional significance of them is. Opinions vary on what the upper limit of normal should be for older horses but it is probably in the neighborhood of 80 - 100 pg/mL for the peak of the seasonal rise.

Exaggerated seasonal rise results are considered as diagnostic of PPID as a positive TRH stimulation test even if baseline ACTH is in normal range.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Chaffehay

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Donna,

You can send a sample to Equi-Analytical for testing (request the 603 Trainer test) but in the meantime you can also reach out to the company and ask them for the ESC and Starch or if they have an actual analysis sheet that they can send you since they say right on the website that they have a guaranteed analysis.  

Were this horse mine, until you have the test results I wouldn't take a chance on feeding him anything with alfalfa in it.  Better to stick with soaked Bermuda and r/s/r beet pulp for now.

In the meantime you can start on a case history for him and then add the test results when you get them.




Chaffehay

Donna Hedicke
 

We recently rescued a 19-20 year old MFT gelding that is PPID.  Blood was drawn Wednesday to check ACTH, glucose, insulin, and leptin. We understand Cornell may be a little backed up so will add a case history when we have info. 

Does anyone know the sugar and starch content of Chaffehay? I have searched the data and don't find an analysis of Chaffehay.  One of our vets suggests we add Chaffehay to his diet to increase his weight. He is currently on untested coastal bermuda grass hay grown in AZ. This is an alfalfa area of the country and we have a PPID horse on alfalfa that is not IR. The Chaffehay available to us is alfalfa based.
--
DJ Hedicke
July 2018, Southern New Mexico
Star Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/DJ%20and%20Star


Re: Need help with long term diet

Sherry Morse
 

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 





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