Date   

Re: Change in Crest after starting TC Timothy balance cubes

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thank you Dr Kellon, I meant to note it got bigger. Is that possibly an indication IR is not managed?
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018


Re: New Member - two horses diagnosed with laminitis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hello Karen,

Welcome to the group!

Thank you for having your signature and Case Histories in place!  It sounds like you have lots of support and are well on your way to getting your 2 back on track.  There is a lot of information in this welcome email, as well as on our website www.ecirhorse.org and in our searchable message archives.  If you have any urgent questions be sure to post them here.  We have quite a few Aussies in this group so they will have lots knowledge to share.

I'll just make a couple suggestions here.... When you get your bloodwork done be sure to follow our protocols for testing and include the ACTH test, too, as the time of year and age of your horses makes PPID another very likely cause of autumn laminitis: https://www.ecirhorse.org/seasonal-rise.php.  You can read more on this below in the "Diagnosis" section.  For now, you may want to stop the lucerne as the higher starch content in it can be problematic for insulin resistant horses (see "Diet" section below).  It would also be helpful if you could create a photo album for each horse (see instructions in links under "Trim" below) and upload current hoof and body condition (front, rear, side) photos. 

Thanks again for being so organized, keep wading through the information, and let us know if you have any questions after you've had a good look through the following welcome letter!

--- 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin, glucose and Leptin. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". Knowing this helps to differentiate if a horse is IR "at baseline" or if an elevated ACTH is "driving" the insulin up. In Europe, substitute adiponectin for the leptin test.

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

 -- 

Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


locked Re: sand rid

Frances C.
 

Does psyllium slow the transit of foodstuff through the gut enabling more glucose to be excreted and lessening blood glucose levels????
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


New Member - two horses diagnosed with laminitis

Karen Hocking
 

Hi all

I am new to this group, laminitis and IR and was recommended to join this group by my Barefoot Practitioner and Equine Nutritionist.

Although I don't have an official diagnosis of IR yet (the vet was reluctant to test and said just to treat it as IR as my mare is showing the typical signs of it), we're pretty sure both horses have IR with the laminitis triggered by fresh 'grass' after the recent drought breaking rains. I will be speaking with my vet about getting both horses tested now I am learning what questions to ask.

Star has laminitis in all 4 hooves and has been very sore - she has been on the emergency diet since 16 April while my equine nutritionist is doing up a feed plan for her - I'm also going to get my hay tested. Herbert was diagnosed today (21 April) with laminitis in all 4 hooves, not as bad as Star but not far off it. He is still moving relatively well. He has been started on the emergency diet today and I have contacted my equine nutritionist. I have uploaded case histories for both horses.

I've only had horses for the last 8 years and have never come across this before. I'm trying to learn as much as I can so any advice/information is greatly appreciated - I'm wading through all the awesome information in this group.
--
- Karen
April 2020, Dubbo NSW Australia
Case History Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Star
Case History Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Herbert


locked Re: sand rid

Maria Duran
 

My experience here is to go with whatever that reaches the goal of sand removal either pellets or pure husks because sometimes horses don't eat large quantities of the pure husk as it forms a jelly like mash. 

If this is the case and you want to try the pellets, you need to know how much of the plantago is actually present in the formula. For example, Sand Ex from Equimins is 65% psyllium husk so you need to increase the amount fed, maybe this is one of the reasons why pellets are less efficient if people don't take this into account.

You have pure psyllium husks in Amazon, very cheap.

--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


locked Re: sand rid

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Psyllium does work. The only article quoted in the Succeed blog is one that opened the cecum surgically and deposited a large load of sand.  Not exactly a good model for the natural situation. A horse would never ingest a large load of pure sand, and surgery interferes with gut motility. These studies support psyllium:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30103912

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11191612


 In this one, feeding it at home didn't work as well as giving it by stomach tube but I'll bet they fed it dry and tubed it in with lots of water:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5059958/


--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


locked Re: sand rid

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Do NOT add psyllium to your supplement. They should be given in separate meals.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Change in Crest after starting TC Timothy balance cubes

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Nancy,

You can see a change in the crest after any diet adjustment that lowers S/S by substituting a safer food, like the cubes.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


locked Re: sand rid

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

That's because the pellets don't always dissolve readily. I wrote the Horse Journal article that Laura was talking about. I took pellets and let them soak 4 hours or even overnight in water and in vinegar (vinegar has about the same pH as the stomach when food is in it).  The brands of pellets tested then broken down minimally, if at all.

If you use powder (Uckele has a pure powder), always wet it before adding. The gelled wet psyllium doesn't seem very appealing but most horses eat it readily. Feed for 3 to 5 days straight once a month, at least 4 to 6 oz/day dry weight. After that, the cecum and colon organisms adapt and start to ferment it so it won't be working to move sand.

Again, all of that said if your barn has a good record of preventing sand colic using Sand Rid there's no reason to change. Sand Rid safe from an insulin standpoint and virtually pure psyllium.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: packing collateral grooves with play doh for xrays and using a tack

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

On Mon, Apr 20, 2020 at 06:46 PM, Judy and Bugsy wrote:
1. What is the purpose of packing the collateral grooves?

To obliterate the shadows caused by air in the collateral grooves.
2. Does anyone have any pictures of how the packing should look? Is the Play Doh just kind of schmooshed in the grooves?
You just pack it in there until level with the sole
3. The collateral grooves should only be packed for dorsal view xrays right?
Right - dorsal and navicular views.  For laterals it can actually be a useful landmark when the frog isn't marked (see below)
And questions about using a tack to mark the tip of the frog placement:
1. I've cut the sharp end of a thumb tack at the half way mark, is that short enough?
Yes, but you usually don't have to shorten it at all.
2. If the frog is shedding, do you trim that away prior to getting xrays?
Not necessary.
3. If the frog is stretched, do you still put the tack where the stretched tip is?
Yes!  IMO, the main advantage of the tack is to show where the coffin bone edge is sitting relative to that readily visible landmark. I also use it to give guidelines on bring the toe/breakover back. Radiographs are not true to scale so you can't measure them and say something like bring it back half an inch. However, if the frog tip is marked you can measure on the films and say to bring it back 1/4 of the distance between point of frog and the toe, etc. Does that make sense?

 
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


locked Re: sand rid

Patricia Evans
 

Hi LJ,
I use the psylium powder from Uckele. I use it 7 days every month. Since I live in Florida, we have a lot of sand. I've only had one colic in the past 27 years of using various types and brands of psyllium, but the colic was not sand related (per my vet it was an impaction colic from too little water intake ~2018). My mare has become very picky since she was diagnosed PPID, so I am very happy that she will take the psyllium powder. I haven't tried any other brand of the powder for the past several years, so Uckele is the only one I can speak about.
--

Patricia 

North central Florida

July 7 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Patricia%20and%20Dancer%20and%20Nathan
Dancer:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=66069

Nathan:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=94152
Snickers 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241740 


locked Re: sand rid

LJ Friedman
 

Thanks for the reply. I do have another horse at this facility that eats hay Though it is in a tub. But I do notice lots of sand when I pick their feet
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


locked Re: sand rid

gypsylassie
 

Hi LJ, first off, I'm usually skeptical of any article written by a company with a product to sell.  2nd, I remember an article on psyllium in the old Horse Journal when Dr Kellon was the contributing vet on staff.   I won't have time to search for it for a couple of days, but if Jesse is going to be gathering up any hay that falls on sand, even tho there are mats, you might want to do the 5 to 7 days/month of psyllium as a preventative.  It is effective for sand only when given for the 1 week/month.  I'll try to find the psyllium article in the next couple of days and report back.  I do remember that the findings were the powder works the best, followed by the pellets, which weren't as effective, but better than nothing, and would be better if the meal provided some water, "maybe", it's been quite a while since I read it.  
Laura K Chappie & Beau over the bridge
2011 N IL



Re: Stabul 1 availability

ferne fedeli
 

If you use auto-ship at Chewy, you get a 5% discount so that helps a bit.  I think before this latest lower price, I was paying $33 something.  For a period at TSC here, we were getting it really cheap--like $19.99 a bag & then they said they weren't going to carry it any more. 


--

Ferne Fedeli  Magic & Jack   2007

No. California
Case History

 

 


Stabul 1 availability

Irene Collins-Fotino
 

Hi all,

Not sure what happened to the email I just sent, so am sending it again. Anyway, the issue
with ordering from Chewy is the shipping cost. Unless Stabul 1 is on "special", the cost with shipment
is $39.99. The cost from TSC is $21.99. If the feed is on special at Chewy, the cost is $29.99
which is doable. 
I have not spoken with Randy yet; that is on the schedule for Wednesday, and I am also going
to call some feed stores to ask about carrying Stabul 1. 

Thanks all,



Irene & Logan
NRC 2009
Hudson, NH

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9598

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Irene%20&%20Logan


Re: PPID and Hind Lameness

Tori & Floss
 

Hey Sherry,
I was told by a girl who read it on a PPID Facebook group.
I'm not a Member of that fb group myself.
--
Tori

 

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Floss 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347

 

 

 


Re: PPID and Hind Lameness

Tori & Floss
 


-- Thanks so much Dr Kellon :-)
Tori

 

December, 2016

Adelaide Australia

Case History  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tori%20and%20Floss 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=3347

 

 

 


locked Re: sand rid

LJ Friedman
 

and now .  why using psyllium is not helpful 

https://www.succeed-equine.com/succeed-blog/2014/06/02/mm34-feeding-psyllium-helps-horses-avoid-sand-colic/


thinking this should move over to horsekeeping?  I am somewhat influenced by what I read. I’m thinking based on reading this that I won’t bother with psyllium. My horses are feed on mats or bins
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


locked Re: sand rid

LJ Friedman
 

I read that you should only give this for seven days because it causes resistance. Now I read you can give it daily. Seems like advertisers are trying to slant thinking. What are everyone’s thoughts on this link
--


locked Re: sand rid

LJ Friedman
 


--Would it  ever makes sense to add the psyllium  to my daily custom supplements I get from you uckele? 
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 

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