Date   

Re: URGENT - NSW Australia - bloods taken but labs say they don't do Leptin testing

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Karen
Are you sure it wasn't glucose results you got back immediately? ACTH and insulin usually take a couple of days.
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: 21.going on 2, sore after walk/ jig

twoponiesequine
 

Hi Nancy,

I have a "just turned 5". If she sees something that excites her (or is waiting to be fed) she may go from zero to 60--irregardless of the damage that it will do to the healing process. If you think this is like your horse, you may want to have Xrays showing feet that can withstand concussion (even in boots) before second-guessing Vinnie. I am now hand walking again--she took off at a hand gallop and got really sore. Just not worth it.  May the force be with you!
--
Katie D in CO 2020


Re: 21.going on 2, sore after walk/ jig

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Update: he is much better tonight and he isn't on any meds just supplements. 

Hay net hung to chest height and I like that much better! Thanks everyone. Knock wood all is well tonight here in Oakley and 🦄🦄
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855


Re: URGENT - NSW Australia - bloods taken but labs say they don't do Leptin testing

Karen Hocking
 

Thanks Maxine, ACTH normal and we will see what glucose and insulin say - they have been sent off today :)
--
- Karen
April 2020, Dubbo NSW Australia
Case History Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Star
Photos Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245668

Case History Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Herbert
Photos Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245671


Re: URGENT - NSW Australia - bloods taken but labs say they don't do Leptin testing

Karen Hocking
 

So there is nowhere in NSW that does Leptin testing - CSU (Wagga Wagga) advised they do not do it. To get it tested, the vet has to send to Gribbles in Victoria (interstate) for them to send back to RPA Sydney (interstate again) and given the current border controls because of COVID-19, the sample won't get there within 48 hours if it gets there at all. The vet also had an argument with the labs about needing to fast the horses for glucose and insulin testing (they were not fasted and had hay available - as per my vet and the protocols here). So insulin and glucose sent off today and we will see what happens. Will leave leptin until later when freight is not such an issue. This has been a very frustrating process!!!
--
- Karen
April 2020, Dubbo NSW Australia
Case History Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Star
Photos Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245668

Case History Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Herbert
Photos Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245671


Re: URGENT - NSW Australia - bloods taken but labs say they don't do Leptin testing

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Karen
I guess Gribbles and CSU have stopped the leptin testing then. I would stick to the ACTH, insulin and glucose. I've never had leptin tested, even when Gribbles were doing it, as I couldn't afford it. The leptin test gives useful information but if you can't get it done, no point in worrying about it. The other three are crucial, though. 

--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Horse is being fed "treats" against my will

Joy V
 

Hi Trisha,

Thank you so much for all your suggestions.  I have started documenting everything on my calendar and have been making notes.  I will be doing many of the things you suggest.  One good thing is a lady at the barn who I'm friends with is a retired judge so I will be talking with her and the other ladies -- they are keeping eyes on Willie.

Joy
--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Horse is being fed "treats" against my will

Joy V
 

"Glad to see you recently updated you CH, but it does not seem to show the two 'recent' laminitis attacks.  Might want to add those to help people reading it get a clearer picture.  Also, I would update photos, body and hooves, and x-rays if you have any newer ones."

Here's the picture, he's PPID/IR.  Currently PPID is well controlled, IR is uncompensated according to RISQI.  I have him on a diet, following all Dr. Kellon's protocols re feeding.  I hope that helps clarify his status.

The recent laminitis events were on April 8 (thru 12 until improvement) and general "footiness" that was not resolving all within the past 3 months (vet has been out during that time).  And then the low grade laminitis today.  I've been working 3 jobs for several months now, and was already working 2 of them for the past 3 years.  I haven't had much extra time to update my CH.  I also don't have the money to get new x-rays right now - I'm still paying for the previous vet visit when I had blood drawn.  When my trimmer comes next week I will ask her to help me take some pictures.  He had been staying pretty sound and had improved so much since I got his initial DX.  I'm really sad, and really stressed out about this.  I feel terrible for him, and it infuriates me that she would do this to him.  That's why I am asking here.  I have told her to her face to never feed my horse because he has Cushing's and is IR.  I have signs up on all available sides of his paddock, several to each side.  I read one WITH her when I talked to her face to face.  The BO has told her 2x she cannot feed the horses. 

So I did get some good ideas, thank you everyone.  I am looking at some pretty cheap trail cams and will put one up just for a little peace of mind hopefully.  When I left tonight I went back I was so paranoid.

*Admins if this should be moved to horsekeeping, would you please do it?  I don't know how to.  Thank you. 
--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


URGENT - NSW Australia - bloods taken but labs say they don't do Leptin testing

Karen Hocking
 

Hi All

My awesome vet came and took bloods for Glucose, Insuline and Leptin this morning - I am in country NSW. They rang Gribbles, Charles Sturt University, IDEXX and another lab who all said they do not do Leptin testing. The only option was Royal Prince Alfred Hospital in Sydney who do human leptin testing, at $200 per test. I don't think it's worth sending to a human lab unless the test is the same.

Any advice would be appreciated!!

--
- Karen
April 2020, Dubbo NSW Australia
Case History Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Star
Photos Star: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245668

Case History Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Karen%20and%20Star%20-%20Herbert/Herbert
Photos Herbert: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245671


Re: Questions about research on PPID and IR

Alicia Harlov
 

Hi Judy! 

I am sure an ECIR moderator will step in with the most accurate information, but I wanted to address a few of these topics as I've talked extensively with both ECIR members as well as Dr. Andrew Van Eps from New Bolton Center in Philadelphia about some of these topics. 

First, NSC is a combination of WSC (water soluble carbs, including fructans) and starch which has historically been used to measure sugars and starches in feed and forage. The issues is, it appears that fructans do not pose an issue with laminitis as had been previously predicted. Chris Pollitt in his studies found that inulin, a specific form of fructan (that is not found is grass) can induce laminitis when actually tubed in the stomach. This study was performed and replicated, so we know that inulin can induce laminitis and that form of fructan would be an issue. The trouble with applying this to WSC in hay or other forage/feeds, is that horses would never ingest as much as Dr. Pollitt used, and they would not ingest inulin. 

Many people, out of concern and conservative thinking in regards to sugars and starches, will then seek out a low NSC (low WSC/starch) hay to feed their metabolic equines. Often they pass up good, nutritious hay in the process because the WSC is too high. They end up essentially "starving" their horses of good nutrients in order to find lower WSC. 

ECIR is special because it has a database of over a decade of case histories on many horses, following the smallest changes in stimuli that could pose problems for endocrinopathic laminitis cases. They have found that feeding a hay that is low in ESC (ethanol soluble carbs) and starch - less than 4% starch, and less than 10% ESC+Starch combined - allowed for hay with more nutrients (better protein/minimal or easier mineral balancing capabilities/etc) to be fed to metabolic horses without setbacks. 

NSC is now considered outdated in many circles (including here), and ESC+Starch has been followed with success by many people, even those with very sensitive equines. 

On the topic of the Oral Sugar Test (OST), I spoke at length with Dr. Van Eps about this, since he is such a huge proponent of it. He discredits the IR Calculator, saying it cannot give a true concrete diagnosis. This might be true. That being said, I have seen the OST actually INDUCE laminitis in sensitive equines. One friend of mine was pushed to do the OST for a definitive diagnosis- her gelding was fairly stable, but had some concerning symptoms creep up that the vet and owner wanted to monitor and mitigate. After administering the OST, her gelding went into a laminitic episode which resulted in a downward spiral that he never recovered from, despite following careful diet requirements etc to a T. The horse was euthanized shortly after. 

The goal of ECIR is NO Laminitis; not even a chance. If there is a chance the OST can cause laminitic pain in my horse or my clients' horses, I will not recommend it. 
This post by Dr. Kellon goes into more detail - https://drkhorsesense.wordpress.com/2019/10/27/do-you-need-an-oral-sugar-test-to-diagnose-ems/


I am hoping others will step in and elaborate more, and answer your other questions. 

Hope this helps! 
--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

LJ Friedman
 

I think insulin wise is returnable. I think you can just say it’s not working and you’ll get your money back that’s what I did because it doesn’t work
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I have had Vinnie on Insulinwise since Nov of 2018. He had a second laminitc episode while on insulinwise even thought following strict Emergency diet rules but that truly could have been triggered by stress from mechanical compensation of poor showing while recovering from his first episode.  At the time of the second episode my vet suggested increasing to 2 scoops per day which he has been on since June of 2019.
Honestly, I am not sure if it is doing much.

I found that I had better support from adding GlycoCemic Eq and removing any supplement that had any hint of iron.  Only then was when I saw a decrease in Vinnies crest. And it happened almost immediately.

Just my two cents.  I still have him on insulin wise at 2 scoops per day too..i am just am not sure if it is helping anything. I am too scared to remove it though :)
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855


Re: Is anyone using Insulin Wise?

rnfa67@...
 

If anyone in the Portland , OR area is using InsulinWise, please contact me.  I have an unopened bucket and an open bucket with 3 lbs left.  I recently had to put my mare down and had this left over.  I just want somebody to be able to use it.
--
Nikki Neiswinter OR 2020


Questions about research on PPID and IR

Judy and Bugsy
 

Hi All,

Bugsy is just recently found to be IR and I'm digging up information and of course lots of questions. I found a couple of sources of information that I have questions about. 

1. The  2020 Global Equine Endocrine Symposium Proceedings' (see link below) abstracts  references NSC levels in food rather than ESC level. . Why does ECIR reference ESC levels rather than NSC levels of food stuff?? (BTW this link provides snippets of very interesting information).   
https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2020/01/GEES_2020_Proceedings.pdf


2. The Equine Edocrinology Group  (EEG) states: "The glucose:insulin ratio and proxy measures of insulin sensitivity are not recommended as substitues for the Oral Sugar Test or the Insulin Tolerance Test; and the combined glucose-insulin test, frequent-sampled intravenous glucose tolerance test, and euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic clamp procedure are considered too complex and expensive for routine clinical use." (Page 5) https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2018/09/2018-Final-EMS_Recommendations_Web.pdf Does the ECIR site use the G:I ratio and proxy measures just as extra information or why is it used?


3. The EEG recommends two  dynamic tests for testing IR: The Oral Sugar Test and the Insulin Tolerance Test. What are the thoughts from this forum on these two tests to diagnose IR?  (Pg. 5) https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2018/09/2018-Final-EMS_Recommendations_Web.pdf

4. The EEG suggests feeding an overweight horse 1.5% of current body weight if weight loss is desired.  I'm just wondering how the "1.5% of current weight or 2% of ideal weight - which ever is MORE" came about? (Pg. 11)https://sites.tufts.edu/equineendogroup/files/2018/09/2018-Final-EMS_Recommendations_Web.pdf



Thanks so much for the info.  I'm just starting on my learning curve of IR and PPID...


Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Re: Horse is being fed "treats" against my will

jmc
 

Sigh, I've been in that same situation. Considering you are describing a barn my BO owned back then... I almost wonder if it is the same person (NoVA). In my case, my horse was a youngster with a weight problem (not yet diagnosed with anything), and only got a tiny bit of sweet feed (1/4 lb) just to keep him happy when his pasture mates were fed. I came back early from a trip to find his feed had been made up with an entire pound of sweet feed! I talked to the BO, she presumably takes to the weekend feeder, who basically refused to feed only what I asked! I ended up having to move him; the offender was a good friend of the BO, and she wasn't willing to do whatever to get this person to stop. 

So, you might have to consider finding new accomodations if you cannot get this woman to stop. Take hope though, I found an even better place not far away. If you happen to actually be in the NoVA area, I can recommend a new place, even.

--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Re: 21.going on 2, sore after walk/ jig

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Hi Dr Kellon, 

He has a 24x24 paddock and there are a couple round pens that he could have some out time. He can be very excitable (heehee) so I just haven't trusted him out of his stall untethered from me :)

I can try a round pen.  This probably sounds like a dumb question, but he shouldn't be allowed to run right? 

Thx Nancy
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855


Re: 21.going on 2, sore after walk/ jig

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Can you give him time out of his stall on his own in reasonably small area? He'll get more movement and it will take the edge off. As long as he's off meds it's safe.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Client setbacks

Alicia Harlov
 


I have seen an exponential amount of laminitis cases this spring in hoofcare clients, despite no access to pasture, and being fed tested hay, balanced minerals, and no grain. 

Would ACTH come into play this early in the season? 

One client has a mare that foundered last year who has recently lost weight. The vet came out to do vaccines two weeks ago, and told her to start the mare on corn oil... Ugh. Horse had been sound and comfortable prior, doing fantastic and not sensitive on any surface. 

Client called me today frantic. She is very laminitic again. Could vaccines and/or corn oil take 2 weeks to manifest with laminitic symptoms? 



--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: 21.going on 2, sore after walk/ jig

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

Thanks so much Sherry. I was really happy the day he was a naughty boy and then j got so worried last night. He has come so far and I was in a bit of a pani! Little stinker!! ,

My hay net is a smaller hole net,  I think about 2 inch squares, but I do like the idea of it being a bit.higher for the reasons you note. I just wasn't sure about effects in the feet, neck and digestion from eating at a higher position.

Thanks again :)
--
Nancy and Vinnie
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855


Re: Horse is being fed "treats" against my will

Sherry Morse
 

Lorna,

My first thought was also to give her the vet bills so I guess I'll join you in going to your room :-)



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