Date   

Re: contaminated feed

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Caroline,

If the last of the linseed was fed last night you're probably looking at a few days for that to process through his system and then it's a matter of who much of an insult his feet/insulin level took from the feed and/or grass and how lon git takes to recover from it.  Sorry, there's not really an exact time frame with these things.



Re: Vet suggesting euthanasia, any suggestions welcome...

Alicia Harlov
 

Ive sent him files from ECIR before; he claims that variables aren't controlled so we can't deduce much from case histories or even from the jiaogulan file. He said basically it's all experimenting on horses without knowing what's safe. I told him I get it, I've taken Stats courses, I understand p-values, but also mentioned that ECIR tried to parse out some of those variables etc. 
And, working on 200 horses regularly and seeing the improvement in their feet following mineral balancing etc has to speak for something. 
--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: contaminated feed

Caroline
 

Hi Sherry

I cleared the weeds / grass a week ago and the last linseed was in his feed yesterday.  I'll check with hoof testers tonight but think an abscess is unlikely as he's not lame in any particular leg / foot.  I've started him on Jiagulan in the hopes that might help and fingers crossed he feels better soon

Thanks
--
Caroline
Spalding, Lincolnshire, UK
September 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Caroline%20and%20Evan
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=231916


Re: Update on my Cayuse

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Good to hear Cass.  :)

Let us know how the "happy hoof pads" work out.  It looks kind of complicated but nice to have options for sure!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Vet suggesting euthanasia, any suggestions welcome...

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

All vets are big into peer-reviewed research as they are scientists.  It's fair to be hesitant and I understand his reluctance to listen to an "internet group".  However, our recommendations are based on the peer-reviewed research, as well as what 1000's of members have field tested.  Dr. Kellon is on top of all the research pertaining to IR and PPID, which is something most vets don't have time to do for themselves, plus she has the years of experience of managing this group and seeing what does and doesn't work.  She also publishes data from this group periodically in the peer-reviewed research.  Please invite your vet to join and ask for the evidence for our recommendations if he is uncertain.  While we may not have all the answers, we are further ahead than any other source of information on these 2 conditions that I have seen online out there.

Although some members/volunteers are also hay balancers and trimmers on the side, no one here makes money off of the advise that's provided on this site and no soliciting is allowed.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Lastest test results -- Insulin over 200 again

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Even at 8.3% ESC+starch, if her insulin has never come down below 50 but especially if its over 200, I would suggest going back to soaking the hay.  Use a weight to hold it underwater.  I place a 5 gallon bucket or a large rubber feed tub on top of my hay, then fill it with enough water that the hay doesn't float.  When its time to dump it out, its easy to dump the water in my weight out into the hay soaking barrel (rather than try to lift it out), then roll the whole thing over to drain.  Once you have her on metformin you may not need to soak anymore, but for now out of an abundance of caution I would try it if she was mine.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Lastest test results -- Insulin over 200 again

LJ Friedman
 

Asking this question that will enable the poster. When trying metformin , after how many weeks should you retest to know if it’s working properly?
--
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos

 


Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Even if the grass hay is tested and low in ESC+starch you could also try soaking it if you're not already, especially this time of year.  My hay is about 7% ESC+starch and I've learned this year that I have to soak it in the spring.  If Flirt is really sensitive to sugars then it may help him now as well as to prevent abscesses in the future.  Also just as important is to get his trim in a better place so I hope you can get new photos uploaded.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Couple of Questions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Insulin usually drops quickly when diet is corrected. How soon the feet come around depends on trim and the degree of internal damage.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Updating case history form with Pages for Mac

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

On Mon, May 25, 2020 at 11:17 AM, Sherry Morse wrote:
Step 5: Click on the last cell with information in it and then click the Tab key - this will create a new row underneath the current one where you can add information.
In case the tab through doesn't work for you (as it doesn't for me in my version of Word), you can also move your mouse to the left side of the row above or below where you want to add a row (just make sure its the same format that you want in the new row), and when the mouse changes to an arrow symbol left click to highlight the row, then right click to see a list of options.  Choose "Insert" to see an additional list of options, then select either "Insert rows above" or "insert rows below" depending on which one you want to do.
 
--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Working out Hay Amounts for Mini's Diet

Nancy C
 

oHey Lynn --

So everyone is on the same page, I have balanced Lynn's minerals for her herd. The analysis  supported 6 pounds per day for the minis and 8 for the donks to help them begin to lose weight. This test is apparently NIR and not Wet Chem. More on that below.

Because Lynn had a herd situation and 12 pounds total was fed per day for the food, I was concerned that somebody may get too much and somebody may get too little, risking getting fatter for the former and hyperlipedemia for the latter. We did talk about separating them at least til things got sorted out. Knowing more reliably what each is getting will allow you to move forward.

Lynn, if this test is NIR vs Wet Chem, the ESC may actually be much higher than reported. We have seen that happen before.  It would be a common move to use NIR if the test was done by the supplier, as it is less expensive. Checking with him will let you know for sure, if you don't already know. Depending on how much of this you have left, you may want to consider retesting using the Equi-Analytical's #603. https://equi-analytical.com/feed-and-forage-analysis/analytical-service-packages/

Bella (the grey, right?) is eleven. Depending on the ages of the others (sorry not recalling that info) you may also need to think about possible PPID.

Is Bella still lamintic? She's not getting grass in turn out, right? Can you tell us how it is going using the weight tape?

Thanks for getting this started Lynn. Apprciate the CH.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2020 NO Laminitis! Conference, October 23 - 25, Harrisburg, PA


Benedryl/antihistamines

Joy V
 

Is Benedryl (and same class of antihistamines) safe to use with Jherb?  Just making sure before I dose my horse, he's got hives. 

Thanks!
--
Joy and Willie  
(aka FLS Boxcar Willie)

Nevada County, CA - 2019


Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Couple of Questions

sunygirl06@...
 

Do you think that just eliminating this, she could bounce back pretty quick?

(I suppose you'll say that I'll have to observe and see, but just wondering what your experience is)

--
Amber Lauer
September 2016, Black Creek, WI

Sunny Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Sunny/Sunny%20Case%20History.pdf


Re: Couple of Questions

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Amber,

It may not seem like much but depending on sensitivity and what her numbers are already the bit of grass could be enough to make her owwie but not enough to make her obviously full blown laminitic.  As far as updating the CH - I'm not even going to guess :-)




Re: Couple of Questions

sunygirl06@...
 

She is on a dry lot 24/7 with tested hay, balanced diet as recommended from an ECIR balancer. Thank you for your input, maybe her nibbling the grass growing through the edges of the fence are it (otherwise her area is complete dirt only) I will also schedule her bloodwork. I only got an ACTH last year. Thank you very much for your input, I will wait to increase her dose until I get her #'s back.

I will also update her case history. I did get a complete panel in 2018, and I have updated her case history since then- I wonder why I didn't put the #'s in????
--
Amber Lauer
September 2016, Black Creek, WI

Sunny Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amber%20and%20Sunny/Sunny%20Case%20History.pdf


Re: Working out Hay Amounts for Mini's Diet

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Lynn,

Sorry - lots of questions for you but here's the main one - are you separating these animals to feed them?  If not, you really should be - that way you can provide each individual with the amount of hay needed that correlates to their needs.  Feeding all of them in a group is a good way to guarantee the piggies get more than they need and the others may not get enough.

I don't know much about donkeys so I'll leave the commenting on them to others, but from the pictures you've shared every one of these needs to lose quite a bit of weight.  If you want to be sure if they're gaining or it's just your imagination you can use a weight tape on them weekly and write down the results but be sure to measure in the exact same area on them and standing the same on the same ground from week to week to minimize discrepancies based on changes that way.  

As far as the photo file itself, could you please recreate that folder in the Case History subgroup: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photos and then update the link in your signature (let us know if you need help with that).  We can't block photo album creation in the main group, but that's just not where the albums should be.




Re: Updated CH - Scotty Labs

Sherry Morse
 

Frances,

Are you saying buy the ingredients and try to mix up your own at home?




Re: Couple of Questions

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Amber,

So I feel like you might need a reminder that PPID is a condition that is managed by medication, but never goes away, so you really only need a diagnosis once to know that your horse has it.  IR is a condition that you also really only need to diagnosis once and then manage through diet with the helping aspects of trim and exercise.  For both you can then use repeated bloodwork to know that you are managing the conditions to the best of your ability.

For Sunny I don't see any updates for her glucose or insulin levels since 2017 so there's no way to know if you are managing her IR through her diet and the exercise she gets doing lessons.  The fact that she's standing on soft ground and you feel that she's tender footed every spring is a pretty good sign that she may need tighter management in this area, which could include being kept in a dry lot and/or being muzzled if she's turned out.  However, without actual numbers for her glucose and insulin levels that's a guess at best.  Were she mine that's where I would start, even before getting test results. This has nothing to do with the seasonal rise which effects ACTH beginning in August and continuing through the fall.  Increased ACTH can cause laminitis and increased insulin, but that would be seen mostly in the fall, not now. 

Were she mine I would have blood pulled for insulin, glucose and ACTH now so you can see if her ACTH is controlled on the current dose of pergolide.  If you wait to test her until September you may well find yourself 'chasing the rise' and that is a position you want to avoid if possible.  




Re: Updated CH - Scotty Labs

Frances C.
 

Auburn Labs APF Go to their website and look up the active ingredients then go to WWW.bulksupplements.com and see if they carry the same ingredients and then do a price comparison.
--
- Frances C.
December 2017, Washington & California
Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Frances%20and%20Phoenix
Phoenix's Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=12382


Re: Updated CH - Scotty Labs

 

Which ones have you used with success?
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 

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