Date   

Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Lindsay,

Hard to tell regarding the distal descent (aka sinking) as the coronary bands weren't marked on the fronts (or correctly on the hinds) when the rads were taken. If there is distal descent, it is slight. P3 margins show slight demineralization (ski tips) starting and on the DP 60 rads you can see that the leading edges of the coffin bones are "feathered" rather than crisp and clean. That's evidence of thinning as well. Yes, the coffin bones are ground parallel. Toes are horizontally too long heels underrun. While your trimmer has improved things enormously (kudos) there is still more work to do and more healing that needs to happen.

While these are all possible results of laminitis, they are also all problems that bad mechanics alone can create.The oh-so-less-than-optimal trim he had sported for so long was straining all his connections and providing no consistent support to his bony column. Dietary imbalances can also play a part, as without the proper minerals available to build and maintain healthy feet, they are weaker and more susceptible to damage.

Although the terms are many times used interchangeably, laminitis is the actual inflammation and damage to the lamina themselves while founder is displacement of the bony column. You can have laminitis without founder.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Calculating Body Weight...point of hip

Bobbie Day
 

Lorna
I am soooo glad you asked this !
I am trying to get a accurate weight on all my horses so I can balance for myself but I came out with some VERY high numbers and although my horses “are loved” a little too much I know my little gelding isn’t as heavy as my big riding horse so I’m obviously doing something wrong.
Looking forward to answers for this 😊


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Re: Markups and Lavinia

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Heather,

You're making progress but still need to get those toes back further, LF more than RF. It's possible that spot is an abscess getting ready to come out - if you back the toe ore, it will likely nick into the soft spot so anything in it will drain out.

Added a quick mark-up to the LF:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Hoof evaluations

Judy and Bugsy
 

Hi everyone,

I've posted current hoof pictures in Bugsy's file and would like Lavinia to take a look and do mark-ups for me.  The last trim, the farrier took out 'dead' sole and lowered heels (he made this call on his own) and Bugsy went from being able to trot 30 min in boots while being rode in the pasture, back to hand walking. Last night he ripped around the arena and bucked but when he stands still, he is still shifting his weight on his front end.  Is there any way to post videos on this site?  I'm thinking we can start trotting in boots in pasture (or barefoot in sand arena) but would like another set of eyes on his video and get experienced members' thoughts. 

I've been soaking and packing central sulcus for about 3 weeks now, so hopefully an experienced eye will notice a difference ( I really don't know what I'm looking for). 

Thanks in advance,
--

 

Judy and Bugsy

Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

Feb. 25, 2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Judy%20and%20Bugsy
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=243358

 




Calculating Body Weight...point of hip

Lorna Cane
 

Can someone straighten me out, please ? Dr. K. ?

The weight calculator in our Files says we measure from point of shoulder to point of hip. But the tape is shown going to point of buttock .

I always just use a weight tape( I know,I know), but we were puzzling today over 'weighing'  an IR pony here, and I am realizing  that point of shoulder to point of hip (real point of hip, which I have parroted for years) doesn't actually make sense.

Eleanor, you referenced confusion once about point of hip and point of buttocks, but for the life of me, I can't find your message. Is this the confusion you meant ?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Roger, 

From our Welcome Message .....

--" A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment."

I hope you have printed off and studied Dr. Kellon's and Lavinia's messages about how to proceed. 
And that you offer them to your new trimmer.

Sherry and Amy have presented also important posts this afternoon.


Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Hugh sugar results today

rollykoal@...
 

Will get copy but I was told everything was off the charts! Approx 30 mare Cushing's for last 3 years in one pill per day and is heavy and has to be shaved each spring. ....no grass some pickings inthe lot half flake in the am and free choice of hay meat od the time small coffee cup of maintenance grain for her meds or supplements she is picky will get more specific numbers when I go her a copy 


Re: Jan (was Very High Insulin Results)

Sherry Morse
 
Edited

Hi Jan,
 
Without a current case history we're going to have a very rough time advising you of anything but I'll start with what you have given us:
 
Mariah was last tested on 4/21/2020:
ACTH 19.7 (which indicates her current dose of Prascend is adequate)
Insulin - 99.52
Glucose - not tested?
 
That insulin result is indicative of IR as well as PPID and that her diet probably needs work and/or she needs to lose weight. Are you still soaking her hay?  How much is she eating?  What is it?  What else is she eating? What is her current weight?  What is her ideal weight?  IMO There's nothing to indicate she needs an increase in Prascend prior to the seasonal rise at this point.  
 
Ritzy was also last tested on 4/21/2020:
ACTH: 63.8 (indicates that she should have had an increase in Prascend at that time and then been rechecked).  
Insulin: 79.52 
Glucose: not tested?
 
Again, that insulin is indicative of IR as well as PPID and that her diet needs to be tighter.  The same questions apply to her as to Mariah in terms of what is she eating, her current weight and her ideal weight.
 
If you did not increase Ritzy's Prascend after that April test I would bump her up by at least .5 now and retest in 3 weeks or you may find yourself chasing the seasonal rise and trying to get her levels under control.
 
At this time of year all horses should be in the teens or 20s ideally.
 
You can find Mariah's CH here: 
It would be helpful if you could delete the old version out of the files (but save it to your computer so you have it to reference) as we have a limited amount of storage space on the server.  Once you've updated the information let us know, or if you're having trouble updating it let us know where you are getting stuck so we can help  you.

 

 

 

 

 
 
 


Re: Very High Insulin Results

Jan D
 


CAN YOU PLEASE ADVISE so we won’t have major foot pain this winter?

Mariah was 134.77 uIU/mL acth was 38.7 pg/ml 9/16/19.  Mega foot pain starting 10/19 Until 3/20. Raised prascend .25 mg 3/20 and soaked hay during winter.  
Insulin 4/21/20 99.52 acth 19.7 Prascend same.  Is that high enough?  

Was planning to raise Prascend .25 again for the coming seasonal rise 6/30 and test July 17.  I was told from listers last winter you like minis low in the teens. Still correct?  She is getting 30 minutes of walking 5 days a week.   
Anything else I should do so she doesn’t hurt this winter?  She was blanketed and booted all last winter too. 
Ritzy’s Insulin numbers are high but not like Mariah’s. She will get same treatment except her ACTH was 60.7 insulin 105.74 9/16, and acth 63.8 insulin 79.52 4/21. 
Ritzy is up to 3 mg Prascend and Mariah 1.25 mg now.  Planning on the increase of .25 for both 6/30. Is that ok?

I have tons of trouble updating my history’s.  Don’t know where saved files are. Will work on that. 
Thanks,
Jan
Mariah
Ritzy

On Jun 15, 2020, at 10:27 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:



Any member USA who has been getting insulin results in the high 100 to 200+ range please contact me if you are considering a retest: drkellon "at" gmail.com.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001



Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Amy Veatch
 

Hi Roger,
One thing I noticed is that I believe you said you were soaking his affected hoof every day.  I would worry about the sole (and the whole hoof) softening up too much with that much soaking over a long period of time.  With his coffin bone dangerously close to the sole, soaking might be making things worse rather than helping.  Lavinia mentioned packing the hoof and keeping it dry, which is what I've generally done with abscesses with good results.  Generally, I only soak an abscess if it needs help starting to drain, but once it's draining, that hoof is kept packed and dry. 

Also, I couldn't tell if you were soaking Flirt's hay or not, but with insulin that high, I sure would be soaking mine. :-)  I recommend that you follow Dr. K's advice.  To the letter.  Exactly.  No substitutions allowed (see where I'm going here).  My Princess had a terrible laminitis bout in all four feet last fall (I found her down in the pasture looking very much like a dead horse!)  Dr. K and everyone here guided me through and I'm glad to report that Princess recovered fantastically well and hasn't looked back.  She hasn't had a sore day or taken a step backwards since her initial episode.  She also doesn't get to graze grass.  Ever.  Really--not ever!  Soaking hay is a pain and I was at my wit's end last fall trying to get her stabilized and on the road to recovery, but it was worth it to see her healthy and happy--and staying that way.  So, my unprofessional recommendation to you: (1) Weigh (I love my fish scale) and thoroughly soak your hay (I use hay nets) for every feeding.  EVERY feeding. :-)  Throw out the rinse water (it's full of sugar).  (2) Whatever hay you end up with, I would get a sample tested for reference, but I would also test a soaked and dried sample to balance to and feed soaked hay with balanced minerals as long as it takes to get Flirt's feet comfortable and insulin lowered and stable. (I couldn't find pre-tested hay, so I tested my own samples and had better luck with warm season grasses (no ryegrass) that was cut in the morning rather than the heat of the day.  A lot of farmers around here purposely cut in the late afternoon so the sugar will be at its highest for cattle!!!  They don't realize the problems it can create with horses.)   Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable feeding unsoaked hay as long as the feet are sore, but that's me.  (3) Batten down the hatches so Flirt can't escape again--a good outing eating lots of fresh grass again could be catastrophic, esp. with insulin that high (you're over 80 uIU/mL which I believe is around the tipping point from smoldering chronic laminitis to a full-blown acute episode, which is where you are now, so until that comes way down, you haven't removed the cause.   

Best wishes to you and Flirt!  
 

--
Amy & Princess (12 year old KY Mtn Saddle mare) & Max (6 year old mini gelding) - both PPID/IR
Southeast TN, Joined 2019

Max:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Max
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=134444&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Princess:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Pincess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=96097

 



Re: Stress from Move Precipitating PPID/IR/Laminitis??

Sherry Morse
 

Lindsay,

I can only tell you that were he mine, now that I know for sure how much excess toe he has it'd be coming off.  It's not going to change how much sole he has, as the sole shouldn't be touched when the toe comes back. The appearance that the ridge is adding needed height under P3 is I think a bit of an illusion as it's not actually contributing anything, just pushing things out of alignment from where they should be (Lavinia will correct me if I'm wrong on that, I'm sure!) but getting rid of that ridge and keeping him booted will do him more good than leaving the toe too long in the long run.



Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Roger,

Those numbers indicate that Flirt might need a tighter diet and the CH you currently have posted is lacking details on what Flirt is currently eating (I know you said the emergency diet, but amounts would be helpful) and was he on that when the bloodwork was done?  Is he eating any hay at this point?  If so, are you soaking it?

As far as the farrier - if the trim isn't optimal putting clogs on isn't going to help improve things.  You can do a search in the messages for 'clogs' and find lots of emails on them.




Re: Cornell delayed results?

Amy Veatch
 

I just checked--blood was pulled May 12 (ok, more than a couple weeks ago-lol) and I got the results 2 weeks after that around the 27th or 28th.
--
Amy & Princess (12 year old KY Mtn Saddle mare) & Max (6 year old mini gelding) - both PPID/IR
Southeast TN, Joined 2019

Max:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Max
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=134444&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Princess:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Pincess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=96097

 



Re: Cornell delayed results?

Amy Veatch
 

I did ACTH a couple weeks ago and I noticed that Cornell took a few days longer than usual.  I usually get them back within 3 or 4 days and it was 2 weeks this time. They may be crawling along at times like the rest of us right now.
--
Amy & Princess (12 year old KY Mtn Saddle mare) & Max (6 year old mini gelding) - both PPID/IR
Southeast TN, Joined 2019

Max:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Max
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=134444&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0

Princess:

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Amy%20and%20Pincess

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=96097

 



Re: Our pony Flirt in trouble again!!

Roger Benson
 

An update on Flirt:
Blood test has finally come back.
ACTH IS 15. Range is 9-35 mg/ml
GLUCLOSE. 61  Range is 75-115
INSULIN is 92.3. Range is 4.5-20 uIU/mL
Glucose Insulin Ratio of  197
All of these numbers seem to be improved.

Flirt remains very uncomfortable.  There is still pus in the hole.  We try to clean, rinse, and treat with iodine each day and then wrap.
I am aware that he is in need of an alignment trim.  I have a new farrier coming on Wednesday who has had success working with laminitis.  He has seen the X-rays and thinks he can make Flirt much more comfortable with a new trim.  If more is needed he mentioned customized clogs.
Has anyone had any experience with clogs?  He seems very compassionate toward Flirt and confident that he can help.
We just put up a lot of hay and I intend to get it tested this week to see if it is low S/S for Flirt.
We are moving forward.  A fresh set of eyes with experience looking at Flirt makes us hopeful.
Still cannot figure out the “trigger.”  Hope I get a good test number on the hay.

Thoughts are welcome. Thanks!

--
Roger
January 2018  Atwater, Minnesota
Flirts Case History
Flirt's Photos


Re: Cornell delayed results?

jmc
 

I did, before posting. That's why I know the glucose was accidentally prepared wrong. Everything else on the paperwork is shown as "pending".
--
Jodi
June 2018
NW Wyoming

Yankee Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jodi%20and%20Yankee

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=54386


Re: Cornell delayed results?

 

Jodi, I would check with your vet.  We just did an ACTH test recently and had the results in two days.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Ligand 3 supplement?

hmfox77@...
 

Thanks for the replies! I'm pretty new here and am just tickled at all of the expert advice that is right here at my fingertips :) 
I'll check out the LaminOx.  Good to know about the discount too!
--
Heather F
Minnesota
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Ty


Re: Attention Invokana (canagliflozin) Users

Kim Rice
 

Hi Sue,

Thank you for your reply.  I appreciate all the knowledge that is here in this group.
--
Kim R, Lafayette, CA  2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Shomee


Re: Very High Insulin Results

Kelly Gilmartin
 

Yes please


On Jun 15, 2020, at 11:27 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD <drkellon@...> wrote:



Any member USA who has been getting insulin results in the high 100 to 200+ range please contact me if you are considering a retest: drkellon "at" gmail.com.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


--
Kelly G
Massachusetts

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