Date   

Re: Intra-articular injections

Anthie Booras
 

She had stifle surgery at 4 (now 14). One had a meniscal tear and the other had bad cartilage. Her RF coffin joint has almost no cartilage left either. Her hocks have had very thin joint space since she was young. I’m surprised they haven’t fused by now. 
--
- Anthie

Northern California
August 2015


Re: How to evaluate body score when parts of body look so different

Genevieve
 

I'm upping this post as my mare is finally back to the weight she used to be in March 2018, after being too thin, then gaining too much weight again, and then going to a weight that looks like a 4.5-5 /9.

Dr. Kellon can you confirm the body score of Rose please? Ribs are easily visible, but she still has a crusty neck and her bum is still slightly round.
--

Genevieve  March 2012

South of Quebec province

Rose (IR)  Case HistoryPhoto Album

Victor (PPID)  Case HistoryPhoto Album


Horses and Safe Limit of Nitrates from Dairy One, Was Grass Hay with High Protein

Debra Trujillo
 

I thought the group may be interested in this.  I ran into some more hay after the thread on "Grass Hay With High Protein" that was straight orchard with protein at 15.8%, but had very low ESC/starch numbers (5.4 and .7).  The hay grower had already sent in a sample to Equi Analytical for a NIR test, so I called and asked if I could get them to run nitrates on that.  They did and I got the results today.  The wet chemistry protein came back as 15.7% (very close to the NIR figure) and the nitrates (DM basis) was .73, PPM Nitrate-Nitrogen 1658.  There was a comment:  Nitrates by RQ Flex.  
I won't be buying this hay. 
Dairy One included information on Nitrates and Dairy Cattle which also had the table of nitrate levels and comments on what is safe and what is not, starting with <.44 and ending with >1.76 (close to what is in Files).  But, there was a statement at the end of the document that says "HORSES are more tolerant of nitrates than cattle.  A practical upper safe limit is 1.5% Nitrate or 3450 ppm Nitrate Nitrogen."  My thought was Wow, that's awfully high.  Surprised me, to say the least, from what I have read on Nitrates in the files.  What are thoughts here?  Would they make a statement like that without some research on the subject?
--
Debbie and Precious
June 2017, Parker CO
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Debbie%20and%20Precious  .
Precious' Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6846  .



Re: ACTH Only?

Sherry with Dusty, Blue and Cody
 

Hi Sherry,

I'm sorry I didn't realize I hadn't updated.  I'll do that tomorrow.  He is doing better.  I have him on 1.25 tabs a day.  His weight and appetite are good and his manure has been normal since starting the Prascend!  Last year he had to have Dex by the end of May for his breathing issues and so far we are doing fine in that department (thank goodness) but the first year he had trouble breathing (2018) it didn't start till the end of July.  I am praying treatment for the PPID will continue to keep those troubles at bay.  
--
Sherry, Feb 2018, Gates, NC
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Cody  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/DustyHoof/album?id=38179 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/BlueHoof/album?id=38486

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=38227
 


Re: Laminitis Triggers

ironic_acres@...
 

I have seen it written here many times....the devil is in the details. In my narrative I left a few details out because they were either in my case file, or I did not think they were necessary. I apologize. Here are some more details, but I will still try to be concise.
Up until the end of June last year, Migo was ridden regularly. We had already gone on three, week long camping/ trail riding trips and two weekend horsemanship clinics. All was normal. Then at the end of June, he started having behavior problems that I attributed to his dominant nature. They hadn't been a problem in years, but originally, they felt the same...refusing to canter, cross-firing when he did, asking to not go up or down big hills (he did this in the first week of June no problem) and having a ton of thresholds. They progressed. Physically he started tripping, he couldn't step down from a trailer, but the most concerning part was he was conceding leadership to his herd mates. He also was getting ridiculously spooky.
I had my local vet come and do chiropractic and acupuncture treatment (he has an old SI injury and it felt the same). During his treatment he said that Migo reacted severely to both his EPM and Lyme pressure points.
I am not here to argue alternative care, however, I believe it is complementary. I was not willing to treat for either disease without more conformation. We did a Lyme test (which came back negative, negative, negative) and because I was not willing to do a spinal test, I took him to a larger vet hospital about an hour south to a lameness/neurological expert. A full lameness/neurological exam was preformed. This vet also knows this horse and worked with my local vet. It was decided that Migo had neurological deficiencies consistent with EPM. The three of us discussed next steps and decided 30 days of Marquis. It was on back order so had to get compounded from Rood and Riddle. After 30 days, there were mild improvements so an addition 30 days was recommended. I did a total of 90 days.
At that time I took him back to the larger vet hospital for a re-eval. He had some improvement, but still was neurological. Again, upon discussion we tried another treatment that targets the fairea protozoa. It is off label use, but felt I had few options. This treatment was more difficult physically for Migo. I do believe after 7 days he had a laminitis attack. Treated him as such and he seemed to bounce back fairly quickly. Fast forward 90 days. We are now in the beginning of March. He seems fine and I slowly start working him to build his hind end (all online or at liberty). By the end of March, he is laying down more and more. When he did get up, he would be stiff and walk like an uncoordinated kitten. I stop working him immediately.
Local vet has been doing regular acupuncture treatments to help manage pain. I somehow let him convince me to treat for Lyme. That is when we started doxycycline. Fifteen days into treatment and Migo is worse but this is also when I had to change hay. I was worried but happy when I thought my hay was too high in sugar because that would have explained the cycle of lame, almost dead sound, lame and I mixed new and old hay together to get them used to it. But a message posted here, showed me my mistake...but that left me with no trigger. 
I feel that last June, EPM was the culprit. I have no proof. In hindsight, the cycle of laminitis that started in March feels very endocrine driven...and he is as fat as a toad because he hasn't been working since last June, so it makes sense.  
I apologize for the novel, but I just don't want to miss something. He is still very unpredictable in his lameness level and I was not certain what could have triggered this since he was fine on this protocol for so long, but I guess they are all fine until they aren't...it takes the smallest event to tip the scale. 
I started soaking his hay this afternoon and feeding him his mineral bucket as always but I upped his jiagulon. Is there anything else I should be doing? He is in a deeply bedded stall or in Clouds so he can socialize with his herd in a dry lot. He moves great in his boots. I can't leave him out with them all the time since their hay is not soaked.

He has not been tested for West Nile, but he has been vaccinated. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. 
Thank you all for your responses.
Tracy and Migo
Ohio
February 2013

Case History
Migo's Photo Album 
Ω


Re: Acute Laminitis / Hay Analysis / Bloodwork

Michele Goldberg <ladipus@...>
 

Even with careful rinsing and flushing the Metformin is still irritating the crap out of her poor mouth ...for those of you have gotten it compounded ...did that make a difference Vs the tablets ground up and syringed?We inquired with Wedgewood and it’s insanely expensive ...did anyone else that got compounded find it to be a lot more money?? I’m wondering how important the Metformin actually is and if it’s completely necessary with all the irritation it’s causing ...the Pentoxifylline is also a big pain in the but too as it forms a sticky thick gel almost immediately when mixed with water ...I’m just having a tough time with all these meds. I’m wondering if I should just stop the Metformin until her mouth heals up ...it looks like a swollen chemical burn. I got some Stabul One today ...I’m gonna try to see if she will eat the tablets mixed with some if that?
Michele & Schimpie


--
Michele Goldberg
Bernville, Pa
joined 5/19/2016


Re: Laminitis Triggers

Cheryl Oickle
 

Was he ever tested for West Nile?

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Intra-articular injections

Genevieve
 

Thanks Anthie for the suggestions. What is the diagnosis of your mare regarding the articulations that were injected? 
--

Genevieve  March 2012

South of Quebec province

Rose (IR)  Case HistoryPhoto Album

Victor (PPID)  Case HistoryPhoto Album


Re: jesse mouth issues

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

LJ,

Those extraction pockets are filled in by now. Older horses do have spaces called diastema develop between their teeth at the gumline and these can become impacted with food and inflamed. Could be something unrelated too. Your exam will tell.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: ACTH Only?

 

My vet pointed out to me that Cornell has a good "package" of tests at a very reasonable price. Many of us don't realize that a big part of our cost is paying for our own vet's time. My vet here in Michigan charges very low for his time and his distance to me is pretty low. Anyway, the difference between 2 tests or 4 tests is probably not so much. I have learned it is in my best interests to just go for the full package of blood tests.
--
Bonnie Snodgrass 07-2016

ECIR Group Primary Response 

White Cloud, Michigan, USA

Mouse Case History, Photo Album


Re: jesse mouth issues

Deb Walker
 

First of all LJ...what an AWESOME barn owner you have. Not many boarding facilities will accommodate multiple feed schedules, etc.

Scotty pretty much eats like that all the time...and he has only had one tooth extracted. But all of his back teeth are worn completely smooth, and even eating his hay mush becomes a challenge. One thing that I noticed with Jesse is that he is eating out of a bucket hung on stall. You might want to try a larger trough on the ground. Scotty seems to do better when he is eating with his head down...I think it's the rule of gravity that helps.
--
Deb and Scotty I/R, PPID
Pecatonica Illinois, May 13, 2019
Case History:
 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deb%20and%20Scotty
Photos:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90619


Re: Suspected IR but blood results suggest otherwise

 

On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 12:43 PM, <emma@...> wrote:
 
Emma,
The amount of iron in beet pulp varies quite widely. Our bags of Speedibeet in the USA are labeled with the amount of iron (shown as a minimum). Speedibeet sold elsewhere or in other batches may contain less iron. Check the label on the bag.

Like Maxine, I put the beet pulp in a nylon mesh laundry bag or lingerie bag. If you're feeding Speedibeet, you need to start by soaking it briefly in hot water to break apart the flakes. Then drain that water and soak it for 20 minutes longer in clean hot water. Finally, rinse it thoroughly in fresh water. The mesh bag retains the small pieces of beet pulp. Those of us who keep our own horses at home can process beet pulp in bulk once a week. After the final rinse and a brief drain, it can be weighed and frozen in plastic bags for individual sized servings. IIRC, I used portions weighing between 550 and 750 grams. It's a satisfying meal and safe for IR equines.

BP is not the only choice as a carrier for supplements, but it's a good one.

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Vinegar for insulin/glucose regulation

Lorna Cane
 

Thanks,Kirsten. I had mistakenly thought you were talking about horses.
I've never "dosed" it with my horses,since they haven't had glucose issues, but rather just sprinkled it on feed bucket as taste tempter.

It generally is declined if the sprinkle is too large....it can be pretty strong for horses, just in my experience....but many like just  a pinch of it .

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Suspected IR but blood results suggest otherwise

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Emma
I put beet pulp in a mesh laundry net for soaking and rinsing. The holes are big enough to let out any dirt, but small enough to contain the shreds. Some people use a colander. There are some great ideas on our sub-group Horsekeeping if you do a search of the messages there. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Vinegar for insulin/glucose regulation

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Lorna, not in horses.  But cassia cinnamon exceeds the safe upper limit of coumarin consumption at 1/4 tsp a few days a week for a human child, and 1 tsp a day for most adults ( https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0278691511006703  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20024932/).  Unfortunately in adults, the effect on blood sugar are only seen at ~1 tsp a day (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19159947/).  So to see an effect on blood sugar, a human would potentially be exposing themselves to enough coumarin to damage their liver.  If its toxic for humans, I would hesitate to feed it to my horse, even though it may not be toxic for horses we don't know what doses are safe for horses.  Shaku has enough problems already! :)

Thanks Mary, I did see it!  I really wanted to see that there is some background research though, but for horses it appear that there is no research.  The author of that article is making a supposition based on human studies, and while its likely harmless I'd want to know if its actually helpful. Dr. Kellon has now clarified it more by basically saying its highly unlikely to be helpful...  I had hoped enough members here had tried it to be able to report whether or not vinegar actually helped, even if it was anecdotal.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Suspected IR but blood results suggest otherwise

emma@...
 

I've put  some photos of Tom's feet in the album and some of him too.  I washed his feet so they are wet in the photos but I do also have photos of them dry if that would be better.

I can see that rinsing/soaking/rinsing really brings the iron levels down.  Once it is soaked for the full amount of time, it all goes to mush so not sure how you would rinse again. Do you just rinse the soaked beet in lots of extra water and pour out the excess?  Do you rinse it a second time when it is fully soaked or only partially.
--
Emma M in East Sussex, UK 2020
Case History for Tom: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Emma and Tom
Photo Album for Tom: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249458


Re: Savannah’s June 20/20 X-rays & Blood Results & Trim photos loaded to album

Bonnie
 

It's good to hear this update after all Savannah's troubles. Glad she has been "romping around" a bit too. Well done, Pat.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: ACTH Only?

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Sherry,

I had to do a quick search in the messages because Cody's CH isn't up to date but were he mine at this point I'd want to check the ACTH for sure.  His glucose and insulin levels weren't terrible in January and as long as he's on tested or low s/s hay probably aren't as large an area a concern as making sure his ACTH is under control right now.  How has he been doing since you started him on the Prascend?



Re: jesse mouth issues

Sherry Morse
 

Hi LJ,

If it's possible to do more feedings with less food that might be helpful, but the biggest thing is probably just be going to keep an eye on him and if he's doing that odd chewing behavior checking to see if anything is stuck.

One of my friends has a mini who has issues with food accumulating in pockets in his cheeks - when I watch him I usually have to swipe each side clean ever day or two.  With him it doesn't cause him to stop eating or drinking, but he starts to look like he has chipmunk cheeks and that's when I know I need to clean him out.




ACTH Only?

Sherry with Dusty, Blue and Cody
 

Hi All,

I'm getting ready to schedule the vet for Cody's new bloodwork.  Can I test for only ACTH or do I need to do everything again?
--
Sherry, Feb 2018, Gates, NC
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sherry%20and%20Cody  

https://ecir.groups.io/g/DustyHoof/album?id=38179 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/BlueHoof/album?id=38486

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=38227
 

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