Date   

ECIR Group Policy - Sun, 08/02/2020 #cal-notice

main@ECIR.groups.io Calendar <noreply@...>
 

ECIR Group Policy

When:
Sunday, 2 August 2020

Description:

Accuracy of Information

We take the importance of accurate information very seriously. The information in our posts and case histories is of tremendous value to all our members and is also used for formal studies. It is extremely important that it be factual. To protect the integrity and veracity of the group's data, a member may be asked at times to produce documentation, such as a copy of a report. These requests will be rare. Most of you will never receive one. 

 

Solicitation is Against the ECIR Group's Policy:

Whether directly selling a product or service or not, if you are contacted privately by someone, be suspicious. These communications frequently target new members or those in a crisis.  They almost universally push a position, product or service that the sender knows will not be upheld under close examination.

 

We welcome questions, suggestions and individual experiences from every member, but the bottom line is the welfare of the horse. ECIR Group approval is always based on provable facts and scientific methods, not opinions and belief.

 

Anyone who tries to bypass being challenged to support their position with properly assembled facts by sending unsolicited private e-mails rather than posting in the messages is, in our opinion, risking the welfare of horses and will be banned.

 

If you receive an unsolicited e-mail either ask the group about it, or forward the mail to main+owner@ECIR.groups.io 

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

The Owners and Support Team of the ECIR Group

 


Re: Case History-Create New Folder Issue

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Marianne,

Groups did an update the other day and we haven't had a chance to update all of the information documents so when you go to the Case History group in the files section there's now just one button that says "+New" with a little downward facing arrow.  If you click on that button it will then show a drop down list and "New Folder" is an option under there.  

Hope that helps and from that point you should be ok (although again, once you've created a folder the button will still just say "+New" and need to be clicked on to select "Upload File").  Let us know if you get stuck!




Re: Case History-Create New Folder Issue

 

Hi, Marianne.
Since Groups.io is a new platform since you joined long ago, it's possible you need to join the Case History subgroup.

Did you go to this link and follow the instructions to join?
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Weight Gain Woes

 

Hi, Lindsay.

#2. Thanks for confirming that is bedding straw in the picture. I thought it might be, but you never know if you don't ask.  I did look at your hay analysis before I posted. I don't see improvement in Audi's body condition, either. I'm trying to solve that riddle.

#3. Yes, trickle feeding is optimal, but free feeding is not required. Equines don't need to have forage in their mouths 24 hours a day to be trickle fed.  Audi needs to consume enough calories to gain weight. Give him every advantage. If he were mine, I'd feed him alone and feed him with on the track too. 

Dominance alone doesn't guarantee that Audi gets his fair share of the hay on the track with another horse. I've seen this many times with my forever Beta mare, IR, voracious appetite. She's lived with two different dominant mares who were less hungry all the time. Boss Mare gets a sudden urge to reassert that role and marches over to Beta's almost empty hay net to inspect. Meanwhile, Beta charges over the Boss Horse's net and gobbles down as much hay as possible before Boss returns. This can happen many times in a 24 hour period. So while I'd like to keep my horses together, I can do that only when there is no hay or any other feed involved. I wait until the nets are empty and then turn them out together.

#4. Here's a good list of issues regarding pre- and probiotics. The best ones are not cheap. https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/238086   I put them in the leave-no-stone-unturned category. It's often hard to know if they are the thing that works to make a change. OTOH, it is easy to know if they don't work if there is no change. 

#5. Glad to hear you're on top of deworming and parasites with all your critters.  Again, it's in the  leave-no-stone-unturned category. 

--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Case History-Create New Folder Issue

Marianne @ Austin
 

I am sure this button is right in front of me but.....
After clicking on the here hyperlink I land on the Case History page but do not see a New Folder button.   

I did have a file in the old group (2009) but completed the new case history form and joined this group.  Maybe somewhere in there lies the issue.
Thank You in advance for your help-
Marianne in Austin




Marianne@Austin
2009
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/ECHistory/files/Shadow%20-%20Marianne/


Re: Switching from Pergolide to Cabergoline

suzarkr@...
 

Thanks Martha, It's really scary when Knight wont eat since he is so thin right now. I will be sure to keep him on the APF before and after every injection from now on. We were scheduled to give his second injection on Monday, so I was going to start him back up today. I probably could have waited on the injection, but it freaked me out yesterday when he was laying down, in the hot sun, in the middle of the day. He NEVER lays down during the day. Again, it might have just been mild colic, but I wasnt taking any chances. The older he gets, the more this is happening (colic symptoms). He has never had a full blown colic episode, but these little "poor appetite, not eating at all, and laying down" episodes have been off and on since he was 3 years old.
ps. I have an awesome equine veterinarian, Vickie Smalley-Clark, who is always available to me :) Makes all the difference in the world when I can contact her at any time and talk things out!!
--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655


Re: Switching from Pergolide to Cabergoline

suzarkr@...
 

LJ, Reason being is that he has been slowly declining in attitude the last 3 days. I am sure that the first injection was wearing off.

--
Susan Morgan
June 30, 2018
Ione, California
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Susan%20and%20Knight

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=71655


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

Deborah Ide
 

A few years ago I did much the same thing as using tarps and wet stall shavings. I started putting newspaper sheets down around the outside of the paddock and covering them with wet stall shavings. It worked!

--
Deborah
November 2012
Middle Tennessee
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Deborah%20and%20Tara


Re: Uncontrolled founder pain

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

P.S.  Weaning off Banamine should **not** be based on how much time she spends standing. Lying down because her feet hurt is not a bad thing. It protects them. There is no quick cure for this. As long as she is eating, drinking, passing manure and urine, it's OK.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Uncontrolled founder pain

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Pain can increase insulin and is the likely reason here. If you don't have a hay analysis, keep soaking.

I can't be certain on the abscess collections, but there's a strong possibility with this history. You can start her on the Jiaogulan before you are finished weaning Banamine.

Shifting lameness is a hallmark of Lyme in horses. Cornell has the best testing profile https://www.vet.cornell.edu/animal-health-diagnostic-center/testing/protocols/lyme-multiplex-horses , https://ahdc-portal.vet.cornell.edu/#!/test_fee/search .

Her EMS is genetic. It's common in her breed. Nothing actually caused it. The high insulin levels and laminitis are a combined effect of inappropriate diet for her metabolism, excess weight, trim and insufficient exercise.

For her next trim I would maintain her toes/breakover in line with the new growth higher up and get to work on lowering the heels. Small changes are fine but they should be at no longer than 2 week intervals with each trim making positive progress over the one before it. If she has collections/abscesses to mobilize, it's going to be very difficult to have that happen until she is completely off the Banamine and has a more functional hoof form.


--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Need advice for balancing minerals to hay analysis and water test

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Do you know how much she drinks?
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Uncontrolled founder pain

Suzie
 

Filaree doesn't seem to be in quite as much pain as she was a couple of days ago. She's able to stand for longer periods of time.

Questions for Dr Kellon: How often should we be soaking her feet and changing the poultice? I've just returned to active horse duty following a two week post surgery layup and my husband struggles with back pain. He's been doing Filaree's foot care with minimal assistance from me. We're using surgardine poultice recommended by our trimmer. We had a lot of betadine on hand and she said sugardine has properties that would help with the abscesses and prevent further problems. How long should it take for the abscess to come out? If/when we run out of betadine, we'll switch to Numotizine. Yes, our trimmer noted that her heels were a little high and she wanted to take them down a bit, but decided to wait and do that next time (maybe a week or two after her trim on the 28th) because Filaree got soooo sore after her first good trim on June 25th. How certain are you that Filaree has abscesses? What does it mean that her insulin level increased from 63 to 101 in a month, after we started soaking her hay? Our vet wasn't concerned about the increased insulin level. He didn't think it was important. But I'm wondering if the hay soaking isn't helping, can we stop soaking? 

We've owned Filaree since she was a weanling and she has always lived in Southern California. She has never left SoCal. I'm aware that Lyme disease exists in our area. Is laminitis one of the symptoms in horses? Is there a test for it for horses? Filaree hasn't left the property in few years, although a few of our other horses have. should she be tested for pigeon fever and strangles? none of our horses have ever had symptoms. I don't think the vet did CBC work on her, but I'll ask. Her only other previous symptoms have been occasional migrating limb lameness that resulted in a diagnosis of neurological deficits several years ago. She was never head bobbing lame during these occasional episodes, but short striding on one leg or another. She was still safe to ride lightly when the laminitis hit.

We started on Metformin. Hoping that helps bring down the insulin, which will stop the laminitis. But I think we still need to know what's causing the high insulin level and why it increased after we began to soak her hay. We haven't started the jiaogulan yet because we're still weaning her off the banamine. We'll drop dose her again tonight. 

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful suggestions and support. It is so overwhelming though. I feel like we're trying so hard, but it's never enough because Filaree isn't getting better.
Suzie Kirkwood
Descanso, CA
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Suzie%20and%20Filaree 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=250438


Re: Switching from Pergolide to Cabergoline

 

Good for you, Susan, for keeping a cool head and figuring all this out on your own!  After my experience with Logo’s Remarkable Veil, once I got him on APF, I just left him there.  Much as is the case with you, we were still trying to figure out a good dosage schedule for him and, having APF on board, made it possible to adjust our dosing schedule on the fly, according to our observations.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Need advice for balancing minerals to hay analysis and water test

Tucker
 

I just need to know if the calcium in the water affects her balanced diet with the change to Equi VM from Glycemic EQ, or does the added calcium in the water balance the lack of it in the hay? Thank you!

Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Bonnie,

Strips , as wide as needed, of cardboard work well, too. Often just  a taken-apart shipping box is an easy application.

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

celestinefarm
 

Cass, thank you. Besides the high temps for July, we have also been experiencing a drought. I know they should not be in a pasture , even with a muzzle on, but it is my only turnout. I have an outdoor sand arena, but like you, we have to spray and drag and spray( I have to use Liberty to kill mares tail and succulents) so it's often off limits and they will just stand in it with muzzles, and without muzzles, they will pull up weeds, and reach under the fence, etc. It's not an option.  I have been turning them out in their respective pastures early am until about noon, and despite being out, they have opted to come into the run in portion of the barn and stand by 10 am due to the heat.  So they are out trying to pick at grass for about two hours.  Otherwise, they are in stalls with haynets for the next 22 hours. I have never kept horses in like I have the past few months but I'm trying to balance preventing exposure to high sugar grass to simply standing around doing nothing.  I haven't been riding in the past year but all three need to move more. 

All three of them have soft crests (Juniper and Tipperary have experienced hard crests , and fat lumps in the past.. Both of them look better right now than they looked this past winter as far as weight and overt signs) It's like I'm looking in Alice's mirror with the numbers.  Before I've had lower insulin and glucose in the face of obvious clinical symptoms.  I was pretty pleased with how things were looking and decided as a precaution to test early to get ahead of PPID increases. I was absolutely stunned when I got these numbers. 

--
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Re: Weight Gain Woes

lindsaykrauland@...
 

As always, thanks for the replies!

Hi Cass, here are the answers to your questions/comments:

1. I am quite anxious to get his ACTH results.  In some ways, I don’t think he’s looking as well as he did when he first started pergolide.  For example, I thought he was sweating and peeing less shortly after commensing treatment.  However, I’ve lately noticed that he’s back to sweating more than Mo is, and I think he might be urinating more than he had been, too.  It’s hard to say for sure, and considering that he didn’t have a super high ACTH to begin with, I would be surprised if he isn’t well controlled, but he doesn’t *look* fully controlled to me.  Really looking forward to the lab report!

2.  Hmm... Hay on the ground?  I don’t typically feed off the ground...  I’ll bet you’re seeing the straw that I use on the barn floor!  So goodness, no!  That’s not what I’m expecting him to eat!     That said, our hay isn’t the finest and lovliest hay out there.  It *is* on the coarse side (not lke the straw, though!).  I have a hay analysis in my case history if you’d like to see it.  Previously, Dr. Kellon had also brought up the possibility of the hay being an issue, and that’s why I upped his bagged feeds to their current levels.  I went from something like hay/balancer + 4 lb beet pulp, 1 lb flax, and 2 lb timothy cubes up to hay/balancer + 4 lb timothy balance cubes, 2 lb flax, and 5 lb Safe Starch, as was Dr. Kellon’s suggestion.  Honestly, I haven’t seen any major change in his body condition in the more than 1 month that he’s been on the improved diet.  I am still mildly suspicious of his diet/hay, but I believe we would be seeing more of an improvement by now if the hay had been the cuprit.  Is that true?

3.  The horses are separated at meal times, when they receive all their bagged feeds, supplements, and meds.  This is when they’re both getting the highest quality feeds I offer them- Timothy Balance Cubes, Safe Starch, and Golden Flax.  I keep Audi separated from Mo until Audi loses interest in his meal.  I currenly feed 2 meals a day, and everything is carefully weighed.  I can confirm that Audi eats about 5 lb at these meals, give or take.  Occasionally he leaves his morning bowl before it’s totally empty (I don’t think he loves the minerals), and I just add that to his evening Safe Starch.  Sometimes he cleans the bowl, and I top it off with extra Safe Starch until he completely loses interest.

As for hay, I’m not totally clear on how I would separate them for that, since I try to let them trickle feed all day.  That is, unless you’re suggesting I remove all hay from their track and only offer it at a “meal” in the interest of being able to weigh it?  I could do that, the only downside being that I’m not always on the property all day to offer 3 meals, and they would be fasted overnight.  It is really worth it, all things considered?

4.  I can give the prebiotic a try.  Certainly, it can’t hurt anything.  I am slightly confused, however.  In humans, I think of fiber when I think of prebiotics.  Certainly, the horses get plenty of fiber from their hay, so why/when might a prebiotic be needed?  Would a probiotic also potentially be of use?  And thanks for the brand suggestions.  

5.  The horses live on a track system.  Generally, it’s only the horses on there, but the goats (9 head of boers) can also access the track and the barn.  In bad weather, the horses and goats shelter together in the barn.  Occasionally, I graze the cattle (4 head) in the track’s central paddock, and I used the cattle to help clear grass on the track when I was building it.  Currently, the horses and cattle do not have direct access to each other.  We also have poultry- flocks of chickens, turkeys, and guineas.  The guineas patrol the entire property, keeping down bugs and other pests and picking through manure.  The turkeys occasionally wander through the horses’ area also.  The chickens seldom go where the horses are.  We have hogs (4 head).  They are penned about 25’ away from any area the horses access, though they have occasionally been in the pasture.  We also have cats, dogs, and rabbits.  Our animals are wormed as needed and monitored for parasites.  

If you’re considering parasites, it’s probably also worth mentioning wildlife.  I have seen evidence of raccoons, skunks, rabbits, and armadillos with regularity in the horses area.  I saw a single coyote on our property.  Deer are kept out by an 8’ game fence & our electric fencing.  

We have oppossum in the area, though I’ve only seen a single one on our property in the past few years, and that was up near the house.  I’m sure there are others that I’m not seeing.  My only real parasite concern for the horses is EPM.  That *could* cause the weight issues we see in Audi, but I think his overall picture is far more suggestive of PPID than of EPM.  He has no neurological issues, only some stiffness presumably caused by years of poor shoeing and radiograph-confirmed arthritis.


Dr. Kellon, after some back and forth, my vet ended up sending the ACTH & insulin  to Cornell instead of to A&M.  Is that what you mean when you say send to them directly? As for sample handling, when I draw for ACTH, I use pre-chilled EDTA tubes and immediately put the sample on ice and take it straight to the vet.  I confirmed with the vet that they know to keep the sample chilled and spin it down ASAP.  And when I received the lab report from A&M, it noted directly on the report that the sample was received frozen and in a plastic tube, so I think everything was done exactly as it need to be.     

Dr. Kellon, back a month ago or so, when you suggested I switch up Audi’s diet, you said to discontinue feeding him beet pulp in lieu of increased Balance Cubes & Flax, plus the addition of Safe Starch.  Considering that he’s still so skinny, do you think it’s a good idea to add in some beet pulp now?

--
Lindsay in TX 2020

Audi Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lindsay%20and%20Audi

Audi Photo Album:
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=248156 


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

 

I have given up relying on the USPS for any critical mails lately.  It took them 6 days to deliver a letter sent to a place that is 10 miles from me.   I am pretty certain this is related to the new policies, and may even get worse as they have stopped postal employees from working any overtime.

--
Gail Russell 8/30/2008

 

 https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Gail%20and%20Brother%20-%20Odin%20-%20Decaffe%20%20-Gunthar .


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

Bonnie
 

Thanks, Cass, for giving this method of blocking growth under the fence line. I have been trying discarded shavings alone, with minimal results: new grass pokes through. Will round up some trashed tarps and make strips ASAP.
--
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008
 


Re: Time of day influencing glucose levels

celestinefarm
 

Yes, my vet said the same thing, but mail right now is about as screwed up as it can be. MSU has a warning on their lab site right now not to use mail services.

Shipping Notice: The MSU VDL has been experiencing intermittent delays in receiving packages from the United States Postal Service (USPS). These delays can compromise the quality of the specimen(s) shipped and impact our ability to perform the requested service. If your submission is impacted by delays in shipping using USPS, we will contact you. We continue to receive timely delivery from our overnight carriers, FedEx and UPS.

Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .