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Re: Advice Please- our first laminitic episode

 

On Sun, Aug 9, 2020 at 07:16 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD wrote:
you certainly could use TRH stimulation to determine how much suppression your dose of pergolide is providing
Dr Kellon, what would we be looking for to see that effect? Pre- and Post- TRH values fairly close?
 
--
Cass, Sonoma Co., CA 2012
ECIR Group Moderator
Cayuse and Diamond Case History Folder                
Cayuse Photos                Diamond Photos 


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Lorna Cane
 

Aha !
The nice woman at Top Shelf sent me some info. I am going to include this anyway,even though you are stopping it,Cheryl.

Protein Sources: Peas,Lysine HCl
Fibre Sources: Dehydrated alfalfa, wheat millrun
Minerals: Limestone,mono dicalcium phosphate, salt, copper sulphate, manganese oxide, manganese sulphate, zinc sulphate, zinc oxide, ferrous sulphate, calcium iodate, cobalt sulphate, selenium yeast, zinc methionine complex, copper lysine complex, cobalt glucoheptonate
Vitamins: A, D3, E H2 (biotin)
Energy Sources: Oil
Additives: Yeast culture
To be fed at 250 g ( ~1 1/3 cups) daily to 1000 pound horse.

Fibre sources are red flags,for sure. 
--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Dr. Kellon: Should Ike be on Metformin?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

You have made progress since December but it looks like the collateral grooves at the tip of the frog are still very shallow. Have you measured? You could put a ramp on the heels and be a little more aggressive with backing up the toe. Jiaogulan would make the hooves grow faster but you will have to trim more often.

Hoof Armor may make him less sensitive but it doesn't actually fix anything.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr. Kellon: Should Ike be on Metformin?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Julie,

Thanks for adding the pix.

Agree that Ike should remain in boots the majority of the time he isn't on a soft, yielding surface as the soles are quite thin. There is some sinking on the rads, so that is part of the the thin sole issue. On the fronts, the toes need to come back a bit more. Heels are somewhat underrun so the back half of the foot isn't providing the needed support. Medio-lateral balance appears OK, no obvious wall flaring. Frogs aren't as robust as they could be, which points to him not landing heel-first regularly. That will also contribute to the thinner soles.

On the hinds, the toes are too far out ahead of him and heels are seriously underrun. Again, he's not getting the support from the back half of the foot as it has been displaced. Frogs are much more robust than on the front feet.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Cheryl Oickle
 

Sorry cant find the link for Island Horse...not to savvy with technology.  Given the feed back and articling from you all i will at least take her off this supplement immediately and reassess  her blood work and go back to Dr Reeds formula 2
which is obviously a better choice. My hay comes from Washington btw from a supplier that tests...esc 7 starch 0.2

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel%20Port%20Alberni%20BC%20Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Cheryl Oickle
 

I use a gps/tracking device and so dies my partner. We are in the accurate ball park on time and distance. 75 to 100 miles per month is normal from Marc to Oct for sure
--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel%20Port%20Alberni%20BC%20Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Lorna Cane
 

Cheryl? Did you mean to include a link? Or something ?

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Dr. Kellon: Should Ike be on Metformin?

Julie Thomas
 

I have posted current pics of Ike's feet as of 8/8/2020 per Sherry's request.  Please let me know if they don't meet the needs & I'll try again.  His last trim was on 7/27/20; his next trim is scheduled for 8/24 - we are on a regularly scheduled 4-week trim cycle.  Any thoughts/guidance to help get Ike's feet feeling better so we can get him out of boots would be greatly appreciated.  Any trim comments?

FYI - at his appointment on 8/24 my farrier is planning to apply hoof armor.  Any thoughts on this approach?  
Thank you all!
--
- Julie Thomas
September 2018, Seabeck, WA
Case Histories: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Julie-Ike-Sparky  .
Ike Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73042  .
Sparky Photos: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=73044  .


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Lorna Cane
 

Hi Cheryl,

Not Sherry, but I found a post which might interest you,from one of our past members(and a vet),Jaini,who lives in Smithers.
She was chatting with a member from Victoria about some of the possiblilities for her hay.

I can't make the link work to your CH right now,so don't know if you have a hay analysis there,but thought this might help sort through things.
https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/193130?p=,,,100,0,0,0::Created,,jaini+MadBarn+IR+supplement,100,2,0,1061460


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: balancing hay and water

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Stabul 1 doesn't do any balancing. It's a carrier for your supplements and a calorie source.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Cheryl Oickle
 

As requested re Island horse. Please critique... feed back helpful from all folks

--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel%20Port%20Alberni%20BC%20Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Cheryl Oickle
 

Thanks Sherry..Need any suggestions for a mineral supplement I can buy in Canada that will meet her requirements then.  She will NOT take the Mad Barn Amino Trace at all not to say the cost of 2 buckets that failed her taste test at 65$ each


--
Cheryl and Jewel
Oct 2018
Port Alberni BC Canada
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cheryl%20and%20Jewel%20Port%20Alberni%20BC%20Canada

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=81063


Re: Cornell lab results, nutritional advice

Kandee Rockett
 

Thank you Dr Kellon!  I will definitely do that! I appreciate this valuable advice very much!
--
Thanks,
Kandice and TWH Mare  Bunny
North Central TX  joined 2/19

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandice%20and%20Bunny


Re: Cornell lab results, nutritional advice

Kandee Rockett
 

Thanks Sherry! I was afraid that would be the case but will do  ASAP.  The vet said .5mg for 2 weeks but I was unsure based on discussions I've read on this group.
--
Thanks,
Kandice and TWH Mare  Bunny
North Central TX  joined 2/19

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kandice%20and%20Bunny


Re: balancing hay and water

Tucker
 

Hi Dr. Kellon,
Does this mean I can discontinue the Stabul 1 too, along with discontinuing the Glycemic EQ and Amino Trace. Thanks!
--
Tucker and Indigo
NC, Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Tucker%20and%20Indigo 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=80036 
 


Re: Cornell lab results, nutritional advice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Kandice,

I would get her up to 1 mg immediately then get her some APF and go up to 2 mg at .5 mg increments 3 days apart. She's a full blown laminitis waiting to happen. Diet alone won't protect her but it doesn't have to be adding to the risk. Put her on 100% coastal, no alfalfa. Increase her cubes or add R/S/R beet pulp if she needs it to hold weight.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 With that level of exercise, I'd definitely recheck insulin at another lab.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Advice Please- our first laminitic episode

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I don't think I've ever seen a good discussion of this but you certainly could use TRH stimulation to determine how much suppression your dose of pergolide is providing. The dex suppression test was used that way in the past. It's not reliable this time of year for diagnosis because no one has determined the seasonal ranges but if the goal is to keep good suppression all year you could use it.

I've never heard of a laminitis flare linked to TRH stimulation, probably because the effect is short-lived.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Insulin Bloodwork...increasing

Sherry Morse
 

Hey Cheryl,

Just a quick question - are you using a GPS or App to track your rides?  Just wondering as that's more mileage than I put on my guy when we were conditioning for 50 mile rides and at an average of 8 - 10 hours a week or riding that's not leaving a whole lot of time for rest and recovery.  I don't know if/how that would effect her insulin so this is more just a random thought than anything else.

As far as MadBarn and Island Horse Supplement - they have a bunch of feeds in that commercial feed database (https://madbarn.com/feed-types/commercial/ is the main link) that aren't made by them and there are various levels of information on them which I suppose is based on what's available.  I'm a bit mystified as to why they'd have a database like that and not have more info on the products on it but it's literally the only place I've been able to find anything about that product online.




Re: Advice Please- our first laminitic episode

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Kelly,

I may have missed this, but are the TRH results in your Case History or an email?  Has this test been redone since his intital diagnosis last year?  As per the advice in your welcome email (Re: Follow up Tests to Determine if Pergolide dose is ideal) there should have been a follow-up test after Buddy was on the target dose to see if the pergolide was effective.  At this time of year with the rise starting it's going to be a bit difficult to assess if the dose is working for him or not using TRH so it may be best to just do a straight ACTH test.


Looking at his CH and x-rays the things that are going to help him the most right now are getting his diet in order (meaning no more than 20lbs a day total of hay plus any hard feeds) and getting his trim sorted out.  Has he been trimmed since those x-rays were taken?




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