Date   

Re: Triple Crown Naturals Golden Flax

Kelly Gilmartin
 

Ok thanks Nancy. I will use different language next time- sorry by “approved” what i really meant to ask was,”what has been members experience with....”

I appreciate your help
--
Kelly Gilmartin/Buddy
Western Massachusetts 
member since 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Apostrophe%20GCH/BuddyCaseHistoryAug2020.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251736


Re: Second request, please :) Chromium studies

Cindy Giovanetti
 

Thank you.  You’re the best.


On Aug 16, 2020, at 11:21 AM, Eleanor Kellon, VMD via groups.io <drkellon@...> wrote:

I haven't read the whole first article but just the abstract  shows insulin going higher, not lower, with chromium:

"following the GTT did not differ among controls and horses given 8 mg Cr/d. Following glucose infusion, serum insulin concentrations were greater (P < 0.05) in horses fed 2 or 4 mg Cr and tended to be greater in those fed 8 mg Cr/d compared with controls."

It's not clear how they defined insulin sensitivity.

The second study I have read in its entirety. It studied young horses on very high grain rations. They found glucose was cleared more quickly with chromium but "No difference in insulin sensitivity was detected (P > .10)."
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001



Re: Second request, please :) Chromium studies

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

I haven't read the whole first article but just the abstract  shows insulin going higher, not lower, with chromium:

"following the GTT did not differ among controls and horses given 8 mg Cr/d. Following glucose infusion, serum insulin concentrations were greater (P < 0.05) in horses fed 2 or 4 mg Cr and tended to be greater in those fed 8 mg Cr/d compared with controls."

It's not clear how they defined insulin sensitivity.

The second study I have read in its entirety. It studied young horses on very high grain rations. They found glucose was cleared more quickly with chromium but "No difference in insulin sensitivity was detected (P > .10)."
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Triple Crown Naturals Golden Flax

Nancy C
 
Edited

Hi Kelly

Regarding this flax, it is used by many members to fill the Essential Fatty Acid needs.  The concern with any high fat additive is not to give too much and use one that has the profile similar to fresh grass. This is important as most of our horses are not on grass. Flax is ~30% fat. To meet the EFA needs, you need only 2-4 weighed ounces per day, depending on the weight and history of your horse, . 

Edited to add: See Omega 3 and 6 info here.  https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/golden-ground-flax/

Just to be clear, ECIR Group doesn't "approve" any feeds or supplements but -- in general -- recommends those that have have demonstrated the willingness to meet the needs of our members.  If you can't find the info on any label, members have found that writing to the company can often supply answers they seek and register customer concerns, sometimes moving the needle for the benefit of our horses.

HTH
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Triple Crown Naturals Golden Flax

Kelly Gilmartin
 

Is this approved? Can’t find NSC anywhere. Thanks in advance 
--
Kelly Gilmartin/Buddy
Western Massachusetts 
member since 2019
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Apostrophe%20GCH/BuddyCaseHistoryAug2020.pdf

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=251736


Re: Podcast episode

Joy V
 

Just added to my spotify so I can listen while I'm cleaning paddocks @ the barn tonight.  Looking forward to it Alicia.


--
Joy and Willie (PPID/IR)  

Case history:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Joy%20and%20Willie
Willie's photo album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=242526


Re: Heat and ACTH Testing

Nancy C
 

Hi Sally

Sorry you are at this level of heat.  Not fun.

I am not aware of heat affecting ACTH.  Cold can affect insulin, however.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Second request, please :) Chromium studies

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Cindy
No doubt Dr Kellon and more experienced moderators have a more informed opinion, but my quick initial response as an owner to reading the study's abstract is that it wasn't conducted using IR horses, so whether the results apply to our IR horses is a question. Quarter Horses are not a breed usually prone to IR, plus these were young horses. I'd want to see a table with the baseline insulin and glucose levels for all the horses before the study started. I'd also want to see the details of their 'concentrate feed' and an analysis of their 'grass hay'. 

As far as feeding chromium, I seem to remember from my NRC Plus course notes that unless your hay is from an area with alkaline soils, it's not likely to be deficient. 

 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Second request, please :) Chromium studies

Cindy Giovanetti
 

I was just about to give away some Chromium yeast, but someone told me there is a recent study that says we should be giving our EMS horses Chromium.  

Would Dr. K care to comment?  Thank you so much!

https://academic.oup.com/jas/article-abstract/98/4/skaa095/5811456?fbclid=IwAR1QQ_shQ8DfvAvBbpJOIvP1FIeLFh_hsqLXslgftC4ZB8hdg3JQf2U_biM

https://academic.oup.com/jas/article-abstract/77/11/3022/4625381?fbclid=IwAR0jMsbDVeT_zqARbDDBvNxe2Wl048QKJqEm8RCQOAL9VEJcHuGaVHrysKg

Thanks in advance.

--
Cindy, Oden, and Eeyore, North Texas
On ECIR protocol since 2/19
https://www.facebook.com/LifeWithOden/
History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Cindy%20and%20Oden
Photos:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=91125


Re: Mark ups on hoof radiographs request (Lavinia?) - hoof images added

Maxine McArthur
 

I have used a brand-new Heller rasp to modify breakover on Fusions. About the same degree of difficulty as rasping a hard dry black hoof in summer. The Gloves are easier to rasp than the Fusions. 
--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Re: Mark ups on hoof radiographs request (Lavinia?) - hoof images added

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I have Equine Fusion All-Terrain with the leather upper.  Newer models have a washable nylon upper which I would choose over the leather if I bought them again.  They have certainly held up well on the soles but the velcro on the leather uppers is basically worn out, however they still stay on in the paddock.  I had problems with the leather uppers rubbing on rides, requiring socks to protect the pastern, but not in the paddock.  I also sometimes see some bruising on the heel bulbs that I think is from a seam in the leather.  I'm sure the new nylon uppers resolved all these problems.

I can post photos of the bevel when I am home next week, but really we just tried to roll them all around the sides and especially fronts, and the bevel is very subtle because we didn't want to shorten the life of the boot by removing too much, plus it was really hard to do because the rubber soles are very hard to grind!  And we didn't really know what we were doing!  Lol

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: water analysis

Daisy Shepherd
 

thank you dr.kellon. you did my hay analysis recently so i feel confident that all  is in order.  thanks again, daisy and tiko
--
-- 
Daisy, Tiko and Whisper
CO, April 2019
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Daisy%20and%20Tiko 
Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=90099&p=Name,,,20,2,0,0


Re: Podcast episode

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

I just listened to it this morning on my way to the 2nd day of a 4-day trimming course and thoroughly enjoyed it, also started on Dr Bowker's podcast on my way home.  Thank you Alicia! 

By the way the leaders of the trimming class are big proponents of ECIR and Dr Kellon!  Nice to see that they are very familiar with what ECIR advocates, and that they incorporate dietary advice into their program.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Can supplements be preventative?

Maxine McArthur
 

Hi Alice
Lavinia has addressed your question about the supplement mentioned. There are many things you can do, however, that will make a real difference in managing your horse safely. Please read through the welcome message below (and the clickable links), as it gives you the details of our tried-and-true protocol of Diagnosis, Diet, Trim, Exercise. Unfortunately, there are no magic supplements out there that can do the job of DDTE. If you have any more questions, please ask!

Hello 

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 




--
Maxine and Indy (PPID) and Dangles (PPID)

Canberra, Australia 2010
ECIR Primary Response

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Maxine%20and%20Indy%20and%20Dangles 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=933

 


Heat and ACTH Testing

larkstabatha
 

Hello... As are many in the West and Southwest, we are in a heat wave.  111 degrees here today.  My vet is scheduled to come out Monday morning at 11 am to draw blood for ACTH testing to determine if my horse and Donkey may need adjustments to their Pergolide dose going in to the Seasonal rise.  

I noticed on the ECIR Case History form it asks what the outside temperature is at the time the testing was done.  While we are within two days of the date that they were tested last year, the temperature will be drastically higher.  

May I please ask how that might impact our interpretation of their test results....?

Thanks very much, Sally
--
Sally in Big Park, Arizona/April 2013

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Sally%20with%20Tabby%20and%20Maisie 

  

 

 


Re: Can supplements be preventative?

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Alice,

Welcome to the group. You will be receiving our full welcome message soon but in the meanwhile, Fjords are one of the breeds that are high on the list for being IR. As such, maintaining their weight at optimal levels really should be a priority.

That supplement is designed to work on lowering glucose levels, which aren't the problem in an IR horse. It won't do anything to improve insulin sensitivity so is a waste of your money. Great that you are riding her as exercise is one of the best things you can do to help keep your girl healthy.

At her age, PPID is also a possibility and we are now entering the time of year when undiagnosed/untreated PPID is the most dangerous. It might make sense to speak to your vet about running blood work to determine for sure whether your girl is IR and/or PPID or not before a bout of laminitis confirms it for you.

You can do some more reading here:

https://www.ecirhorse.org/

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Podcast episode

Alicia Harlov
 

Thank you everyone for the feedback!

Yes, the link is shareable at https://thehumblehoof.libsyn.com/managing-the-metabolic-horse

Hope that helps! 
--
-Alicia Harlov in South Hamilton, MA 
PHCP hoofcare provider, The Humble Hoof podcast


Re: Boot for Cooper

Bobbie Day
 

Well I can honestly say I have just about every boot out there, Desi has soft rides, equine fusions, scoot boots, easy boots. And I’ve tried others as well. She is hard to fit because of her heels although she has pretty small feet.
Soft rides are my go to favorite for winter, she has two pairs, neither one is a perfect fit but since she’s in socks all winter we rotate while one dries. I duct tape them to keep snow out. But they’re heavy, very heavy so keep that in mind. Today she’s in her fusions, they’re light, breathable and stay on without twisting and I add pads. I’ll probably change her out tomorrow to her scoots, I use scoots on all my riding horses. Easy to clean and light, but they will allow dirt inside. But again because of her heels they do rub a little so she’s in light socks.
I wish I could say we could go without but since her arthritis has acted up I can’t leave her barefoot. Clouds did not work for her at all.
You may have to try a couple different brands, but whichever you choose let the dealer size for you. Once I was sure what size we needed I was able to buy some good used ones on the hoof boot exchange page on FB, and if they don’t work out there’s always someone looking for boots.
Good luck 😊


--
Bobbie and Desi
NRC March 2020
Utah, Nov 2018

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Bobbie%20and%20Desi

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=78821


Can supplements be preventative?

Alice MacGillivray
 

I have a 19 year old Fjord mare who has not [yet] shown signs of insulin resistance. She goes on a couple of trail rides a week and is a bit heavier than she should be, but not by much. The place where I board her doesn't want to give her any supplements she doesn't need. I had bought this supplement https://www.horseherbs.com/collections/digestion/products/simmirdown designed to "improve glucose utilization and prevent laminitis by improving insulin recognition in the gastro tract.  This means that feed 'sugars' can be more safely disposed of." Ingredients are "Cinnamon Bark, Cyanocobalamin, Fenugreek, Folate, Magnesium Sulfate, Nutritional Yeast, Vitamin B1, Vitamin B2, Vitamin B3, Vitamin B5, Vitamin B6, Yeast Chromate."

Do you as experts think this is a good preventative supplement, or it won't hurt, or it's better not to use it?
Thank you very much in advance.  Alice MacGillivray


Re: Podcast episode

 

Here it the link to the podcast....it isn't a video per say but you can listen on any device

https://thehumblehoof.libsyn.com/managing-the-metabolic-horse  

--
Nancy and Akira
3/20/2018  Burkesville KY

Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Akira

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