Date   

Re: Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

Lorna Cane
 

Me jumping in,Reta.

As an aside....Reta is diligent about keeping a journal, and it has been so helpful in reminding us of what was happening when, and how much time had passed between this and that. So often, going over this case,we wondered about a timeline,and the journal has always  filled  in our memory gaps.

Over the past 45ish years of caring for about 15 horses, I've never fed those of Whistler's size 20+ pounds of hay  a day, to keep them in good weight. They were in the range of 940 pounds . If they did get close to 1000 pounds (before I found this group), they were fat  .
So this is colouring my perceptions here.
And ,as Reta has said, Whistler maintained good weight for the 3 years he has been here, on 16-18 pounds of total feed a day.His hay nets usually had a bit remaining in them in the morning (maybe only a pound or two), and he never seemed stressed about not having had enough.
The saddle issues have a role to play,and this is being addressed. But until a wee hack yesterday,he hadn't been ridden for about 2 1/2 months ( Reta ? ) , saddle issues/body condition and humidity playing a role. I would have expected the lack of exercise , combined with extra hay would have been noticeable. Instead he became too thin. Otherwise looking a feeling great.
He weighs about 1084 pounds now.(tape) If I were told a 14.3hh pony weighed this, my first impression would be too much food,too little exercise.
But, then I look at Whistler,and to my eye he looks great now . Bones not prominent. Shiny coat. Clear eyes.
But for 3 years he has looked great at about 950 pounds....sigh.

I'm inclined to reduce his total feed to 20 pounds. That's 18 pounds hay and 2 pounds carrier for minerals.
We have time before winter (when I wouldn't want to be experimenting) to watch BW and attitude.
Or....just listen to him and if he begins to look heavier than now, reduce then ?


--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: New Member - Bullitt Laminitis

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Sarah, glad you found us! 

1/4 cup (measured when dry) RSR beet pulp is probably just enough to hold the supplements, but I know when I add the daily dose of salt to that small amount it makes it harder for my guy to eat it because it's too salty.  However, he does eventually eat it all.  You may need to feed salt (or some salt) separately or use a little more beet pulp.  Beet pulp is calorie dense so experiment to find the minimum amount that works.

If he is a lot of pain still, we generally advise holding off on testing as stress and pain can increase insulin and ACTH and scew a diagnosis.  But usually once they are on the emergency diet, pain often drops off within a couple days and you can have blood pulled.  He does not need to be completely pain free for testing, just not in a full blown acute phase of laminitis.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Grey Horse Melanoma and AAKG

 

Thanks for your posts, twelve_gates.  It would be helpful to those of us reading if you included a signature, including how we should address you, when you joined ECIR and your general location.  You can do that most easily at the bottom of the Subscription page.  We’re requiring that of new members now and encouraging others to help out by updating as well.

I have no doubts about any of your cannabis posts.  It appears to be something that can be extremely helpful or not and you won’t know unless you try it.  Good reports encourage others to try it and they will frequently, but not always, have success as well.  

My spouse is a neurologist MD, PhD who developed an interest in cannabis as medicine in the mid 80’s.  He began advocating for its use in our state legislature at that point and was invited by other states to do the same there.  Between his work and the efforts of many patients who use it successfully, ‘medical marijuana’ became legal in Vermont in a manner that did not cause too much uproar.  The sky didn’t fall and now it is legal for any adult to use here, which has caused some consternation among those who grew for the medical market.
Much of what he has learned through his following the research (all non US as funding for research was very limited In the US) has rubbed off on me so I know a lot more about it than I might otherwise have.

Marijuana is a slang term for cannabis and it tends to refer to strains that have a higher THC/CBD ratio than others.  All cannabis plants have both THC and CBD; hemp has very little THC and apparently Swiss cannabis has a lot.  There are no 100% THC plants.  What I believe is meant is that 100% of her dose is high THC, as opposed to a mix of high THC (‘marijuana’) and low THC (‘CBD’).  Cannabinoids, including THC, CBD and many others we’re less familiar with exhibit what is called an entourage effect, where a combination is more effective than each individually.  

Early in his advocating he would give Grand Rounds on medical cannabis to whoever would listen.  He arranged to speak to the oncologists and they only knew of cannabis in terms of controlling nausea associated with chemo.  They were surprised by and somewhat dismissive of the concept that it might have anti tumor effects.  Now we know differently.  

The image of a marijuana smoker has been of a fat, lazy stoner with his face in the fridge.  But it turns out that cannabis users as whole have lower BMI’s and their insulin is better regulated than non-users.  I’ve long held the idea that if we weren’t so careful to eradicate cannabis plants growing wild, our horses might be healthier.  THC needs to be heated in order to become active as a mind altering substance.

--

Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

 Nancy,

Problem is it will come back when you try to increase the pergolide unless his microflora is in better shape. Try him on Absorb-All double dose for a week before increasing again.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Dr K advice please

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Kelly,

He is overabsorbing iron but his ferritin is borderline. I suspect the PPID is driving this. He also needs to lose weight so if that's not happening on 20 lbs of hay you will have to reduce it further. Metformin is reasonable in your situation. Arrange to have your vet recheck his insulin a week after starting and only get a 10 to 14 day supply to start - no sense in spending money on it if it's not going to work. Balance the hay to no higher than 4:1 Fe:Cu.

You have made very good progress is correcting his broken back axis but the toe still needs to come back **without touching the sole or removing height from the hoof** and the hoof wall beveled. That will help him gain the concavity he needs but he'll need pads and boots for now.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Grey Horse Melanoma and AAKG

Maureen Dunn
 

Since I have a grey with melanoma and another horse with IR, after I received this information, I did a quick search to see if cannabis would be of any benefit to IR horses. While I understand that there is no correlation between human studies and horse studies, this was interesting: https://www.amjmed.com/article/S0002-9343%2813%2900200-3/abstract


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Niki,

The only way to know if metronidazole would help is to try it. Is there any particular reason why you do monthly psyllium? If you go to daily it may lose the purge effect as the organisms become better at fermenting it.  Beet pulp is also a good source of prebiotic soluble fiber.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Niki,

To get the full benefit of the medication it's best if it's administered all at once.  I'm sorry I can't help with the psyllium question or the metronidazole.




Re: Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

Trisha DePietro
 

I have a similar experience with one of my horses....she needs to have 3% fed of her ideal body weight to maintain a consistent weight. Otherwise, she loses and gains sporadically if I drop it to 1.5% or even 2%. She tends to stand and eat all day unless I break it up with purposeful activity. I think her leptin button is broken.:) Since I found something that works to keep her at a good weight consistently....I don't mess with it. In winter I still go up on hay amounts due to extreme cold, but other than that its at 3%...Just my experience....
--
Trisha DePietro
Aug 2018
NH
Dolly and Hope's Case Histories https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Trisha%20and%20Dolly%20-%20Hope
Dolly's Photos 
Hope's Photos 
Primary Responder


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Maria Duran
 

Hi!

When I started Prascend on Yayo he had squirts and cow manure at just 0.5 mg, (started at 0.25 mg) it lasted for about 3 weeks, he was still at 0.5 mg when he stabilized by himself, I had added glutamine but I don´t believe it helped or maybe it did, When I rised the dose to 0.75 mg and 1 mg he was fine, he is now at 1.5 mg and no issues, he also showed swollen pasterns and lethargy for a month or so even with APF on board for the initial doses, but it got solved by itself and now he doesn´t show those side effects when he needs a higher dose.

I go for a week at 0.25 intervals when I need to increase the dose and he is fine, APF was only used for the increase at 0.5 mg in the begining, Just my experience with him, maybe larger periods and smaller dose at each interval would work but we are in the seasonal rise so it is tricky to cope with diarrhea when ACTH is increasing so fast and needs a tight control.

Hope Twister is better.
--
María Durán Navarro 
Dec 2017
Madrid (Spain)

Plutón´s Case History
Plutón´s Photo Album
_._,_._,_


Re: Dx Question

 
Edited

Hi Suzanne,

Welcome to the ECIR group!  Nancy has addressed your immediate concerns but I wanted to stress that redoing the testing sooner than later would be best, especially if you’re testing ACTH again.  Analyzing the results and making changes with pergolide become more difficult the further we get into the rise.  I also am interested in the reason you were giving him bute.  Was this just to increase his comfort after the demanding competition or is there another reason we should be aware of?
As Nancy said, you have done an excellent job of presenting his case, which undoubtedly reflects the care you give him.  He sounds like the picture of health!  
I’m here to give you our ECIR group welcome, which contains lots of information you’ve undoubtedly already read.  I find I learn something new each time I look through the details.  Don’t hesitate to ask any questions you might have.

Welcome to the group! 

The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck. 

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating". 

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you. 

--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Bruce and Niki Eike
 

I have a similar issue with a pony who us on 1/3 tablet of Prascend.  Is there any value in splitting the dose 1/2 in am and 1/2 in pm?

She does better during her monthly psyllium purge - should I continue the psyllium if so how much for how long?

How would I know if metronidazole would be useful?  I seem to remember that when she was on Doxy for anaplasmosis - she did betterbut I am not 100% certain..
--

Niki with Sarah and Ginger
MD, USA
Joined  2006
Case Histories
Ginger's Photos
Ω


Re: Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

Sherry Morse
 

Hi Reta,

Self-regulating - to me - means the horse isn't standing with its head in the hay 24/7 and eating continuously.  From your description it doesn't sound like Whistler is doing that so he is in fact self-regulating to some extent. 

As far as the why of the weight loss and then why he needs to eat so much to maintain his weight - not sure if you're ever going to have a good answer on that if all his bloodwork looks good and he's not having any obvious issues. 

And finally, unfortunately, the only way to know if regulating his hay will cause a problem is to do it and see what happens. However, at this point unless he started to become fat on the free choice hay I wouldn't be that concerned with regulating him as I would be with a horse that did nothing but eat all day and turn into a whale.




Re: Dr K advice please

Nancy C
 
Edited

Not Dr Kellon, but I just wanted to add my support of the info you have received from the Support Team in regard to diet, iron, insulin and thyrol-L.

High serum iron is a function of what he is eating.  Tightly balancing as Kathleen will do, will begin to address this.  It takes time. 

Thyroid and weight issues will also be addressed by a thorough review of dietary intake, and addressing the excess and deficiency of minerals. Many of us have found we did not need the thyrol-l to bring the thyroid back into good function. Correctly balancing the diet also supports metabolic function. You can read more about this from Dr Kellon's NO Laminitis! lecture on Minerals and IR.  You may also find her lecture on Iron Overload and IR helpful. Both can be downloaded here for free.

https://www.ecirhorse.org/proceedings-2013.php

I think you may have heard that in general, ECIR recommends to save metformin for emergency cases.  You may be there, however, Dr Kellon may have other input.

--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Re: Dr K advice please

 

Hi Kelly,
I looked at your hay test and it appears to be NIR (near infrared) rather than wet chemistry.  It won’t be as accurate as the tests we usually use but from anything I can find that relates to sugars and starches, I would be soaking and rinsing the hay.  There is no test for iron that I could see and it’s possible that could be higher than is being accounted for.  My hay last year had higher iron than that cut from the same field the previous year which my hay supplier attributed to his rake that was digging dirt and in need of replacing.  What has Dr. Gustafson recommended for you in terms of balancing?
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Dx Question

Nancy C
 

Hi Suzanne

Welcome.  You are posting in the right place.  You did a great job getting your info in order and we really appreciate it. Hang in there.  It gets easier.

You soon get a full welcome message but I wanted to comment on your blood work and medication question.

By September our horses are going in to seasonal rise, but if he were here, I would repeat the blood work.  NSAIDS (Bute) does affect the thyroid results.  If he was stressed at the time of the test it could affect as you noted.  If he was home, and back in his relaxed comfy place, it may have been okay.

With his age and ACTH at higher normal, I'd want to retake that as well.

I am assuming your vet is suggesting the thyrol-l because of test results. Many of us have found that by getting on a balanced diet, adding in things like iodine that may be lacking, and controlling PPID if needed, the thyroid will come back into normal ranges without the drug.

You will get a lot more info from one of our erstwhile Support Team members.  Hang in there.
--
Nancy C in NH
ECIR Moderator 2003
ECIR Group Inc. President/Treasurer  2019-2020
Join us at the 2021 NO Laminitis! Conference, August 12-15, Harrisburg, PA


Dr K advice please

Kelly Gilmartin
 

Hi Dr Kellon,
I welcome your advice on my recent addition to my case history.  Buddy has a 1:1 insulin to glucose ration and is still recovering from our first bout of laminitis. I am working with Kathleen Gustafson to help balance hay, removed him from pasture and am weighing hay.  

What can I do to get the iron levels down and given I cant exercise quite yet, would you suggest metformin? I welcome your expert guidance as I try and do my best for Buddy.  
--
Kelly Gilmartin/Buddy
Western Massachusetts 
member since 2019
Case History: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kelly%20and%20Apostrophe%20GCH

Photo Album: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/photosearch?q=Apostrophe


Re: Twister Diarrhea again

Nancy & Vinnie & Summer
 

I reduced the prascend dosage to about half the quarter pill.(is that. 0.125mg?) And that seend to do the trick.
--
Nancy and Vinnie and Summer
Oakley, Ca
Joined Nov 2018
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=245855

Summer
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Nancy%20and%20Vinnie/Summer 
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=249104


Whistler - Body Condition & Food Consumption

Reta Heaslip
 

On July 7, 2020 I posted a message regarding Whistler's deteriorating body condition. At the time his bony parts (ribs, spine, hips & pelvis) were very prominent with little protection. I was concerned, as was Lorna Cane who I board with, about the cause of what appeared to be weight loss and reached out to ECIR for help. A number of possibilities were considered including insufficient daily hay ration, teeth, worms, inclimate weather (heat wave) and ulcers. Based on photos posted, Dr. Kellon noted "the muscle loss along the topline is far more evident than shoulders, neck, upper legs and propulsive muscles of the hindquarters. The ribs are more prominent than they should be but he has some abdominal laxity and/or distention that is pulling the skin tight over the ribs and contributing to that appearance." She recommended tests for ACTH and Serum Vitamin A. I also requested a CBC/Profile from my Vet. Subsequently the test results showed ACTH at 2.8 pmol/L suggesting a Controlled PPID, Serum Vitamin E was adequate and components of the blood chemistry were all within recommended ranges. My Vet suggested Equitop Myoplast to help develop topline, however, with the advise of ECIR, I decided not to use this product. Whistler's teeth were rechecked, he was dewormed and, as for the weather, Dr. Kellon noted "Heat stress can cause dehydration but this causes evenly distributed weight loss and I don't see that." Of note, there have not been any other clinical signs, other than muscle loss along the topline, to help identify the nature of his condition.

At different times in June, Whistler's poor body condition was noted by five different people including my Vet and farrier. Prior to messaging ECIR in July, Lorna and I decided to increase his total daily food ration (18 lbs hay plus 2 lbs ration balancer) to free choice hay (in 1" and 1/2" nets) plus 2 lbs ration balancer. This certainly has helped.

But could there be something else going on? I went through my records to consider timelines over the past 3 years, focusing on weight, feed, exercise, housing, and daily routines. Lorna and I are also looking at improper saddle fit as a possible contributing factor to muscle wastage along topline. Whistler's daily routine has remained static during that time and he continues to have companions outside his dry lot fencing. In spring and fall we hack 3-4 days a week for a duration of 1 to 2.5 hours. During summer and winter months we ride when weather conditions allow. Up until June of 2020, Whistler had consumed a total daily food ration of 18-19 lbs (16-17 lbs hay plus 2 lbs carrier for supplements including soy hull pellets or Complete Timothy Balance Cubes). Hay ration was increased during cold winter temperatures as needed. Looking back at his weight even further to 2017, he maintained between 945 and 967 lbs. During the winter months of 2020, Whistler's heart girth dropped from 72" (January) to 71" (April) - not unusual. In spring he shed out with a shiny coat and good body condition. On June 9, he seemed thinner and his heart girth had decreased to 70.5", however his weight was recorded as 948 lbs. Nonetheless, I decided to increase his hay to 18 lbs making a total daily ration of 20 lbs. By June 19th, his body condition had markedly deteriorated and that's when Lorna and I increased hay to free choice plus 2 lbs of ration balancer daily. On July 14 his weight increased to 962 lbs and by July 24 he weighed in at 1008 lbs. As of August 11, Whistler's heart girth had increased to 71.5" and his weight was 1084 lbs. His bony parts are nicely covered and we consider his body condition score to be 5 (see photo album). During the months of July and August I recorded how much hay was put out each day (free choice) and how much he had consumed. We were hoping that he would self regulate food intake. For the month of July he consumed on average 25.5 lbs of hay (lowest daily intake - 10 lbs; highest - 31 lbs) plus 2 lbs ration balancer daily (27.5 lbs Total Daily Food Intake). In August he consumed an average of 26 lbs of hay per day (lowest daily intake 14 lbs; highest 44 lbs) plus 2 lbs ration balancer (28 lbs Total Daily Food Intake). Is this considered self-regulating?

Now Lorna and I are completely baffled. First, Are we overlooking or missing the cause of his poor body condition in light of the fact that weight loss was not an issue, tests were normal and other than muscle loss along topline there were no other clinical signs to identify the nature of his condition . Second, Why would a 14.3 hands horse require that much food (total hay plus ration balancer) to attain a good body condition when he ate so much less in the past to maintain that condition? Third, Is Whistler truly self regulating his intake of hay? It seems like he is at risk to becoming overweight. If we regulate hay intake once again would body condition deteriorate?

Lorna, please jump in with your thoughts.

--
Reta
Sept 7, 2017
Gananoque, ON, CA

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Reta%20and%20Whistler .

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=10035


Re: Grey Horse Melanoma and AAKG

Helen Connor
 

Gosh, her dedication to Tori is admirable! I don't know anything about hemp or CBD so I can only guess at her remarks about wanting to find the Swiss strain. Thank you, 12gates, for sharing this recipe and protocol. I've have already passed it to my friend with the grey horses that have melanomas, DSLD, IR and PPID. 
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Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR
Member since May 2017
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847

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