Date   

Re: Increasing Jiaogulan dose advice

Jeanne Q
 

Dr. Kellon, just so I am clear, the 1/2 tsp per dose would be in addition to the J herb already in the Lamin Ox.  Correct?
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: Increasing Jiaogulan dose advice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Since adding to meals I would go with 1/2 tsp per dose (so 1 tsp/day total). Check for changes after 24 hours.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Increasing Jiaogulan dose advice

Jeanne Q
 

I would like to try and increase Glory's Jiaogulan dose to see if it helps her comfort level and help with new growth with her hoof slough.  She is on 1 scoop Lamin Ox 2X daily.  It is fed with her Stabul 1 morning and evening along with all of her other supps.  I purchased a bag of Uckele Jiaogulan to up her dosage but would like some advice on how to go about that.  I read in the files that you should start with adding 1/4 tsp to regular dose.  I also read the dosage would need to be higher if feeding with meals.  So since she still needs the Lamin Ox should I start adding 1/4 tsp. straight Jiaogulan to her feed am and pm along with the Lamin Ox or should I give the straight J to her separately in a syringe between meals?  But then that would mean she would be getting it 3X/day instead of the recommended 2.  How long after dosing should I check her gum color?

Thank you!
--
Jeanne Q MN 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Jeanne%20&%20Glory
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=241360


Re: New Member

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Yes weight tapes are not always accurate, but 850 seems more likely and you can use the weight tape to judge his weight fluctuations, just make sure you always measure to the exact same spot.  I pick the very base of the mane on the withers because it gives me a marker for measuring to, and even if the actual number is a bit off the relative variation in numbers is likely not too bad.  You can also try the Carroll-Huntington method, which is more accurate but takes 2 people...look for instructions on our website or in our files.

Arabs seem to be more fine-boned so a lower weight than other breeds of horses that are the same size is probably not unusual.  I would judge by the ribs, can you faintly see them at certain angles or when he is moving around and playing?  I wouldn't want to see them all the time, but you should see a hint of them now and again when he bends or stretches.  That is the body condition I personally aim for with my IR horse.  He is 15.1 hands and approx 950 lbs (although due to be taped again!), and I can see a hint of ribs, but he is heavier boned than an Arab, too. 

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Dry Lot questions

Helen Connor
 

US customers can find a similar ball at  https://www.chicksaddlery.com/slow-feed-happy-hay-ball  on sale. I can't see any real difference, though in the US, the green color is not available.

 
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR

--
Helen Connor and Blessing (IR/PPID)
Scappoose, OR
Member since May 2017
Case History:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Helen%20and%20Blessing
Photo Album:  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6847


Re: Hoof pain

Kirsten Rasmussen
 
Edited

Pea gravel is good, but if soles are very thin it can be uncomfortable.  That usually means the horse will benefit from padded boots.  Her trim certainly looks much better since April, but you can request markups from Lavinia for the specific advise you wanted.

The flaring in her heels could be from laminitis, heel walls being left to long, and/or inadequate mineral balancing.  I wonder if the mineral balancing should be reviewed, your Case History doesn't say you have had this done but it has not been updated for a year now. 

After dealing with flaring and whiteline separation for years, this is what worked for me:

1. I noticed a huge different in wall flaring when I finally got Shaku on a mineral balanced diet, his hooves went down 1 hoof boot size when the tighter wall growth reached the ground. 

2. I also made sure his walls were never more than 1/4" max above his sole plane (and ideally less since Dr Bowker says walls should only take between 5-20% of the weight of the horse, the remainder should be supported by the base of the hoof--use padded hoof boots to support the thin soles as needed), plus I gently bevel the heel area to reduce outer wall contact.

3. I put him on lower sugar hay to reduce laminitic flare-ups.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Moving my horse from North Carolina to Iowa - Could use all the help/ideas/opinions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Grain won't influence the ACTH level. I'd definitely retest next week to make sure you can increase his dose before the move if you need to.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Insulin

 

Pat, I don’t know if I’m the only one having trouble with the CH link but I’m thinking it may have something to do with your signature page.  If you go to the link and check your Display Name, it includes a link to your CH.  That should be changed to say ‘Pat and Frigga’ or whatever you want to go by.  The CH link should not be on that line.  You’ve put the CH link in your signature, which is great, but it somehow picks up the information on your Display name and uses that, instead of the link I gave you before.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Moving my horse from North Carolina to Iowa - Could use all the help/ideas/opinions

Lexie & Gus
 

Thank you, Eleanor!! I just got done updating everything I knew and made Gus a case file :) 

He was last tested in July and tested at 36.6. Unfortunately, at the time, the barn manager had switched his grain to a grain with over double the NSC of his regular feed without informing me. I immediately switched him back to his other feed and he started to to shed out his coat and look better overall.

Would it be too soon to retest him? The vet is coming out next week for a chiro appointment and I'd be happy to retest at that time. Or should I wait until after the move and retest to see how he is doing then?

Thanks again for your time!!

Lexie
--
Lexie in Iowa 2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Lexie%20and%20Gus


Re: Insulin

Amadadelsol@...
 
Edited

Thank you Dr kellon. The CH was converted to a PDF and should be ok now. We just rechecked insulin this week. Original test was 6 weeks ago right before we started Metformin and it came back 86 and the one from 8/25 just came back as 66. We were planning to recheck in 6 weeks. We have decided to recheck the ACTH in January which is when the original test was done in 2019 so we are comparing apples to apples. My vet felt the seasonal rise might skew the numbers right now.
Her weight is 825 so it would appear that she is under-dosed. Perhaps I should be giving her 22 per day?
--
Pat and Frigga
Monkton, VT
2020
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Frigga


Re: Chronic Laminitis/Founder

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Additionally:

Regarding previous bloodwork, I see you do not have the results in your Case History.  If you could get the actual numbers and the lab reference/'normal' range from your vet and add them, that would help us.  Even though the testing was not done as we recommend, that does not mean it is useless.  Just clarify in the notes the testing conditions (ie, fasted, oral sugar, etc)

Typically if a horse is fasted before insulin, it will be low and you could get a false negative.  However, if the vet administers sugar syrup on a fasted horse, it will be high and this is what is often used as a diagnostic test.  It is not clear whether your labs were done after an oral sugar infusion. 

But, what we are most interested in is his baseline insulin on a full belly (non fasting) of his current diet (no added sugar syrup) because that will tell you more about how he is doing on a daily basis.  We then compare those results to what was normal and abnormal for a herd of a couple hundred ponies on pasture.  If he falls into the abnormal range, then we have a fairly good indication that he is insulin resistant and needs tight diet control.  The actual baseline non-fasted insulin number will tell you how close to the laminitis danger zone he is at his current management, which is more practical information for you than knowing his insulin levels in a fasted +/- sugar-infused state.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Moving my horse from North Carolina to Iowa - Could use all the help/ideas/opinions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Lexie,

You will get an official welcoming and orienting letter soon - including about posting a case history. It will be very helpful once you get that done.

Your move time corresponds with the most dangerous time of year for a PPID horse. I don't know when you did your recheck of ACTH but if it was  more than a month ago you should get another one soon to make sure his ACTH is well controlled, preferably in the 20s. Also start him on 10 mL/day of APF starting a week before and for a week or two after the move. This will help him deal with the stress.

Definitely get him a grazing muzzle which only allows very limited access to the grass and can be sealed completely if necessary.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Newly diagnosed with PPID How do I interpret hay analysis?

Eleanor Kellon, VMD
 

Hi Mary Ann,

I agree you need to repeat ACTH and get an insulin with it. Her glucose is way too high also and she is extremely high risk for another bout of laminitis.

When you get a chance please get a full set of hoof photos as described in the Wiki. From what I can see of her feet she needs extensive changes to her trim.
--
Eleanor in PA

www.drkellon.com 
EC Owner 2001


Re: Update on Flirt

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Roger, it is so good to hear of Flirt's progress!

His feet look much better but given how sore he looks standing still, like Lorna advised I would not be handwalking just yet.  He looks like he would be still hobbling around slowly.  Allowing him to move at will is probably better for nonow,  unless he is noticeably more comfortable with boots/pads on and you use them for handwalking. 

Also, given his continued high insulin and looking at your new hay analysis, I STRONGLY recommend soaking it for 1 hr in cold water, then rinsing it off before feeding for the best outcome for Flirt  That will help remove some of that excess iron (it is very high for an IR horse) that Dr Kellon wants you to shake or rinse off before feeding, and it will reduce the ESC even further and can only help Flirt feel better.  I too have a hay that is around 7% ESC+starch and the difference in my horse when I soak it is notable.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Newly diagnosed with PPID How do I interpret hay analysis?

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Mary Ann,

One of our previous volunteers wrote this about a first pass evaluation of hay:

I look first for the ESC and starch, because I really hate soaking hay. [These combined should be <10%, as fed, for an insuli-resistant horse, although sensitive horses will do better on <7%].  Next, I check the ADF and NDF - if they are higher than 40% (reduces digestibilty) and 60% (reduces palatability) I might think twice. (or I might not, depending on the hay season and whatever else is available)   Protein should be 8% to 11%; if it is 6% to 7.9%, I can deal with that with protein supplements, but any lower than 6% is out. (because the hay is likely no more than "grass skeletons", as Dr. Gustafson says). 
I would add to that, look for iron less than 100 ppm, or as low as possible (500 ppm is toxic).  Also watch for high protein, which could be due to nitrates and will require a nitrate test to see if the levels are dangerous for a horse.

Looking at your hay, it looks safe to feed unsoaked to an IR horse (the ESC is very low which means that amount of starch is probably still safe to feed), but protein and a few minerals will need a bit of supplementing.  Iron is low, but manganese is high so the trace minerals Zn and Cu will need to be increased to balance with the manganese.  There is a list of ECIR approved hay balancers in our files than can advise you on what you need to add to balance the hay for optimum equine health, and they can work with you to find an appropriate supplement(s).  I see you've done this in the past and have her on good supplements already, so it's probably a matter of your usual balancer fine-tuning them for the new hay.

I looked through your Case History...wow, Rosie has been through a LOT!!!  I did see that she is due to be retested for ACTH since she's been on Prascend for over 3 weeks now.  You want to make sure that dose of Prascend has brought her ACTH into the normal range.  I strongly recommend testing her baseline insulin at the same time.  She has a lot of the signs of an insulin resistant horse, and being an Arab is another red flag.  The PPID panel/package at the University of Guelph will analyze ACTH, insulin, and glucose.  The baseline insulin should be done non-fasting with hay/pasture only that day and at least 4 hours after her first meal of the day.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Dry Lot questions

Lorna Cane
 

If Canadian members are interested, these hay balls are on sale now, here:
https://www.pleasantridge.ca/index.php/hay-and-play-ball.html

--

Lorna  in Eastern  Ontario
2002
Check out FAQ : https://www.ecirhorse.org/FAQ.php


Re: Update on Flirt

Kim Leitch
 

LJ,
Tylenol (Acetaminophen) is not an NSAID. it is a pain reliever, but not anti-inflamitory.
--
Kim 10-2014

Clover, SC

Grits and Dually: IR; Bella: PPID, IR; and Eeyore (deceased, but not PPID related)

Case History https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Kim%20and%20Grits%20-%20Eeyore%20-%20Dually

Photo album Grits https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=1314

Photo album Eeyore https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=6586&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Dually https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=9046&p=Name,,,20,1,0,0
Photo album Bella https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=64978




Re: Insulin

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Pat,

It doesn't look like ACTH was tested with your recent insulins.  I would do both whenever you do bloodwork because PPID is progressive and regular increases in pergolide/Prascend are par for the course.  ACTH should be tested regularly, at a minimum before the seasonal rise in mid-summer, and again 3 weeks after any dosage increase.  If PPID is not fully controlled it only worsens the IR.

It sounds like she's doing well though, and it's great that your hay is low sugar!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Insulin

 
Edited

Hi Pat,
First of all, I think we are neighbors of sorts!

You uploaded a Pages version of your CH, which I can see fine but many others cannot.  If you print (or export) it to pdf and upload that pdf file, everyone will be able to access it.  Great that you signed up for the class and now you have a free balancing just when you need it most!

The CH link you posted didn’t take me where I hoped to land.  This should be the link to your folder which should contain (and probably does) all your files.  https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pat%20and%20Frigga
If you add this link to your signature, under Monkton, VT and 2020, we will be able to find everything you’ve posted.  Let me know if you need further help with your CH.  

eta- I think you used the correct link but it seems to have assimilated more into the link, making it so it did not work correctly for me.
--
Martha in Vermont
ECIR Group Primary Response
July 2012 
 
Logo (dec. 7/20/19), Tobit(EC) and Pumpkin, Handy and Silver (EC/IR)

Martha and Logo


 
 


Re: Timothy Pellets

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Hi Michelle,

Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes or TC Naturals Timothy Balance cubes are considered safe for horses with IR because they are guaranteed by the manufacturer that every batch will have ESC and starch combined <10%.  Other Timothy hay cubes can be safe for IR horses, too, but the manufacturer likely does not test every batch or aim to keep ESC+starch low, and is allowed a certain percentage of variation from the reported analysis on the feedbag....all that to say the ESC and starch combined can be >10%.  If your TB is not IR (or PPID that is difficult to control) I don't think it matters what type of Timothy hay cubes you feed him/her.  Just remember that the one other difference is that Ontario Dehy Timothy Balance cubes or TC Naturals Timothy Balance cubes are also mineral-balanced to form a complete feed, whereas other Timothy cubes are not.  If you are feeling small amounts to get supplement in, it doesn't matter if they are mineral balanced.

Your calorie question is best answered by comparing the guaranteed feed analysis on the 2 packages, or online.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

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