Date   

Re: Question for the Canadian folk

Lecia Martin
 


-- Kirsten   I took some photos for you but I will freely admit that I am technically challenged.  I have spent countless hours trying to figure out how to upload pictures, xrays etc. and am no farther ahead.   Leeanne uploaded my case history and my daughter does the updates when she comes home to visit. I can barely run my phone.  LOL. So can I email them to you privately or can you walk me thru the process.   I have read and re- read the instructions a million times and feel pretty stupid. I would love to know how to do this on my own as I have current xrays and hoof photos I would like to add,  as well as my other horse's case history.
Thanks,
Lecia Flyte and Flame
Alberta, Canada
Mar 2017
Flame Case History


Re: Vitamin E

 

Hi Susie, I'm not a veterinarian so I don't know the correct answer, but I do that when my horse resented with neurological symptoms one of the things my vet had me do was put him on 10,000 iu's of vit e daily for a while. We did eventually bring it down to 4000.
--
Cari Johnson
San Diego, CA
2019
Rio's Case History
Rio's Case Photos


Re: Hay analysis

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Sylvie,

Do you have a copy of the hay analysis that you can put into a photo album on the Case History sub-group?

Do you have an ingredient list for the BiAaMuGen?

Is there a guaranteed analysis for the Hoffman's Performance minerals?

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Amino acid- IR

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 
Edited

Hello Sylvie,

Welcome to the group! 

Easy keepers can be tough. To get weight off, you need to make sure you weigh everything that passes thru their lips so that the total daily intake doesn't exceed 1.5% to 2% of their ideal body weight. Less than that will cause the body to go into a starvation mode, where calories get conserved even more, making weight loss even more difficult. Exercise is a great addition, the more the better. Although EMS/IR horses tend to gain weigh easily, being overweight does not cause EMS/IR. Generally, QH are not a breed that is high on the list of IR-prone horses, but you need to treat every horse as an individual.

Amino acids aren't going to add weight in-and-of themselves but supplementing them isn't necessarily the answer to the hoof problems. You need to start by knowing what is in the diet your girl is already eating, then make sure to supplement both what is missing and balance out what is in excess. Pre/probiotics also won't help. This requires getting your hay analyzed, then supplementing appropriately based on the analysis. All hay is deficient in copper and zinc, which are major components in hoof health. Lysine and methionine are also important but won't help if you already have enough in the diet.

In order to give you the best advice, we really need you to create a case history for your girl so we have all the specifics available to answer your questions properly. Links to do this are found below. Creating a photo album with a full set of hoof photos would also help enormously. See the TRIM section below for more specifics and links.

The remainder of this message is our Official Welcome, which contains a boat load of helpful information and links. Don't be daunted by the amount of info, just have a read thru and save the post for future reference as needed. Click on any of the text in blue to take you to more in-depth explanations. Please don't hesitate to ask if you get stuck at any point.


The ECIR Group provides the best, most up to date information on Cushing's (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). Please explore our website where you'll find tons of great information that will help you to quickly understand the main things you need to know to start helping your horse. Also open any of the links below (in blue font) for more information/instructions that will save you time.

Have you started your Case History? If you haven't done so yet, please join our case history sub-group. We appreciate you following the uploading instructions so your folder is properly set up with the documents inside. Go to this CH message with info on how to use various devices and forms. If you have any trouble, just post a message to let us know where you are stuck.

Orienting information, such as how the different ECIR sections relate to each other, message etiquettewhat goes where and many how-to pages are in the Wiki. There is also an FAQs on our website that will help answer the most common and important questions new members have. 

Below is a general summary of our DDT/E philosophy which is short for Diagnosis, Diet, Trim and Exercise.

 

DIAGNOSIS: There are two conditions dealt with here: Cushings (PPID) and Insulin Resistance (IR). These are two separate issues that share some overlapping symptoms. An equine may be either PPID or IR, neither or both. While increasing age is the greatest risk factor for developing PPID, IR can appear at any age and may have a genetic component. Blood work is used for diagnosis as well as monitoring the level of control of each.

PPID is diagnosed using the Endogenous ACTH test, while IR is diagnosed by testing non-fasting insulin and glucose.

The fat-derived hormone leptin is also usually abnormally elevated in insulin resistance but because there are many other things which can lower or increase leptin ECIR is not recommending routine testing for this hormone. Leptin is the hormone that says "stop eating".

In Europe, adiponectin is tested instead of leptin. Adiponectin helps regulate glucose and fat burning, and maintain insulin sensitivity. Low levels are associated with EMS. It has come to be preferred over leptin because it is not influenced by things like weight or exercise, and also because it was the only factor other than insulin levels that predicted laminitis risk

*Before calling your vet to draw blood for tests, we suggest saving time and wasted money by reading these details and then sharing them with your vet so that everyone is on the same page regarding correct testing and protocols.

*Please remember to request copies of the results of all the tests done rather than just relying on verbal information. Your vet should be able to email these to you. If you have previous test results, please include those as well. All should go in your CH, but if you are having any trouble with the CH, just post in the messages for now. 

Treatment: IR is a metabolic type - not a disease - that is managed with a low sugar+starch diet and exercise (as able). The super-efficient easy keeper type breeds such as minis, ponies, Morgans, Arabs, Rockies are some of the classic examples. PPID is a progressive disease that is treated with the medication pergolide. Some, but not all, individuals may experience a temporary loss of appetite, lethargy and/or depression when first starting the medication. To avoid this "pergolide veil" (scroll down for side effects), we recommend weaning onto the drug slowly and the use of the product APF. The best long term results are seen when the ACTH is maintained in the middle of the normal range at all times, including during the annual seasonal rise. To accomplish this, the amount of medication may need to increase over time. Neither condition is ever "cured", only properly controlled for the remainder of the equine's life. If your partner is both PPID and IR then both medication and diet management will be needed. 

DIET: Almost all commercial feeds are not suitable - no matter what it says on the bag. Please see the International Safe Feeds List for the safest suggestions.

No hay is "safe" until proven so by chemical analysis. The diet that works for IR is:

  • low carb (less than 10% sugar+starch)
  • low fat (4% or less) 
  • mineral balanced  

We use grass hay, tested to be under 10% ESC + starch, with minerals added to balance the excesses and deficiencies in the hay, plus salt, and to replace the fragile ingredients that are lost when grass is cured into hay, we add ground flax seed and Vitamin E. This diet is crucial for an IR horse, but also supports the delicate immune system of a PPID horse. 

*Until you can get your hay tested and balanced we recommend that you soak your hay and use the emergency diet (scroll down for it).  The emergency diet is not intended for long term use, but addresses some of the most common major deficiencies. Testing your hay and getting the minerals balanced to its excesses and deficiencies is the best way to feed any equine. If you absolutely cannot test your hay and balance the minerals to it, or would like to use a "stop gap" product until you get your hay balanced, here's a list of "acceptable" ration balancers

There is a lot of helpful information in the start here folder so it is important you read all the documents found there. The emergency diet involves soaking your untested hay for an hour in cold water or 30 minutes in hot water. This removes up to 30% of the sugar content, but no starch. Starch is worse than sugar since it converts 100% to glucose while sugar only converts 50%, so starch causes a bigger insulin spike. Make sure you dump the soaking water where the equine(s) can't get to it. 

What you don't feed on the IR diet is every bit as, if not more important than, what you do feed! No grass. No grain. No sugary treats, including apples and carrots. No brown/red salt blocks which contain iron (and sometimes molasses) which interferes with mineral balancing, so white salt blocks only. 

No products containing molasses. No bagged feeds with a combined sugar and starch of over 10% or starch over about 4%, or fat over about 4%. Unfortunately, even bagged feeds that say they are designed for IR and/or PPID equines are usually too high in sugar, starch and/or fat. It’s really important to know the actual analysis and not be fooled by a name that says it is suitable for IR/PPID individuals.

We do not recommend feeding alfalfa hay to IR/PPID equines as it makes many of them laminitic. Although it tends to be low in sugar, many times the starch is higher and does not soak out. Additionally, protein and calcium are quite high, which can contribute to sore footedness and make mineral balancing very difficult.

TRIM: A proper trim is toes backed and heels lowered so that the hoof capsule closely hugs and supports the internal structures of the foot. Though important for all equines, it's essential for IR and/or PPID equines to have a proper trim in place since they are at increased risk for laminitis. After any potential triggers are removed from the diet, and in PPID individuals, the ACTH is under control, the realigning trim is often the missing link in getting a laminitic equine comfortable. In general, laminitic hooves require more frequent trim adjustments to maintain the proper alignment so we recommend the use of padded boots rather than fixed appliances (i.e. shoes, clogs), at least during the initial phases of treatment.

Sometimes subclinical laminitis can be misdiagnosed as arthritis, navicular, or a host of other problems as the animal attempts to compensate for sore feet. 

You are encouraged to make an album and post hoof pictures and any radiographs you might have so we can to look to see if you have an optimal trim in place. Read this section of the wiki for how to get a hoof evaluation, what photos are needed, and how to get the best hoof shots and radiographs.

EXERCISEThe best IR buster there is, but only if the equine is comfortable and non-laminitic. An individual that has had laminitis needs 6-9 months of correct realigning trims before any serious exercise can begin. Once the equine is moving around comfortably at liberty, hand walking can begin in long straight lines with no tight turns. Do not force a laminitic individual to move, or allow its other companions to do so. It will begin to move once the pain begins to subside. Resting its fragile feet is needed for healing to take place so if the animal wants to lay down, do not encourage it to get up. Place feed and water where it can be reached easily without having to move any more than necessary. Be extremely careful about movement while using NSAIDs (bute, banamine, previcox, etc.) as it masks pain and encourages more movement than these fragile feet are actually able to withstand. Additionally, NSAIDs (and icing) do not work on metabolic laminitis and long term NSAID use interferes with healing. Therefore, we recommend tapering off NSAIDs after the first week or so of use. If after a week's time your equine's comfort level has not increased, then the cause of the laminitis has not been removed and keeping up the NSAIDs isn't the answer - you need to address the underlying cause.

 

There is lots more information in our files and archived messages and also on our website. It is a lot of information, so take some time to go over it and feel free to ask any questions. If you are feeling overwhelmed, don't worry, you will catch on, and we are always here to help you! Once you have your case history uploaded, we can help you help your equine partner even better.

For members outside North America, there are country specific folders in the files and many international lists in the wiki to help you find local resources.

If you have any technical difficulties, please let us know so we can help you.


--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


Re: Accidental overdose of ALCAR

hdavis
 

On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 02:08 PM, Lavinia Fiscaletti wrote:
Hi Heather,

Can you please clarify: are you talking about Alcar:  acetyl- l-carnitine or L-arginine? They are two different things.

Alcar is dosed at 1g per 100lbs body weight.

As far as I'm aware, Stormy shouldn't have any issues.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


 Hello Lavinia,

I am asking about overdose of ALCAR as have her 25 grams by accident. ALCAR helps with pain for feet correct for horses that have had damage to feet from day years of being shod, high heels and even DDFT issues?  I thought u would try ALCAR for her to help with her pain.  But perhaps it is more of an issue with the cooler temps and damaged feet so maybe l-arginine would be better for her?

Glad to know she won’t have side effects from the overdose. 


Thanks again!!!
--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Hay analysis

sylvie laurin <sylvielaurin59@...>
 

As recommended by your group msn response to my incapacity to understand my hay result and my suspicion about an IR horse, blood to be done this week. 
Currently giving 
1. amino Hoffmans BiAaMGen supplements (Recommended by Hoffman’s nutritionist to help on weak hoof walls and sole) 
 2.  Hoffmans performance Minerals and Hay in slow feeder 
I am questioning the amino supplements and impact on IR horse???
Thank you for your help
Sylvie Laurin
Chertsey,Qc, Canada  

--
Sylvie Laurin
Chertsey, Qc, Canada


Re: Accidental overdose of ALCAR

Lavinia Fiscaletti
 

Hi Heather,

Can you please clarify: are you talking about Alcar:  acetyl- l-carnitine or L-arginine? They are two different things.

Alcar is dosed at 1g per 100lbs body weight.

As far as I'm aware, Stormy shouldn't have any issues.

--
Lavinia, George Too, Calvin (PPID) and Dinky (PPID/IR)
Nappi, George and Dante Over the Bridge
Jan 05, RI
Moderator ECIR


New Cushings Diagnosis in 19yo Haflinger mare

Goldiesmum
 

Hi everyone. 

I am new to the forum and found you through the laminitis group on FB. I have had my girl 14 years and she is a very good doer and can live on fresh air. I manage her weight as best I can but this week we have had a bit of scare with pulses felt in both front limbs.(she was immediately taken off the grass into a deep bedded stable and put on soaked hay). But she was diagnosed with Cushings 2 weeks ago and we are a week into having 1/2 a prascend tablet per day as she was a bit lethargic and not her usual self. Her blood test wasn't that high at 49 but high enough for the vet to want to start meds. I am really looking on and advice on general management. We also has spavin in both hocks which we manage through diet and exercise and bute for bad periods. She also lives out 24/7 on generally poor grass. 

Thank you! 
--
Amanda S
Scotland
Sep 2020


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

celestinefarm
 

Victoria, finally had a chance to look at your album and the hay analysis.  Agree that the analysis shows really high protein, is this grass hay? I would also be suspicious that it is high in nitrates.  The ESC and starch are well within acceptable range which is why the high protein is suspicious. You can call Equi Analytical tomorrow and ask them to do a nitrate test on that sample of hay. It's a $6 charge, they can do it relatively quick and at least you would have an answer. 
You do want to keep her away from the oak tree for reasons stated earlier. 
Something else you can try for her right now if she refuses to eat the Timothy Balance Cubes is Triple Crown's Safe Starch forage. It comes in a bale and you will want to weigh out the appropriate amount. She may be more willing to eat it. The Timothy balance cubes are cubed with beet pulp which for some equines is an acquired taste. It could be the reason she is refusing them. 
https://www.triplecrownfeed.com/products/safe-starch-forage/
If you can't find it asap, then another substitute is Green Meadows Equal Balance.

 Image result for green meadows equal balance
--These are temporary measures until you have a better handle on what is going on. What did your vet say? 
Dawn Wagstaff and Tipperary   

Saline, MI  2003

Tipperary Case History

Juniper Case history: https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Dawn%20and%20Juniper/Case%20history%20Juniper.pdf .


Accidental overdose of ALCAR

hdavis
 

Hello,

my mare Storm was accidentally overdosed with ALCAR today.  She was suppose to get 5 grams of L-arginine but was given 25 grams of ALCAR instead. Is this a concerned?  She only received one dose of this amount. Will she be ok?

just to clarify what is the correct dose for ALCAR for a horse who suffers from neuropathic pain?  I want to right it directly on the bag so this doesn’t happen again.

I will be using l-arginine for my horse who is susceptible to winter laminitis and the dose is 5 - 10 grams when given with her J herb twice a day.

Thanks in advance!

--
Heather
August 5, 2017, Brandon, Manitoba, Canada

Riosa Case History
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Heather%20and%20Riosa

 Photos

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=8819&p=pcreated,,,20,2,0,0  .


Storm

Case History



photos

 
 

 




Re: ESC vs WSC

 

I agree with Kirsten - you should dry these samples before submitting. For now, use the dry matter figures because that normalizes everything to the same standard. Interesting that soaking increases starch.


--

Kathleen (KFG in KCMO)

Director and Research Advisor, ECIR Group Inc.

Missouri, USA, 2005

https://scholar.google.com/citations?hl=en&user=3-I7UI0AAAAJ 

 


Amino acid- IR

sylvie laurin <sylvielaurin59@...>
 

Hi, 

as a Qhorse owner trying to find the balanced nutrition to a 14 years old mare easy keeper with a  good weight, a big belly, poor feet(thin wall/sole). 
I ride almost every second day, but I can’t seem to put the weight down. Pro/Pre biotic have not helped either. 
The Hoffman nutritionist suggests an amino acid supplement to help strengthen her feet. I question if it may trigger more weight leading to insulin problems. I will have a blood test but what is your opinion on amino acids and insulin metabolic disorder?
Thank you
Sylvie

--
Sylvie Laurin
Chertsey, Qc, Canada


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Victoria
 

She only started gnawing it on it yesterday because she did not want to eat the hay cubes and I didn't give her any hay. She has always been in that paddock for years and my entire property is surrounded by oaks, her paddock unfortunately is the safest. But literally I do get almost every leaf and acorn. Do you think that could have caused the IR? I will chicken wire around the tree.

--
Victoria
Smithtown, NY
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pippa/Pippa%20Case%20History.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253218



Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/message/243076

What to do for acorn induced laminitis.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Dr. Kellon - pinworms

richard
 

I suspect that my IR/PPID gelding, Cheyenne, has pinworms.   A few years ago I copied off treatment directions from this forum but obviously didn't get all the info.  The instructions were:
- Worm once with Strongid paste (pyrentel pamoate) or febendazole.
- Feed pyrental tartrate (Strongid T or EquiAid CW) daily for 3-4 months.
- Wash anus & underside of tail daily with warm water & Dawn. ****
- After washing, coat area with Vaseline.

**** Daily for how long??
And is this process still recommended?

Thanks in advance. 

Sue & Sunny & Cheyenne (both IR & PPID)
Northern California
2010


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Could the oak tree be the problem?  If she's eating it's bark, leaves and acorns? 

https://ecir.groups.io/g/main/topic/34106990#240357

I would block her access to it ASAP!  And make sure she can't get any leaves or acorns, raking them up is not enough unless you can be there 24/7 raking.

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Question for the Canadian folk

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

Do you have a photo of how the bell boots fit over the Cavellos you can post?  I can't imagine a small bell boot fitting over a size 4 Cavallo simple, so I'm just wondering how it looks.  I'd like to order bell boots too but am not sure what size...  Thanks!!

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Victoria
 

Hi, the vet just left. I uploaded the xrays in the album with link in signature (sorry poor quality until I get them emailed to me). Definitely nothing in her paddock besides a big oak tree. I rake a few leaves and any acorns a few times a day. We are adding gabapentin and bute in addition to the metformin and thyrozine. If we cannot get her more comfortable this week I do not want her to continue suffering. It has been a struggle just to get the meds into her without adding more problematic food.
--
Victoria
Smithtown, NY
2020

https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/files/Pippa/Pippa%20Case%20History.pdf
https://ecir.groups.io/g/CaseHistory/album?id=253218



Re: ESC vs WSC

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

As Dr Kellon said in a round-about way, take the % Dry Matter, divide it by 100, then multiply that factor with the dry matter values for WSC, starch, etc to get the "as fed" amount.

So for your "B top Straw" unsoaked:
Dry Matter (%)= 89.90
WSC reported as DM (%) = 15.91
Starch reported as DM (%) = 2.83

As Fed WSC = 89.90/100×15.91 = 14.30
As fed starch = 89.90/100×2.83 = 2.54

If you calculate starch as fed for all 3 hays you'll see something is not right.  It should NOT change with soaking and it should be reasonably consistent unless your sampling was not consistent.  I don't trust these NIR analyses, especially not for the soaked hay.  Doing NIR on a wet sample might not provide good results because NIR will not be calibrated for high water content in grass hay.  The samples need to be dried more, to about 85-90% Dry Matter.   You should ask the lab about the reliability of these results.


--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   


Re: New pretrim pictures posted for mark-ups #photo

Kirsten Rasmussen
 

It's so great to see how far the trim has come, Judy, especially to see the progress over a few months thanks to your regular posts!  With your rasping between trims it sure seems like there's not nearly as much for your farrier to do this time around...

--
Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
 
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

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