Re: Help for Teeny Desperate for feedback

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Cornell's panel doesn't include free T3, although in this case it doesn't really matter as far as we know.

If the metformin is causing oral ulceration that could definitely be backing her off eating.  Metabolically though, no.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Help for Teeny Desperate for feedback


My vet wants to do Cornell’s thyroid panel instead of Michigan State. Can you tell me what I need to say to justify using a Michigan State?

Also, I’m wondering if her metformin dose may be contributing to her lack  of appetite possibly?

Thank You 
Terri Jennings with Teeny, Finn and Elliott
Arcata, CA
Joined 2019

General Advice

Carrie Bronner

Good Morning all! This is my 1st post since I only just joined the group this morning. I have an 18 yr old mare that I suspect is IR. We purchased her 3 years ago, when we got her she was extremely obese but hadn't been ridden in probably 5 years and was just turned out to pasture. The boarding barn we were at had limited pasture so she was fed mostly grass hay and a minimal amount of Tribute Kalm N'Ez. She was ridden 3 to 4 times a week, became fit and was doing well. We moved to a friends barn the following spring and all the horses there are pasture kept 24/7. My 2 mares were on a 15 acre pasture and it soon became apparent that she could not handle the grass. She developed large fatty deposits and had off and on lameness issues. We moved again but this time to a barn with limited pasture again. She is getting a cup of Tribute Essential K (with a mineral supplement) 2x a day and is getting soaked grass hay. She is not getting the exercise she needs mainly because my daughter is 17 (enough said) and I had spinal surgery so was not able to ride her myself. I am just now back in the saddle so will start exercising her again. My question is even though she is on limited grass, eating soaked grass hay and on such a small quantity of feed we can't seem to get the fatty deposits to go away. I called the vet this morning so that we could get some blood tests done. From reading on the website ( it looks like we need to measure the level of endogenous adrenocorticotrophic hormone, do a Throid-Releasing (TRH) Stimulation Test, Cortisol Rhythm Test, obtain a non-fasting glucose, insulin and leptin. Is this correct? What else should we be looking for? Also is her feed ok or should I stop feeding the Essential K since the combined NSC and starch are 12.5%? Maybe use beet pulp to feed the supplement? Thanks in advance for all advice. I have never had a horse with this issue before and just want to make sure I am doing all I can for her.

Indiana, United States
Joined Sept. 8, 2020

Re: Dx Question

LJ Friedman

-- I believe if you do a search on the website of thyroid L,the only correct reason to use it is for weight loss.???So I’m thinking you’ll probably get some feedback to stop it.?? ( i think im correct)
LJ Friedman  Nov 2014 Vista,   Northern  San Diego, CA

Jesse and majestic ‘s Case History 
Jesse's Photos


Re: Dx Question

Suzanne and Valentino

Hi everyone,

I have responded to my original thread so that no one has to repeat themselves. :-)

Valentino had his metabolic panel redrawn and I have updated his case file. 

My vet said that per the bloodwork that Valentino is negative for Cushings, is Insulin Resistance (leptin high) and hypothyroid (Rx of ThyroL-1 scoop 2x/day) She also said that his ACTH is normal because the "low seasonal correction is 27-105."

Valentino continues to look amazing, continues in his high level work and has no signs or symptoms of EMS. I want to keep it that way and just do the right thing! What should I do?

Thank you in advance for all your help.
Suzanne C in VA 2020

Re: Aged Pregnant Mare help!!!!

Sherry Morse

Hi Marcie,

You'll be getting a full welcome message shortly but in the meantime the most important thing for you to do right now is breathe.

Now a couple of questions that will help us help you - how pregnant is Joy now?  Is there a reason you've been feeding her chasteberry for years? 

It would be really helpful for us if you could add pictures of her feet (directions on how to take those images will be in your welcome letter) as well as the xrays to a photo album in the Case History sub-group.  Did the bute help at all when you gave it to her?  How long ago was this and is she off of it now?

How long between her trim and her becoming sore again?  We prefer that horses remain barefoot and have more frequent trims rather than using shoes because unless the shoes are being attached to a properly aligned hoof they may not be providing any actual help.

As far as her feed program - if she is laminitic due to PPID the feed you are using is above our recommended ESC+starch recommendation as well as above our fat recommendation.  The Cortaflx has an alfalfa base which is also questionable for a sensitive horse. 

I'm not aware of any reason the vet can't run ACTH, glucose and insulin numbers now - even though we are in the seasonal rise you can still interpret the ACTH numbers in light of that situation.  Dr. Kellon will hopefully chime in with more information on that for you.

Re: Question for the Canadian folk

Kirsten Rasmussen

Hi Lecia,

I started a new message about your photo album so we don't clutter up Heather's post.

Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

WAS: Question for the Canadian folk / NOW: Lecia & Flyte's photo album

Kirsten Rasmussen

Hi Lecia,

I see you have a photo album for Flyte.  This is the link to it:

You can add the link to your signature and then you will have an easy shortcut for finding your album.  To do this:

1) Go to this link to amend your auto-signature:

2) Scroll down to the signature window, and under your name paste the link to the photo album that I have provided above, then hit "Enter/Return" on your keyboard to add a line and to turn your link blue.

3) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE!

Now the link is in your signature and you can click on it to find Flyte's photo album.  You may need to start a "New Topic" as if you are posting a new question just to see your signature links and click on them, but you don't need to actually hit "Send".

In her photo album you should see some blue buttons at the top, including an "Add Photos" button.  Click on it, then in the new window that opens click on the blue "Browse" button.  This is where it is tricky because you need to know where the photos are saved so you can navigate to them on your computer/phone/etc.  This is usually where people need on-site help, like a teenager that is more tech savy...  Assuming you find your photos and have selected them, and they have all appeared in the window above the Browse button, you should be able to click on the blue "Add" button to finish and then wait for them to upload and appear in your album.

I hope that helps!

We can help you set up a new photo album for Flame, too, but see if you can manage the above stuff first.  One thing about this platform is that it gets easier with time.   I was lost when I started but by spending lots of time in here and gradually clicking on different things I started to understand it better.  It's all about having time to explore it as it's not an overnight learning experience by any means.

Kirsten and Shaku (IR) - 2019
Kitimat, BC, Canada
ECIR Group Moderator
Shaku's Case History  
Shaku's Photo Album   

Re: Difficulty posting CH in folder for both horses

Sherry Morse

Hi Marsha,

Right now it doesn't look like you have any documents posted in your folder.  Normally what we would ask for someone with 2 horses is that they have one main folder named "Human and Horse1 and Horse2" and then within that folder have a Case History for each horse.  If you then add hay analysis or other documents related to a specific horse it's sometimes easier to create a sub-folder for each one but that's a step further down the road.

Do you have your Case History saved on your device in a place you can locate it?  That's the very first step of what you need to do. 

Then you need to go to your Case History folder ( and click on the "+New" button which will open a drop down list.

In the drop down list click on "Upload File" and then in the dialog box you'll need to click the browse button.

Navigate to the saved file (that's why you need to know where it is) and click on it, then click "Open" in that dialog box.  That will bring you back to the upload dialog box where you will click on the "Add" button and then your file will be in the Case History folder.

If you get stuck in that process let us know where you are getting stuck so we'll know where you need help.

Difficulty posting CH in folder for both horses


Hi!  I have been having trouble getting my CH's posted.  I am using a tablet and perhaps that is part of the problem?  Your site is knowledgeable and supportive to helping our horses and I am appreciative of your help!  I am afraid I have posted things incorrectly and feel I may need to start over. Thank you!!
Buzzem TN  2017
Marsha B

Re: Finding the right dose of Prascend

Megan and Reign

Thanks for the suggestion, Kirsten. I decided to skip the fig, although the amount of WSC+starch in his hay is less than 6% and he only gets the grass that tries to grow around the edges of his paddock, so he may be able to manage a daily fig. I’ll go back to it if I can’t find something else that works. He took his pill in a peanut butter and ground flax treat yesterday. Here’s hoping.

2019, Gig Harbor, Washington

Aged Pregnant Mare help!!!!


Hello all. I'm new to this group.

I have a 25 yr old mare -- I bottled raised her mother, and she has spent her entire life here, and is so precious to me.  We've been trying to get a foal from her to carry on her legacy, and finally this year we were successful. My vet had no issues with breeding her, as she looks like a 15 yr old mare, has a toned and "young" uterus (she has had 1 foal, for a friend, several years ago).  This past winter when she haired up A LOT, I didn't think a lot of it, because here in Houston we have had some cold winters, some mild, and I can always tell how cold a winter will be by how much the horses hair up -- and all of them haired up more than normal.

Joy has been getting a tablespoon of chasteberry powder at every feeding for years.

She started to get fussy about her feed about the time she got pregnant.  She lost the long winter hair but kept the shorter winter hair; again I wasn't too concerned as all the horses hung onto their hair longer (we had cold nights much later this year than usual).  However, when she came up "ouchy" a week or so before her 120 day ultrasound, I was concerned. I had spent a month with a shedding blade at every feeding, with the barn aisle looking like a snowstorm had hit every time.  When we went to the vet, he xrayed her feet and she indeed has some rotation (he didn't tell me how much).  I got a copy of the xrays for my farrier who was coming 7 days later.  In the meantime the vet had me giving her 1g of Bute a couple of times a day.

I called my farrier. The vet had recommended lily pads, which confused my farrier.  He bought some to show me, but we ended up with a plastic pressure pad under a normal shoe and he shortened her toe quite a bit.  She was immediately sound after the shoes.  However, 2 weeks ago she got sore again.  I've put an ice boot on her right front leg (the one with the least amount of rotation, but the intensely sore foot right now) which she hates and I don't see much improvement.

When the original rotation was discovered we immediately put her on Triumph Safe Choice Special Care by Nutrena (per my vet recommendation) and coastal hay (which she had always been on); switched from Nutrena Triump Senior and a 12% dry mix. 

I need help.  The mare is pregnant and my vet says he can't do the Cushings test until after she foals (but I'm betting that she's positive). She's getting 1/4c of Chasteberry powder daily in her feed, along with red raspberry leaves.  I tried a 25 day sample of Equinety but didn't see much difference so I didn't keep it up. I am giving her CortaFlx, 1 oz per feeding.

I would love some advice!  I'm hoping the issue with the soreness right now is that the plastic pad stretched, and once the farrier resets her next week she will be OK again.  Should she be put in a heart bar shoe instead?  Or something else?

This is my baby, and she's in foal with my next generation of her line.  I can't stand the thought of her being in pain, I hate seeing it in her eyes.  I need to do what's right for her but I'm hoping that someone can give me some hope that I can get her past this. She's never been lame a day in her life before this.
Marcie Fessler
Houston, Texas
September 2020

Re: New Poll - Important #poll-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Yes, please.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: Question for the Canadian folk - now photos

Sherry Morse

Hi Lecia,

Well you already have a photo album so that's half the battle right there -

If you can add that to your signature that would be great.  To do that:

1) Go to this link:

2) Look at the bottom of that page for the window where you typed your name and location.

3) Add the link to your folder and then make sure you make it "live". Adding a space after your link or hitting enter on your keyboard will turn it blue.

4) IMPORTANT: Scroll to the bottom and hit SAVE!

Then to add photos to the album:

1) Click on the "+Add Photos" at the top
2) Once the dialog box opens click on the "Browse" button
3) Navigate to the folder where your photos are saved on your device
4) Click on the photo you want to upload and the click on the "Open" button in that window
5) That will bring you back to the upload dialog box where you can click on the "Add" button to add the photo to the album

If any of that doesn't make sense let us know where you're having a problem and we can help walk you through it.

Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice


I don't use and recommend much, but, Triple Crown makes an AWESOME ground flax (nothing else just flax). 

It has a two year shelf life if stored appropriately.  And around here it is reasonable ($30 for 25 pounds I'm thinking)

Pal & Savvy
N. Alabama
Aug 2013
Case History 

Re: New Poll - Important #poll-notice

Sherry Hite

Do you want those of us who soak our hay to respond with our “after soaking” numbers?
Sherry & Pepper, August 2015, No. Calif


Case History:

Photo Album:  .



Re: Concerned and Seeking Advice


Barbara, I also have a Welsh Section C pony. When he arrived he was put in a small pasture. In four months he had gained 120 pounds. *A pound a day* There were also skin allergies. Fortunately through this group's protocol, that weight gain and allergic issues have been corrected. 
Your little beauty is in the right place to receive improved health. We will be following your progress!
Bonnie and Lad
North Ontario
Dec 2008

New Poll - Important #poll-notice

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

As you all know, we do not consider fructan - a component of NSC and WSC - when evaluating the likely safety of a hay but recommendations to limit NSC rather than ESC are still very common elsewhere.

If you have a hay analysis and are safely (no laminitis flares) feeding the hay, please answer the question:

What is the NSC of your hay?  [NSC = WSC + starch]


See Who Responded

Re: Current Sinking Founder- 7yr Pony

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

Both the metformin and the NSAIDs (bute and Banamine) can cause oral ulcers; the NSAIDs stomach ulcers (and colonic) as well - not to mention kidney damage, restricted circulation, delayed healing, impeded abscess drainage. Her feet clearly show chronic laminitis but no changes that couldn't be rehabed. Toes need to come back.

  You could ask your vet about a trial of omeprazole for possible gastric ulcers. If syringing in metformin, be sure to rinse the mouth thoroughly. Use Milk of Magnesia as a carrier for bute instead of water.

IMO the pain meds are doing more harm than good. They just don't work that well for endocrine-related laminitis pain and side effects are significant. We see better results with Jiaogulan or Jiaogulan + Devil's Claw to start. She may have neuropathic pain as well since this is a chronic situation.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

Re: ALCAR questions

Eleanor Kellon, VMD

The dose is 1 g/100 lbs of body weight. You can divide it between meals.  More isn't harmful but it may not help, especially with cold induced pain.  The ALCar helps with neuropathic pain which is pain that is exaggerated due to changes in the nerves and spinal cord. Those changes have been documented in horses with chronic laminitis.

Yes, it's safe long term.

I don't recall any horses whose pain has responded that quickly. ALCar does have other effects, particularly in improving muscle function. Do you know what the horse side of his parentage was? I'm wondering if he has a myopathy that it is helping.

Don't worry about it masking pain. If he's limping, he still feels pain. It only helps specifically with neuropathic pain.
Eleanor in PA 
EC Owner 2001

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